[Infernus]

I am new to this board, but open-minded enough in my appreciation of Star Wars to know that not 'everyone' sees this as their least favorite from the classic trilogy.

That tag is misleading and does not represent ALL the fans. No offense. But then, these boards ARE meant to encourage different... points of view.

This post has been edited by Infernus: 24 May 2007 - 03:17 PM

[civilian_number_two]

Also, not everyone hates kiddie porn. That's not to say that it's popular.

The majority of fans of the classic trilogy prefer EMPIRE to STAR WARS, and then STAR WARS to JEDI. This is not to be a dig on JEDI; most fans of the classic trilogy really like that one. So yeah, not "everyone" likes it least, but there aren't many matters of taste for which you'll get a consensus. Probably none worth taking a poll on, anyway.

[Just your average movie goer]

Yeah, I have met the occasional person like yourself, Infernus, who has a higher opinion of this film than most people. So you're not completely alone.

You're in the minority (quite understandably) and for the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would rush to this film's defence... but you're not completely alone.

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 25 May 2007 - 03:15 AM

[KurganX]

It's my favorite Star Wars movie!

And I don't say the prequels are all bad, I just recognize that (Episode I sucks, so does the first half fo Episode II) the OT is far superior to the PT.

I can recognize that Jedi has some weaknesses, being the "wrap up" third act that really relies on you having seen at least one of the other two beforehand to get the fully fleshed out characters and why they're doing it all. It does seem a bit "dumbed down" in terms of being action heavy, but still.

I think there's some parts of it that are undeniably great, in terms of the saga, like the Emperor's throne room stuff, the speeder bike chase, and the space battle. The "absurdities" in it are no more absurd than the rest of the trilogy, except perhaps the Ewoks beating the Empire's (supposed) finest. It takes some creative apologism to get through that particular hurdle, but otherwise it's a darned good movie. It's about the only Star Wars movie I can just sit down, watch and enjoy, no matter what (no need to be in the "right mood" to watch it).

Of course I'll admit I'm biased as all heck, as it was my first theatrical experience with the series (and the first one my family taped off TV, which we then virtually wore out viewing as kids) that I recall and that's stayed with me.

This post has been edited by KurganX: 25 May 2007 - 04:53 AM

[Just your average movie goer]

Meh. The only reason I watch it is to see all the characters together for that one last ride.

The space battle is fun... but it lacks tension. There's no clock a-ticking here with this Death Star, and the main reactor is a pretty easy target when compared to that small thermal exhaust port. The Empire was even considerate enough to make nice big shafts in the superstructure to accomodate the rebel fighters.

Jabba was just rubbish. Luke's plan where he gets everybody caught by Jabba before coming to save the day just made no sense at all. Also the fact that Jabba was a fat slug who had no spaceships whatsoever really makes you wonder...

[ A ] How in the hell could he be the head of an interstellar smuggling ring?

and

[ B ] Why would anyone worry about him?

"If you tell that to Jabba, he may only take your ship."

"Meh, I've got a better idea. How about Jabba just lets it go and I don't drop a photon torpedo on his sand castle?"

Also, Jabba's palace is almost entirely peopled by muppets. In fact, I think that stupid little gremlin of his is a relative of Gonzo.


What else is there?

Ah, the Endor scenes. Freakin' filler, the lot of them.

I'm pretty sure how the planning for this film would have proceeded...


"Okay, we'll have a duel between Luke and Darth Vader."

"No, that's not enough."

"Okay. We'll also have the rebels blow up another Death Star."

"Still not enough."

"Um... drag the Jabba scenes out till they take up half an hour of the film without even progressing the story."

"We still need more, George."

"Um... all right, all right... um, we'll get a team to land on Endor and blow up the shield generator. Have 'em mingle with the natives for another half an hour. That'll help fill the movie."



What else is there? Um, let's see...

There's the convenient wrapping up of plot threads. Yoda said there was another so Obi Wan comes along and tells Luke it's his sister. Luke's still in love with Leia so said sister becomes Leia.

