[Bond]

All right, I concede the argument. Sorry.

Okay, I agree: GL is a lying scumbag.

This post has been edited by Bond: 25 August 2007 - 10:24 PM

[jariten]

The Scene with Alec Guiness and Mark Hamill in SW4 in Obi Won's hut explained compactly and elegantly what a Jedi was and what the force was, all in a couple of minutes of dialog:
Let's contrast that with the introduction of Jedis in Episode 1:
He might as well have said 'The Ambassadors are two lawyers'. Effect is the same. :-)

Nice piece of selective editing on your part. By contrast you mean of course 'intentionally leave out anything that might contradict my argument in the hope that no one notices' right?

Supreme Chancellor Valorum dispatches two Jedi Knight, champions of peace and justice in the galaxy, to settle the conflict...

It's explained before the film even starts.

[Bond]

It's explained before the film even starts.

It's very vague, though.

Jariten, be careful what you say. These guys will trounce your arguments in a second.


EDIT: 2000 POSTS!!! W00t!!!

This post has been edited by Bond: 25 August 2007 - 10:53 PM

[civilian_number_two]

Yeah, chefelf was right when he said I'd heard of "in medias res." I don't think it applies to the conversation at hand. In STAR WARS, Lucas felt it was necessary to be somehwat mysterious about what the Jedi could do, so as to build up the mysticism of them. Luke gradually learns that the Jedi were once guardians of peace and order, and gets a nice but vague explanation of the Force. Gradually he sees mind control, a lightsaber in use, etc. It's all done in the manner of slow revelation, even though STAR WARS, as you say, begins in the middle of a war.

TPM, which is supposed to be the start of the series, starts out by showing us that Jedi are superpowered warrior mages, and as far as I could see never settled in to an explanation of them at all. Why? I can only imagine it's because when he made it, Lucas assumed that all of its viewers woud have seen STAR WARS.

[jariten]

It's very vague, though.

Jariten, be careful what you say. These guys will trounce your arguments in a second.
EDIT: 2000 POSTS!!! W00t!!!

How is "Champions of peace and Justice" any more or less vague than guardians of the Old Republic (or whatever Bens dialogue was)?

[Chefelf]

TPM, which is supposed to be the start of the series, starts out by showing us that Jedi are superpowered warrior mages, and as far as I could see never settled in to an explanation of them at all. Why? I can only imagine it's because when he made it, Lucas assumed that all of its viewers woud have seen STAR WARS.

Exactly. However, in the Matrix we pretty much see the full extent of their 'powers' right off the bat. That is a pretty cool technique because at first you don't know why they have these powers. Are they superhuman? Magic? You just don't know.

In Star Wars, as civ said, the learning of the powers is more gradual which is also a good technique. But in TPM we already know what the Jedi's power are (yes, even in the unlikely event that you've never seen a movie before).

Of course, I'm not sure where this debate is really going at this point. I do think that if you haven't seen the movie watching them in chronological order would not be a very great experience. Watching them in the oder they were released would still work best.

That is until about 1/3 of the way through.

[Bond]

Well, perhaps there will come a day when the Prequels will vanish off the face of the earth, and GL with them...

You know, I've always had this thought in my head: does anyone have any ideas for possible changes that might be beneficial to the Original Trilogy? You know, ones that wouldn't connect them to the Prequels and such...

Well, I've got one: At the beginning of TESB, digitally map ANH Luke's face over Mark Hamill's as he says his lines, right up to the wampa slashing. It'd be sort of like what they did in Gladiator for Oliver Reed, except Mark Hamill wasn't dead at the time. Also, it'd make first-time viewers a lot less confused; I remember watching Empire for the first time and going, "Huh? Who's that guy?" It wasn't until quite a ways into the film that I realized who it was.

So, any more?

[civilian_number_two]

I like the MATRIX analogy Chef, because even if it appears to be a counterexample, it's exactly what we're talking about. Trinity does crazy powerful things and we all wonder why. Then the story is about some other dude, who suffers at the hands of some other crazy powerful folks who take his mouth away. It's running like a kind of mystery. Then, at the appropriate time, we get a 25-minute nonstop explanation of what these powers are and how they work in that universe.

