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Contradictions, Plot holes between the Trilogies

#136 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 09:27 AM

QUOTE (rosenrot @ Aug 27 2007, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Kurgan's quite convinced of his opinions so I see no reason to continue our "point, counterpoint". It only works if both parties are detached enough to admit they might not be 100% right in all things. His responses are getting too repetitive and predictable, it's like arguing with a broken record.

In any event, I've said my piece; I and a few others pointed out most of Kurgan's "plot holes" are just personal beefs of his. Sure, there are about 6 or so indefensible holes, but no film is perfect, and I'm content to let them be as they fail to affect my enjoyment of the 6 films.

Have fun doing whatever it is you are trying to do here. I now remember why I don't bother with Star Wars themed forums.


He's gone now, so it's safe to retort so it will look like I won! (Just kidding, I kind of forgot about this for awhile.. hehe).

rosenrot, you completely missed the point.

Is it "my opinion" that an inconsistency exists in a film series, or an actual fact?

Do I need to be open to the possibility that the movies I watched are actually different than the ones someone else are watching?

Nowhere did I state that movies needed to be "perfect" (much less the Star Wars movies). George Lucas and more than a few Star Wars fans claim that the "six part saga" flows together, that it is really meant to be seen as "one long film" and so forth. More than a few fans have claimed publically that there are "no contradictions or plot holes" in the saga, or demanded that these be presented, as if they don't exist.

All Lucas had to do to avoid many of the mistakes he made was to re-watch his own danged films again, take some notes and use that to create a "writer's bible" (even if only for himself to refer to over the course of the next 10 years while creating the PT). He has enough money and manpower he could have hired some lackeys to do it for him if he didn't want to do it himself.


Declaring that all but six or so of the things I listed were merely "personal beefs" of mine is simply ridiculous. The things I've mentioned are in the movies, and the vast majority of the things I mentioned were not even first noticed by me. I don't see people mass-bashing or questioning ChefElf (perhaps because they realize that as the creator of the site, that would be tactless, or maybe they see that he has a point?), yet he mentions several of the things I do, though in a more humorous fashion.

Nowhere am I saying that the presence of these flaws, mistakes, gaffes, plot holes, contradictions need ruin your enjoyment of the films. Rather, I'm saying that IF the claims of the apologists were true, then these holes and problems should not exist. If their enjoyment of the movies is predicated on there NOT being any problems, then yes, these would cause a problem.

I can "enjoy" the PT as a set of sci fi movies despite the flaws. That's the ONLY way I can enjoy them. I can't enjoy them as a well written backstory for the OT, because they simply aren't that.

But here again I am defending my opinions from people who would insinuate that because I can see Lucas' mistakes therefore I hate him or his films. The only Star Wars film I could really say I "hated" (in any sense of the word, which is nowhere close to real hatred, like of evil or something) is Episode I, because it's really just a boring film and shoddy addition to the series, full of silly fluff and dullness (except for the end, which is partly ruined by too much slapstick).

Noticing plot holes is not a sign of insanity or hatred of Star Wars. But far too many apologists seem to think that enjoying the PT is predicated on either pretending the flaws don't exist or having a pile of excuses ready to explain them away.

One thing the apologists don't seem to be willing to do is say "yeah, you're right, it is inconsistent, but I am just going to relax and enjoy it anyway.. it's just a movie." Instead they would rather go "you're just some jealous idiot, here, let me come up with some excuses why these holes are not really holes at all!" I will admit that coming up with excuses is a "fun exercise" sometimes, but let's face it, if we think that our excuses are actually what Lucas was thinking when he created it, and therefore the original criticisms are not valid, is just fooling ourselves.


If Lucas did not intend to create the backstory to the OT with the prequels, he would be fine, but he set himself up for this kind of analysis, so it's his own fault, not mine, ChefElf's or any other person's for noticing the places where the movies don't match up.

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This post has been edited by KurganX: 31 August 2007 - 09:35 AM

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#137 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 12:22 PM

Nice comment Kurgan, you're right about die hard fans. They fell in love with the originals, it's called culture worship. And it's a bad thing because you stop thinking objectively.