There's the inconsistent tone:

- Silliness in Jabba's palace.

- Disturbing violence (still in Jabba's palace) when Jabba feeds a girl to a monster because she resisted his advances (sick, sick, sick... and seriously pushing that PG rating).

- An amusing conversation between Han and Lando - at the start of it, Han is insisting that Lando takes the Falcon. At the end of it, Han has reluctantly given in to Lando's requests and lending him the ship, while Lando is assuring him it'll be okay.

- The beginning of the Endor scenes, where it looks like a proper military operation. Compare that to everything else on Endor which is just silly slapstick humour with a bunch of teddy bears.

- The intrustion of said Endor scenes with the far more interesting things going on in space. Every time the film cuts to Endor, it kills the mood. Even as a child when I liked this film much more, I still remember being quite bored during the Endor scenes, waiting impatiently for "the good bit".

There's plenty of other things I could mention as well. Just count the number of times Threepio falls over in a comical slapstick manner. Observe the way the humourous exchanges of the previous two movies are replaced with dumb 'set-up' gags, invariably performed by the famous comedy duo Han Solo and Threepio. Observe the new Emperor. Stately, regal, mysterious and commanding in 'The Empire Strikes Back', here he is a cackling fool who slouches in his chair, drones on and on about how clever he is and says "Good, good. Everything is proceeding to my plan." every five minutes.

However, what REALLY bothers me about this film is what a lost opportunity the whole thing was. 'The Empire Strikes Back' set it up beautifully. It had the chance to be a sweeping vision of epic proportions and instead it was a farce of slapstick stupidity, dumbed down plots, cardboard characters and teddy bears.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - 'Star Wars' and 'The Empire Strikes Back' grow up with you. This film doesn't. Where its predecessors still amaze and inspire, this film looks more and more dated with each successive viewing.

As for being in the right mood, that's what 'Star Wars' is for. It's a fun rollercoaster of a ride from start to finish. In fact, despite what you may think, it has FAR MORE action than 'Return of the Jedi'. If you don't believe me, watch one after the other. You'll see.

And when you're in the big movie night mood, you can't go past 'The Empire Strikes Back'. Not just the best 'Star Wars' movie, it still one of the most amazing movies ever made. From the snow-covered battlefield of Hoth to the exhilirating chase through the asteroid field... from the foreboding darkness of the swamps of Dagobah to the beautiful wisdom of Yoda (the most 'human' puppet EVER; the equivalent of 'Gollum' in his day)... from deep space to the city in the clouds (and the most amazing sets in the whole trilogy)... 'The Empire Strikes Back' is a truly grand and spectacular film in ever sense of the word.

So, when compared to that... how on earth are we supposed to get excited about 'Return of the Jedi'?

[Infernus]

Thank you Kurgan. I have in other posts mentioned a fault or two with ROTJ so I am not blind to them. But I still do not see it as being the worst of the movies. Even one voice in favor of this film negates the claim it is the least favorite of every fan. I too saw it in theaters before the others, and it is the one that made me a fan of the series.

Also, I do not appreciate the analogy of this movie with kiddie porn, which civilian-two made, and find it totally out of place in this kind of discussion.

I expected more from a Head Moderator.

This post has been edited by Infernus: 25 May 2007 - 11:58 AM

[civilian_number_two]

I didn't equate the film with kiddie porn, silly. Look up your logic text books.

And please don't try to shame me into acting more to your expectations. The role of a moderator on an online forum is to ensure that the tone of the forum is maintained, and that spam is deleted. We like hyperbole in these parts, so get used to it.