TPM starts out with Jedi doing superpowered things, talking about the "living force," pretentiously meditating, etc. At the appropriate time for the explanation (introduction of the unitiated character, coincidentally another "chosen one"), we get some garbage about hemoglobin levels and symbiote organisms. It's assumed all along, one can only imagine, that we've already heard the speech about how the Force is an energy field that binds living things together. The nice little speeches given by Ben and later Yoda have no equivalent in the PT. Presumably this is because Lucas knows we've already heard them. There's no evidence that the story was ever meant to be seen in chronological order, which is of course, back to the original point, evidence that the series was NOT written before it was begun, that there was no long-term plan, that it was made up as it went along.

Mainly my complaint about the Jedi in the prequels as I saw them is how they live. They all hang out in some tower in a city under the tutelage and direction of a master warrior? What? They're not allowed to procreate even though they have something in their blood that connects them to the Force? Huhn? The Jedi in the prequels were just a lot less interesting than they were in the OT. I think trying vaguely to tell us more, Lucas drew too much attention to how undeveloped his original idea was. As is often the case, less was more.

[Chefelf]

Good point, civ.

Much like Neo's horror when Morpheus ends his speech: ". . . to turn a human being into this." As he holds up a battery. My shock was when Qui Gon and Obi-Wan started explaining midichlorian levels. Then, even worse when Ani said, "What are midichlorians?"

[Bond]

Well, I'd assume less importance is placed on them in the OT because there's not enough time for Obi-Wan and Yoda to elaborate upon them: they need to train Luke, and quickly.

[jariten]

I have to disagree with you civ-

Lucas needed that expository dialogue in SW4 simply because, with no Jedi kicking around to demonstrate the Jedis powers, he had no other way of getting that information across.

One of the things I liked about TPM was that he dealt with the exposition of who the Jedi were and what they could do in a way that wouldn't confuse new fans and wouldn't bore old fans who already knew.

By the time the Force is mentioned by Qui to Anakin there have been so many demonstrations of their power and so many references to the Force that there could be no doubt they are connected. One of Lucas' favourite catchphrases was "show, don't tell". Although where this idea went in Attack of the Clones I'm not sure.

Ask any first time viewer what the Force is after seeing TPM and they'd say "its what gives the Jedi their power". Which is correct. The "binds all living things together" was largely set dressing to help along boring chunk of expository dialogue anyway.

The only part of TPM where I thought he did a poor job of this was introducing the mind trick. Both the Boss Nass scene and the Watto "joke" scene are extremely confusing.

This post has been edited by jariten: 26 August 2007 - 08:57 PM

[Bond]

The only part of TPM where I thought he did a poor job of this was introducing the mind trick. Both the Boss Nass scene and the Watto "joke" scene are extremely confusing.

Well, the mind trick was used sparingly throughout the films, so I doubt it matters much anyway.

[civilian_number_two]

I have to disagree with you civ-

Lucas needed that expository dialogue in SW4 simply because, with no Jedi kicking around to demonstrate the Jedis powers, he had no other way of getting that information across.

One of the things I liked about TPM was that he dealt with the exposition of who the Jedi were and what they could do in a way that wouldn't confuse new fans and wouldn't bore old fans who already knew.

The only part of TPM where I thought he did a poor job of this was introducing the mind trick. Both the Boss Nass scene and the Watto "joke" scene are extremely confusing.

1) Fans who already knew? You mean the fans who've already seen the later chapters, out of sequence? Are you sure you're disagreeing with me? Because I thought that's exactly what I was saying

2) Thanks for the Watto example. Generally, the thing to do in a narrative is to introduce how the thing works before throwing us the dramatic exception. Like we'd already seen the Millenium Falcon successfully navigate hyperspace before we saw the hyperdrive fail in the next film. Watto's force-proof head looked pretty ridiculous given that we had no idea yet that Jedi could control people's minds. Not to mention of course that Qui-Gon, the professional negotiator, had about 10 different ways he could have goten off that planet without involving that kid and Watto. But we all know that's another argument

[azerty]

There is no way that the movies are meant to be seen in chrononogical order. That is just ridiculous! Stories are told to give you information in the order that the storyteller thinks is the most interesting. If that involves plot devices such as flashbacks, then that is the way the story should unfold. Otherwise, every mystery novel in the universe would start with the killer murdering his victim, and then... no mystery. So, knowing who Leia is, Luke is, Obi wan is, who Vader is the father of, etc. during Star Wars is just stupid. There's no mystery to it, and so it becomes boring.

I think Phantom Menace introduces the jedi knights in a reasonably decent way. We might think we know what Jedi's are, but we have never really seen fully trained proper knights in action yet. Even one of those aliens remarks

"Have you ever encountered a Jedi Knight before?... we will not survive this!"