At school once, some grad student was yamering on about some paper by some guy and accused him of culture worship. In the academic world it's a big offense apparently.

The new films were just bad films. Seriously, consistency aside, the films just sucked. They were boring and stupid. There was nothing good about them save the final laser sword fight in TPM. They weren't good SW films and they weren't good films. That's why it's such a let down.
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#138 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 01:54 PM

Actually there were a couple of good things about the PT:

1. John Williams' scores for all three easily trumped the OT's scores.
2. We get a real sense of the world the OT plays in.
3. Great scenes in each film, like Duel of the Fates in TPM, Birth of the Empire in AOTC, and Ruminations and the Opening Space Battle in ROTS.
4. We get a deeper look at the character of Anakin Skywalker, making his turn back to the light in ROTJ look less sudden and far less hokey.
5. No roguish Han Solo clones to ruin the atmosphere (which is what, in my opinion, killed SOTE for me).
6. Coruscant: Timothy Zahn's world brought to life!
7. Wookies, and tons of them!
8. We finally get to see the rest of those "aliens from a thousand worlds" promised us in the ANH teaser trailer.
9. That wonderful logo flying onto our theatre screens again.

So, that'd be nine reasons right there, Jordan. wink.gif
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#139 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 02:22 PM

Nine reasons for fanboys to wet their pants, maybe. But nothing much I give any credence. Up your list to ninety-nine if you'd like, bo, if that' helps you feel you've increased the prequels' value exponenitially. But you know what? They still suck compared to what they're supposed to mesh with.
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#140 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 02:46 PM

QUOTE (Jordan @ Aug 31 2007, 12:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nice comment Kurgan, you're right about die hard fans. They fell in love with the originals, it's called culture worship. And it's a bad thing because you stop thinking objectively.

At school once, some grad student was yamering on about some paper by some guy and accused him of culture worship. In the academic world it's a big offense apparently.

The new films were just bad films. Seriously, consistency aside, the films just sucked. They were boring and stupid. There was nothing good about them save the final laser sword fight in TPM. They weren't good SW films and they weren't good films. That's why it's such a let down.



I used to think that big fans of the Prequels, especially those who were apologetic to critics of the Prequels (besides the obvious "don't have high standards for entertainment") must think like this:


1- George Lucas made "Star Wars" which was great.

2- And George Lucas is a genius.

3- George Lucas also made the Prequels.

4- Therefore the Prequels are good movies.

When in truth, we can see that Lucas has made some other products that weren't very good:

Howard the Duck, Star Wars Holiday Special.

And whether or not he did great things in the past is no guarantee that the things he does in the present or future are of equal or superior quality.

Another possibility was that these fans were such die hard Star Wars fans in general that they felt a "brand loyalty" and figured that to be a "true fan" like they considered themselves, one must like everything the franchise churns out, and so they defend anything in it that others dislike and question whether such people are "true fans."

But then I began to think that perhaps some Prequel fans are just insecure, and it upsets them that others don't share their love of the Prequels (or perhaps they're secretly ashamed to have liked them and spent so much time and money getting excited about them, like those folks who spent 42 days waiting in line for Episode I or pre-ordered the merchandise way in advance).

It's true that there's been a big backlash against Jar Jar and Episode II got a Razzie, so then it became the gushers' excuse that "oh you're just hating something popular because it's popular to hate" (sort of like the LOTR & Matrix fans would say "oh you're just bashing something popular and successful to be 'edgy' when you really don't care"). In other words, accuse people of the bandwagon thing.

I'm sure everyone has their reasons. But the "it's a true part of the Star Wars story from the mind of George Lucas" does hold a little bit of 'cred' with me. The trouble is that it also means I'll hold it to a higher standard than just going "okay, it has explosions and lightsabers and the official Star Wars logo on it, it must be cool and great."