Here's a G-rated one for you, so that you can go to bed less sad, if not happy:


Not everyone hates anchovies on his pizza. That's not to say it's a popular topping.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 29 May 2007 - 03:56 AM

[Helena]

OK, Infernus? Brief language tutorial here: When people say "Everyone hates X," they don't literally mean 'everyone in the whole world', but something like 'most people' or even just 'a lot of people'. It's a technique known as 'hyperbole' which is enormously common in English, and which everyone on this forum appears to be familiar with - except you. And you know, turning up here and posting in about 500 threads within three days, then throwing a wobbly whenever a mod says something even slightly jokey or sarcastic in response, is not exactly the best way to endear yourself to people on the forum. You have plenty of interesting things to say; just lighten up a bit and try to take yourself slightly less seriously, and you'll get on a lot better.

[Just your average movie goer]

Wo! I thought Infernus was just being cutesy with this thread title and was just starting a conventional "Why I love Return of the Jedi" thread...

I didn't realize that he was actually upset by the fun little sub-headings in the 'Star Wars' forum.

I guess the heading could be changed to "Everyone's least favourite with the exception of Infernus..." but I think that would be just a little cumbersome.

Oh well, it still gave me some good speed typing practice. I reckon I'm getting quite good at typing out my summaries on the flaws of 'Return of the Jedi' now. I did that last summary in about five minutes.

However, it's not like the good old days when I could have a long heated debate with Mike Mac from NYU on the subject. Pity. They were good times.

[Toru-chan]

PS. I've no idea why the quotes didn't appear correctly in this post.

Hey Infernus; relax, enjoy and keep it friendly. A lot of the banter here is tongue in cheek; don't take it too seriously. OP was expressing an opinion. He wasn't declaring it was an absolute. (We all know only Sith believe in absolutes. ;-) Never flame. Good never comes of a flame.

Helena, on May 26 2007, 09:24 PM, said:

OK, Infernus? Brief language tutorial here: When people say "Everyone hates X," they don't literally mean 'everyone in the whole world', but something like 'most people' or even just 'a lot of people'. It's a technique known as 'hyperbole' which is enormously common in English

Maybe Infernus isn't an English-as-a-first-language speaker? English is very prone to exaggeration, and that doesn't translate easily. Once told a Japanese friend "I hate that band", and she looked on with wide-eyed horror: "You... *hate*... them?" 8-O

Just your average movie goer, on May 25 2007, 10:19 PM, said:

The space battle is fun... but it lacks tension. There's no clock a-ticking here with this Death Star, and the main reactor is a pretty easy target when compared to that small thermal exhaust port.

And we all knew how it ended anyway. We did in Star Wars too, but someone in that dogfight Lucas managed to keep the tension high. http://www.chefelf.c...?showtopic=6309

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The Empire was even considerate enough to make nice big shafts in the superstructure to accomodate the rebel fighters.

Makes me think what if, in James Cameron's "Aliens", they made the crawlspace just large enough for humans. Unfortunately the idiot architect made it large enough for an as yet undiscovered race of large predatory aliens.

Quote

Jabba was just rubbish. Luke's plan where he gets everybody caught by Jabba before coming to save the day just made no sense at all.

Very good point. Why put yourself in the weakest position possible before striking back. Why not before he even knew you were there? Damn I'm glad you weren't giving a narrative for this movie when I first watched it! :-)

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"Meh, I've got a better idea. How about Jabba just lets it go and I don't drop a photon torpedo on his sand castle?"

Nukes are evil weapons that sci-fi tend to avoid: takes all the fun out of it. They would have fixed up Jabba quickly, not to mention those ATATs lumbering across the plains of Hoth.

Quote

Also, Jabba's palace is almost entirely peopled by muppets.

Frank Oz must have been busy that day.

Quote

In fact, I think that stupid little gremlin of his is a relative of Gonzo.

He was a rat who used to live in Darth Vader's Kitchen.

Quote

Ah, the Endor scenes. Freakin' filler, the lot of them.

Stop, damn you! Stop! Yes, yes, you're right! Now whenever I watch ROTJ, I fast-forward through the Endor stuff. First time it's ok, but after that, yes, filler. Why do Ewoks have human size dresses and hair care products on hand for Leia anyway?

Quote

I'm pretty sure how the planning for this film would have proceeded... ... "We still need more, George."