Lucas builds a bit of anticipation there. Sure, we've seen old man Kenobi and half robot Vader and semi trained punk skywalker, but what were Jedis like during the height of the Jedi period? We are about to find out...

The Phantom Menace is not all bad. There is a menace emerging in the galaxy, but nobody can tell exactly what it is... it is a kind of phantom menace. The roving Jedi seem to be cool; Qui Gonn and Obi Wan are quite believable as "guardians of peace and justice", while the temple dwelling Jedi are sort of rotting away in that temple of theirs. Another "phantom menace"; the moral decay of the knights. Another menace is that the Republic seems to be decaying from within, because of that damn beauracracy. Palpatine seems to be a kind of weaslely menace, and Darth Palpatine is a mysterious menace. So, to sum up, there is a Phantom Menace growing in the galaxy.

It's not a problem that Darth Vader is introduced as a totally uncorrupted kid. I mean, do you think Hitler's first words as a baby were "Kill the Jews?" So Annakin is set on the road to Jedi-dom, and Palpatine has his eye on him. And maybe (most likely) Palpatine is Sidious too, judging by that last scene when they are all wondering about masters and apprentices.

People hate Phantom Mence for the wrong reasons. Usually it is "It doesn't connect with anything!!!" What, like the totally tight plotting of the rest of the series? Anyway, this movie is supposed to be viewed FIRST, right?

People don't like Qui Gonn - "Never heard of him before. Don't like him!"

Don't like Gungans! They remind me of black people. Sorry, I don't mean that! I like black people, but I don't like Gungans because they are racist caricatures of black people. Not that I personally see any resemblance between 8 foot orange frogs and black people, but come on, it's like totally obvious!

And they have to bring Jar Jar along on the adventure with them! He's lame! Qui Gonn, however, (being an old republic Jedi) does not see Jar Jar as lame and worthless as you or I do. That's because he is better than you and I are. But Qui Gonn is killed at the end of the movie, thus symbolising the beginning of the end of the old republic, and it's ethics. However, it is not all in vain, because the obviously superior Naboo people accept the Gungans as equals, (even though clearly they are not, right?). 'Cause that's what racial tolerance is all about.

Phantom Menace does in fact have an end, which makes it only the second film of the 6 to bother to do so. But even though the the film ends with most loose ends tied up, there is still the lingering threat that things have begun to slide downhill. The characters are set on the board and the real game is about to commence. Act one finished, dénouement to follow.

Like the Original Trilogy, the Prequel Trilogy sets up a possibly interesting scenario. And, like the Original Trilogy, the sequels are a let down, delivering on none of the promises.




Why does it all suck?

What I have never liked about the films (after Star Wars) is their total lack of subtlety. I attribute this to the lame fans, EU writers, etc. The most smallest comment, or most miniscule act, or most minor character is always blown up disporoportionately into something it was most likely never intended to be. Some examples:

The Falcon is a "piece of junk" yet can make ".5 past light speed" according to the original. Ok, don't judge by appearances, (just becuase you are a grizzled old man, doesn't mean that you can kick some ass later). By Empire, the Falcon has become "the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy!" Yep, obvoiusly the Falcon has posted it's timed runs for comparison with other illegal ships, and has the gold medal, and everybody knows it. "Hey mister, can I take a photo of your famous ship? You're that smuggler Han Solo, right?"

Vader chokes a guy on the original Death Star with the force (in a caual offhand way) to

1.) show him the force is not made up bullshit
2.) get him to shut up

Now the so called "Force Choke" is a major Jedi trick, used by all Jedi everywhere all the time. Choke Ozzel, choke Needa, choke Jabbas guards, choke your wife... it's their goddam signature move now. It's the major benefit of becoming a Jedi; you can choke your enemies!

This goes along with "The force can have a strong influence on the weak minded" Yes, Obi wan gets them out of a tight spot with a stormtrooper with this minor trick. It's the first force magic we (and Luke) are shown, just a little introduction to let us know Obi wan is maybe a bit more than he appears to be.

Now it's another major Jedi trick, used practically every day. ("You weak minded fool! He's using an old Jedi mind trick!")

But Toydarians are all immune to it!

Yes, once this Irish guy said to me "You can't drink me under the table, I'm Irish!"

Naturally I immediately deduced that all Irish men, women and children are immune to the effects of alchohol and I would be unwise to drink with any person on earth with Irish blood in them because I would of course end up under the table. Otherwise, why would that chap have said such a thing to me. It must be true.