Gushers frequently claim that the OT wasn't perfect either and therefore we can't criticize the OT, etc. But the fact remains that whenever you create something you designate a "prequel" to your previous successful work, the new is inevitably going to be compared to the original, ESPECIALLY when it's created by the same person! So really it's perfectly fair.

Most people who like something will tell you they "don't care what the critics think" but all too often it seems like they'll just cite the critics when the critics agree with them and say that the critics are full of crap when they don't.

Still, I just don't understand the people who can say with a straight face that the Prequels are better than the Originals (unless they can explain why they think this) or worse.. that there's no contradictions or inconsistencies or plot holes when you smack the two trilogies together as "Lucas i ntends."
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#141 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 02:57 PM

QUOTE (Bond @ Aug 31 2007, 01:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Actually there were a couple of good things about the PT:

1. John Williams' scores for all three easily trumped the OT's scores.


Are you serious? I will grant you that the music is great, but AOTC hardly had any new music (most of the planned stuff was nixed in favor of recycling from Episode I). "Duel of the Fates" repeated endlessly just makes it more and more boring. The stuff we got in the Original Trilogy was fresh, and great.

QUOTE
2. We get a real sense of the world the OT plays in.


Yes, the HUGE GALAXY consisting of Naboo, Coruscant and Tatooine. Wow, immense!

Seriously, the Prequels PROMISED this, but failed to deliver. Showing us a few second clips from other planets is cool, but it really doesn't flesh out the world of the OT. Besides, apart from the capital (which is never named in the OT) planet, all the rest is just stuff we never knew about (Naboo) or had already seen before (Tatooine). So we learn what a Tusken village looks like, okay, and we see a little bit of Kashyyyk and a tiny tiny bit of Alderaan, but really, what else? Most of the interesting stuff was shoe-horned in at the end.

QUOTE
3. Great scenes in each film, like Duel of the Fates in TPM, Birth of the Empire in AOTC, and Ruminations and the Opening Space Battle in ROTS.


More like "great moments." But really, compared to the OT? The moments are "great" because we instill them with value from the OT. Without that, they're kind of boring (albeit the saber fights are cool and the battle in ROTS is cool, though visually too busy and with no resolution). The counterparts of these scenes in the OT, while not done in CG, are usually more emotive and stronger, incredibly.

QUOTE
4. We get a deeper look at the character of Anakin Skywalker, making his turn back to the light in ROTJ look less sudden and far less hokey.


But what we find is unsatisfying. So he was an angelic child prodigy, and then suddenly as a teenager, he's an angsty, whiney, spoiled brat... a jerk, stalker, mass homocidal psychopath. Great! He falls to the Dark Side because he wants to get in Padme's pants ? Uh okay!

So we're supposed to think that his "coming back to the light" is believable because his fall to the Dark Side was so quick and easy? Hmmm...

Anakin is a really shallow and unlikable character. If that was Lucas' intention, then he did a great job.

QUOTE
5. No roguish Han Solo clones to ruin the atmosphere (which is what, in my opinion, killed SOTE for me).


Most people saw that as a weakness. Instead we're given so many contrasts... between overly stiff, dry, and formal or stilted characters... vs. totally over-the-top, hammy, pseudo-comic relief characters.

QUOTE
6. Coruscant: Timothy Zahn's world brought to life!


Whoooo cares???

QUOTE
7. Wookies, and tons of them!


Yeah, in like one tiny part of one movie! And while it was said that the battle was so important,
it was played off as totally inconsequential. The only thing about it that mattered at all is that Chewbacca happened to be there, and it allowed Yoda to escape. But really it didn't matter what
planet he was on and we had no idea these characters ever knew each other in the past.

QUOTE
8. We finally get to see the rest of those "aliens from a thousand worlds" promised us in the ANH teaser trailer.


That is true, and it's cool, though many of them looked pretty silly. Overlooking silly masks vs. silly CG I guess. Plus then you wonder why we don't see any of these aliens ever again (other than budget and they hadn't made them up yet).

QUOTE
9. That wonderful logo flying onto our theatre screens again.