And Yoda once said "Wars not make one great." I get it, that must mean that no Jedi would ever fight in a war! It's basic logic: If Wars: then Not Great. Thus One Great: Wars Not Make. QED. Jedi's don't fight. Ever. At least not Yoda, he would never hit you, not even if you were to try and get your own flashlight off him after the little pecker tried to nick it in a jungle somewhere.

Remember Bothans? They are a race who are all masters of disguise, espionage, cunning, daring, deviousness, and are especially good at stealing plans to military installations. How do we know this? Oh some woman mentioned it in Return of the Jedi about a single incident.

And that wasn't just "Some Woman!" Being that she ordered that attack on Endor, she must order all attacks everywhere, and therefore must be the leader, and in fact she must have actually started the rebel alliance too. Her name is Mon Mothma, only nobody ever calls her this, and there is another guy whose name is Mon Calamari, but I don't think they are related, because he is a giant squid. Only the names are the same, see? She was on vacation during the first attack on the Death Star, that's why we didn't see her before, but oh yes. She's the boss.

This kind of explanation also explains why "Republic Credits are no good here..." Does "here" mean Tatooine, or just Watto's crappy little shop? You know, this one time I was in this shop in Tabriz, and the greasy shop owner told me that he had the best prices in the whole city, so naturally I didn't bother to shop around becuase why would he lie? I mean, he seemed an honest, upright chap.

Stop being so literal! The 100 years war wasn't a 100 years, and the clone war wasn't originally about clones. It was cyclone war. Land-SPEEDER, an-DROID, at-TRACTOR BEAM, e-VAPORATOR, and cy-CLONE WAR. Panama hats don't come from Panama, the black box on a plane isn't black, and camel hair paintbrushes aren't made from camels.

The Star Wars saga is lame bacause the fans demand that it be lame.

[Toru-chan]

I like the MATRIX analogy Chef, because even if it appears to be a counterexample, it's exactly what we're talking about. Trinity does crazy powerful things and we all wonder why. Then the story is about some other dude, who suffers at the hands of some other crazy powerful folks who take his mouth away. It's running like a kind of mystery. Then, at the appropriate time, we get a 25-minute nonstop explanation of what these powers are and how they work in that universe.

I like it too. Bad authors tell you. Good authors show you.

One of the things I liked about TPM was that he dealt with the exposition of who the Jedi were and what they could do in a way that wouldn't confuse new fans and wouldn't bore old fans who already knew.

Didn't float my boat. Too much pretension in their entrance, not a smidgeon of perceived threat to them and the Midichoridians thing. Memo: If you must make prequels, don't use any of the same characters. This is the opposite of the Star Trek Red Shirt.

By the time the Force is mentioned by Qui to Anakin there have been so many demonstrations of their power and so many references to the Force that there could be no doubt they are connected. One of Lucas' favourite catchphrases was "show, don't tell". Although where this idea went in Attack of the Clones I'm not sure.

Snap. I actually wrote the above before I read this, but I first read that in one of Orson Scott Card's narratives on character development. But I think Lucas still told us rather than showed us.

Ask any first time viewer what the Force is after seeing TPM and they'd say "its what gives the Jedi their power". Which is correct. The "binds all living things together" was largely set dressing to help along boring chunk of expository dialogue anyway.

I liked it. More class and mystique. Sometimes background is best left as background. Another case: "Hack..//sign" (did I spell that right?) First animated series, awesome, and you only got a tantalizing glimpse at the force behind it. On subsequent series, they laid it all bare, and man did that take the fun out of it. If you are going to expose a force behind your ideas, you better be damned sure you don't come up with something that doesn't meet the audience's expectations. The droning way Qui-gon introduced the Mido's he sounded like a bored office worker reciting a Procedure Manual. This turned out to be the anticlimax that bound all members of the audience together.

The only part of TPM where I thought he did a poor job of this was introducing the mind trick. Both the Boss Nass scene and the Watto "joke" scene are extremely confusing.

Often, when Lucas runs into a 'I have to give them a reason for doing this', he throws up something like this and goes with it. Often, his instincts are wrong. This is why he needed people he could bounce ideas off and they could talk to him honestly: "George, that's Lame" instead of yes-men who tell him any idea he has is great. He should test them: "In the next movie we will have cardboard boxes for spaceships." "Wow Boss! That's a *GREAT* idea!"