Sadly, it's no indication of quality these days...
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#142 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 03:18 PM

QUOTE (KurganX @ Aug 31 2007, 02:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Are you serious? I will grant you that the music is great, but AOTC hardly had any new music (most of the planned stuff was nixed in favor of recycling from Episode I). "Duel of the Fates" repeated endlessly just makes it more and more boring. The stuff we got in the Original Trilogy was fresh, and great.


If you've seen ROTS, listen closely to the soundtrack; it's far more varied than what you'd hear in ANH -- for example, the soundtrack playing against the Millenium Falcon's escape from Tatooine sounds like a slightly-alterated orchestral version of the Addams Family theme song!

QUOTE (KurganX @ Aug 31 2007, 02:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, the HUGE GALAXY consisting of Naboo, Coruscant and Tatooine. Wow, immense!


Don't forget Geonosis, Utapau, Cato Neimoidia, Felucia, Mygeeto, Mustafar, Polis Massa, and Alderaan, you silly boy. wink.gif

QUOTE (KurganX @ Aug 31 2007, 02:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Seriously, the Prequels PROMISED this, but failed to deliver. Showing us a few second clips from other planets is cool, but it really doesn't flesh out the world of the OT. Besides, apart from the capital (which is never named in the OT) planet, all the rest is just stuff we never knew about (Naboo) or had already seen before (Tatooine). So we learn what a Tusken village looks like, okay, and we see a little bit of Kashyyyk and a tiny tiny bit of Alderaan, but really, what else? Most of the interesting stuff was shoe-horned in at the end.


Are you calling the Battle of Geonosis "shoe-horned"? ohmy.gif

QUOTE (KurganX @ Aug 31 2007, 02:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
More like "great moments." But really, compared to the OT? The moments are "great" because we instill them with value from the OT. Without that, they're kind of boring (albeit the saber fights are cool and the battle in ROTS is cool, though visually too busy and with no resolution). The counterparts of these scenes in the OT, while not done in CG, are usually more emotive and stronger, incredibly.


Remember the scene in ROTJ where Luke defeats his father, gets a choice to rule with the Emperor, refuses, and then gets blasted almost to the point of death by Palpy, all with Vader watching? That's a hell of a lot more poignant when you think that Anakin had been in that situation in ROTS, first with Dooku's head, and then in Palpatine's office. Makes his return a lot more significant, you know? unsure.gif

QUOTE (KurganX @ Aug 31 2007, 02:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But what we find is unsatisfying. So he was an angelic child prodigy, and then suddenly as a teenager, he's an angsty, whiney, spoiled brat... a jerk, stalker, mass homocidal psychopath. Great! He falls to the Dark Side because he wants to get in Padme's pants ? Uh okay!

So we're supposed to think that his "coming back to the light" is believable because his fall to the Dark Side was so quick and easy? Hmmm...

Anakin is a really shallow and unlikable character. If that was Lucas' intention, then he did a great job.


Luke was rather snotty in ANH; have you forgotten already? huh.gif

QUOTE (KurganX @ Aug 31 2007, 02:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Most people saw that as a weakness. Instead we're given so many contrasts... between overly stiff, dry, and formal or stilted characters... vs. totally over-the-top, hammy, pseudo-comic relief characters.


ANH Princess Leia? Lando Calrissian? Hallooo!!! dry.gif

QUOTE (KurganX @ Aug 31 2007, 02:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Whoooo cares???


Most people who appreciate seeing a true genius' work up on its' proper canvas. happy.gif

QUOTE (KurganX @ Aug 31 2007, 02:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, in like one tiny part of one movie! And while it was said that the battle was so important,
it was played off as totally inconsequential. The only thing about it that mattered at all is that Chewbacca happened to be there, and it allowed Yoda to escape. But really it didn't matter what
planet he was on and we had no idea these characters ever knew each other in the past.


Well, you have to admit, it sure beat the Battle of Endor. biggrin.gif

QUOTE (KurganX @ Aug 31 2007, 02:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That is true, and it's cool, though many of them looked pretty silly. Overlooking silly masks vs. silly CG I guess. Plus then you wonder why we don't see any of these aliens ever again (other than budget and they hadn't made them up yet).


Well, it's Tatooine; one cantina can't hold all the aliens in the galaxy... tongue.gif

QUOTE (KurganX @ Aug 31 2007, 02:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sadly, it's no indication of quality these days...


Was it ever? sad.gif
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#143 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 02:44 AM

Bond, the idea of a city-wide planet is from Asimov's FOUNDATION. Lucas had it in mind for ages; Timothy Zahn didn't create it.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#144 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 03:03 AM

And can I just add that the music of the prequels was lame and forgettable. There were only two pieces that were distinctive and they were distinctive for the wrong reasons. Anakin and Padme's love theme was one - and I remember it because it was so incredibly cheesy. That wretched 'Duel of the Fates' is the other - and I remember it because it was so damn repetitive.

The music of the original movies however is incredible - some of the most instantly recognisable, exhilirating and memorable music in film history.

Don't compare it to the prequel soundtrack - that's like comparing a very fine vintage wine to the cheapest beer in your local bottle shop.
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#145 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 07:26 AM

Sorry Bond, you may be the son we never had, but I have to go with KurganX and JYAMG on this one. That said, all parties articulate your arguments well.

Bond, did you see PT before OT? Might explain why you like it so. Bond and I have previously clashed on the Best™ Bond Movie. I pick 'You only live twice', which just happens to be the first Bond movie I ever saw. First year psych says: The first thing you pick up, you tend to favor. Changing your mind is seen unfavorably. Steadfast, determined, unrelenting. Sounds good? George W. Bush. Still sounds good? ;-)

Omitting what the others have already said:
QUOTE (Bond @ Sep 1 2007, 04:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
2. We get a real sense of the world the OT plays in.

and we get Jimmy Smits (Hey everyone! It's *JIMMY SMITS*) on an obviously CGI planet with a plasticy CGI rebel blockade runner. We get a Jedi Extermination which is over in 30 seconds. We get Yoda an arrogant idiot. What George Lucas put on the screen didn't match what he'd painted in our mind. A hard task to be sure: Maybe why it's best to avoid prequels. Too many expectations.

QUOTE
3. Great scenes in each film, like Duel of the Fates in TPM, Birth of the Empire in AOTC, and Ruminations and the Opening Space Battle in ROTS.

Some great scenes, so many left out. The opening ROTS battle was ruined by too much CGI and a dumb plot (read my Qoran of Quibbles. Apologies for the stupid Chenney/Kerry Joke. I can't edit it out, but otherwise it stands firm, steadfast, unrelenting: http://www.chefelf.c...?showtopic=6019 )

QUOTE
7. Wookies, and tons of them!

When Obi-won said "We can't afford to lose (the Wookie planet)", I rolled my eyes. When Yoda said, "much influence with the wookies I have", I laughed. And the wookie CGI battle had me looking for Mario and reaching for my joystick. OT Chewbacca was cool, but this was fan boy food. Would have rather he showed something new and interesting.

QUOTE
9. That wonderful logo flying onto our theatre screens again.

One thing I like about Japanese animations. They make a series. Usually just one season. At a stretch two. Then that's it. It's over. You're crying for more, but you're left on a high with fond memories. The production crews go on to other projects and do new work, so it's not like you're left starving. The ones which cave in and start pumping out season after season invariably go down the toilet, taking the franchise with the toiletpaper. In the early days Lucas did do other work, like Raiders. Now it's SW SW SW...

This post has been edited by Toru-chan: 01 September 2007 - 07:29 AM

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#146 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 10:30 AM

QUOTE (Toru-chan @ Sep 1 2007, 07:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sorry Bond, you may be the son we never had, but I have to go with KurganX and JYAMG on this one. That said, all parties articulate your arguments well.

Bond, did you see PT before OT? Might explain why you like it so. Bond and I have previously clashed on the Best™ Bond Movie. I pick 'You only live twice', which just happens to be the first Bond movie I ever saw. First year psych says: The first thing you pick up, you tend to favor. Changing your mind is seen unfavorably. Steadfast, determined, unrelenting. Sounds good? George W. Bush. Still sounds good? ;-)


Actually, Toru, I saw the OT before the PT; I rented them on video back in 1997. As such, I can distinctly remember what a rush I had when that classic logo first came up on my dinky little TV screen. Ahhhh... happy.gif
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#147 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 03:24 PM

QUOTE (Bond @ Aug 31 2007, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you've seen ROTS, listen closely to the soundtrack; it's far more varied than what you'd hear in ANH -- for example, the soundtrack playing against the Millenium Falcon's escape from Tatooine sounds like a slightly-alterated orchestral version of the Addams Family theme song!
Don't forget Geonosis, Utapau, Cato Neimoidia, Felucia, Mygeeto, Mustafar, Polis Massa, and Alderaan, you silly boy. wink.gif


Geonosis, yes, that's true, we did get to see a canyon planet, and Utapau, the sinkhole planet. My, what a huge galaxy!

The rest of those planets we see for a grand total of a few seconds each (Kashyyk being the exception, but the scenes for it are exceptionally short!).

The galaxy in the PT does not seem very big at all, since again, almost everything takes place on either Naboo, Coruscant or Tatooine. Tatooine we've already seen in two movies for vast stretches of screentime. Naboo is generic like earth (and a supposedly small and unimportant planet anyway). Alderaan we'd already heard of but what we do see of it? Some mountains and a city. That's it! Why did they spend so much time on Naboo and not Alderaan? In any case, merely mentioning a bunch of planets I suppose is a good thing, but it's not as if we even knew half of their names, much less had any stake in them. We can already imagine that the galaxy is huge without these.

QUOTE
Are you calling the Battle of Geonosis "shoe-horned"? ohmy.gif


I'd agree it was as we really don't see much of it at all. We don't see how the battle begins or ends, because the movie mainly focuses on the attempted rescue of Obi-Wan by the Jedi Knights (and then Yoda saving the few surviving Jedi's bacon with a couple of troop carriers). Like the battle of Coruscant, the Battle of Geonosis in Episode II is very abbreviated. Sure, a lot is going on in those frames (while the battles of the OT tend to focus on the actions of individual squads or individual soldiers on the field, the PT just throws lots of chaos at the screen for most of it with lots of cuts away to other things).

Basically those clips of missiles flying and the Core ships getting shot down, the Jedi running past and blocking blaster shots whilst they run in front of Clone squads was meant to be our "look at the Clone Wars." The next thing we see is the "battle over Coruscant" the clips of Kashyyk, the scenes on Utapau and then the clips of Order 66. Most of the "Clone Wars" is depicted in the video games, novels, comics, and animated shows "between" Episodes II and III. For a lot of us fans that was a let down. Since all of Episode I was wasted with political speeches, kiddie go-cart races, and Jar Jar's antics, Lucas had to "shoe horn" all these epic battles into the last 3 hours of the PT... when he wasn't trying to feed us ackward "romantic scenes" that is.

The war is implied more than shown. Many assumed that since Lucas had limitations of technology and budget, he couldn't show an epic war with the OT but had to just imply it and focus on the individual stories of the small rebel fighting force or single hero most of the time. With the prequels those limitations were removed, but what did he do? He still decided to spend time on things that were less interesting and less well done. If the dialog, politics and romance were compelling, viewers wouldn't feel so shafted by the way these movies turned out. Of course if we had no expectations, that's another thing, but these were hyped as the definitive backstory for the hugely successful OT...

Now look at Peter Jackson's "Lord of the Rings" movies. As much as people like to bash them for failing to live up to the novels or capitalizing on hollywood conventions and cinema fads to maximize popularity, the fact is that they did an admirable job of depicting fairly realistic looking (I mean realistic LOOKING because of course historical military experts could tell you the improbability of certain events or the silliness of various tactics or the impracticality of the armor worn by certain characters, etc) large battles. That's proof that the technology existed to do stuff like that at the turn of the century. Granted, there were no space battles, but the PT really skimped on those too! (and let's face it, the ROTJ space battle still looks great today, minus the stray garbage matte boxes, and Lucas proved he could do great looking space battles with modern CG in ANH SE in '97).

QUOTE
Remember the scene in ROTJ where Luke defeats his father, gets a choice to rule with the Emperor, refuses, and then gets blasted almost to the point of death by Palpy, all with Vader watching? That's a hell of a lot more poignant when you think that Anakin had been in that situation in ROTS, first with Dooku's head, and then in Palpatine's office. Makes his return a lot more significant, you know?


I don't know, if we imagine that Vader was always just an angsty impulsive doofus by nature, it kind of ruins any future scene he's in.

QUOTE
Was it ever? sad.gif


Other than the "Star Wars Holiday Special" yes... back in the 1980's it seemed to most fans that Lucas could do no wrong when it came to this franchise!

Obviously that's not true, but the tide has shifted with so much time and crap, revisionism and lackluster prequels and special editions and EU fluff.

This post has been edited by KurganX: 01 September 2007 - 03:35 PM

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 04:09 PM

All right, Kurgan, you win; I've been the devil's advocate for long enough.

I admit, you seem to have the upper hand -- or, in Lucas' words, "the high ground". wink.gif
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#149 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 05:24 PM

QUOTE (Bond @ Sep 2 2007, 01:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Actually, Toru, I saw the OT before the PT; I rented them on video back in 1997. As such, I can distinctly remember what a rush I had when that classic logo first came up on my dinky little TV screen. Ahhhh... happy.gif


Funny how people can see the same thing completely differently. Bond likes the PT moves for the reason he gave. The rest of us dislike them for the very same reasons.

Possible reasons for his reasons: I read about the PT movies first in a 1980 issue of Variety (at my school this issue was treated like the Dead Sea Scrolls). I spent 20 years looking forward to them, and they fell waaayy short. I was expecting something grand, awesome, sweeping, epic. On reflection, while we are fans of SW IV+V, compare them to LOTR. While they compare favorably and LOTR is by no means perfect, the LOTR series are much better films. Their emotional resonance is better.

Consider the Charge of the Rohirrim (JYAMG can correct me on the spelling :-) That charge, and the battle that ensued, was one of the most awesome moments in cinema. Even though I knew the ending, I was caught in it emotionally. The characters were worth caring for and their bravery was inspiring. Saw that at the cinema with my wife and a buddy and we were all in tears. (I'm the only fan boi amongst them).

Compare that to The Gennosis Battle. It was also impressive, but in a different way: The way a guy might look at a girl in a Bikini and mentally complement her in a way that would get his face slapped. Impressive CGI, but that's it.

Lucas' PT characters fail to emotionally resonate with the viewer. Ewan's Obi-won is the most likeable amongst them, but we know he lives and he's played as a dithering fuddy-duddy who can't get girls. Anakin is a spoiled brat who lives. Padme I never cared for: Stuck up and never demonstrates a shred of empathy for anyone (remember the 'don't tell, show thread?) No one else there rates a mention.

Even the bad guys: Compare Christopher Lee's Saruman (a formidable foe who meets a wretched end) with Christopher Lee's Dooku (I laughed at the 'settle with light sabres' line, and was lost at that absurd CGI backflip)

This post has been edited by Toru-chan: 01 September 2007 - 05:24 PM

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 06:25 PM

QUOTE (Toru-chan @ Sep 1 2007, 05:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Even the bad guys: Compare Christopher Lee's Saruman (a formidable foe who meets a wretched end) with Christopher Lee's Dooku (I laughed at the 'settle with light sabres' line, and was lost at that absurd CGI backflip)


Well, at least they showed how Dooku died; with Saruman, you hardly got any closure at all... sad.gif
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