Very true, and this smacks of how Lucas plans... or doesn't. He just thinks up something, and goes with it, and his staff are only there to fawn over him and tell him how wonderful the plans are. He doesn't solicit third-party opinions. Well on the commentary he said he got Spielberg to go over the storyboards/early-story/not-clear(?) and make suggestions, but it's clear from the end result he didn't listen or Spielberg was just humoring him.

To be honest: Resorting to yet another Death Star was a lame move. Why not something new?

Quote

There's the convenient wrapping up of plot threads. Yoda said there was another so Obi Wan comes along and tells Luke it's his sister. Luke's still in love with Leia so said sister becomes Leia.

In the MAD Magazine paradoy published when the movie came out, Chewbacca turned out to be Luke's old dog and R2 his old vacuum cleaner. Funny how none of the relatives even remotely looked like each other.

I think many of the flaws in ROTJ were noted at the time, which is why (I suspect too) for many it is the least famous OT (Original Trilogy) movie. Those damned Ewoks. The filler on Endor. Oh looky it's another Death star.

- Silliness in Jabba's palace.
Re-introducing Boba-Fett into the 'Special Edition' made me gag.

- Disturbing violence (still in Jabba's palace) when Jabba feeds a girl to a monster because she resisted his advances (sick, sick, sick... and seriously pushing that PG rating).
Come to think of it, was pretty gratuitous.

- The beginning of the Endor scenes, where it looks like a proper military operation. Compare that to everything else on Endor which is just silly slapstick humour with a bunch of teddy bears.
Worst moment of the film: Stormtroopers going down because Ewoks are throwing little rocks.

- The intrustion of said Endor scenes with the far more interesting things going on in space. Every time the film cuts to Endor, it kills the mood. Even as a child when I liked this film much more, I still remember being quite bored during the Endor scenes, waiting impatiently for "the good bit".
Like I said, I ffwd through the Endor stuff. Maybe we need another Phantom Edit.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - 'Star Wars' and 'The Empire Strikes Back' grow up with you. This film doesn't. Where its predecessors still amaze and inspire, this film looks more and more dated with each successive viewing.

Very true. The only fault in TESB was the timelines didn't match: Luke training on Dagobah for what seemed like months, with Han and co being on the Falcon for maybe a day? TESB is one of my favorites, and you can't take that away from him: Lawrence Kasdan is a genius.

Overall ROTJ didn't feel bad: There was enough SFX, big space battles and action to keep people entertained, and the Luke/Dad thing was cool too. But yeah: It could have been so much more.

And when you're in the big movie night mood, you can't go past 'The Empire Strikes Back'.
I have the music for all movies, and TESB is the one I listen too the most. The 14 minute score for the Battle of Hoth is brilliant. Starts out slow and pensive, and builds into a crescendo, ending with the 'Ok R2, we're going, we're going'. If you have the means, I highly recommend you listen to it.

So, when compared to that... how on earth are we supposed to get excited about 'Return of the Jedi'?
This reminds me of when I used to mark assignments in University. After seeing bad one like this, I might give it a 'C'. But then after what follows, you go back and mark it up to a 'B'. You know what I'm talking about... :-)

This post has been edited by Toru-chan: 27 May 2007 - 05:38 PM

[Just your average movie goer]

I know exactly what you mean. When compared side by side to any of the prequels, 'Return of the Jedi' comes out positively glowing.

I'm glad you enjoyed my little run-down. I quite enjoyed the feedback.

Also, it's funny that you should mention the time frame in 'The Empire Strikes Back' because I was wondering about that the last time I watched it. However, I think a large amount of real time passes between the point where the Melenium Falcon floats away "with the rest of the garbage" and the point where it arrives uninvited on Lando's doorstep. Two lines from the movie lead me to believe this -

One is that Admiral Piett says to Darth Vader, "If the Melenium Falcon went into lightspeed, it'd be on the other side of the galaxy by now." So either some time had passed since the Falcon had hitched that ride on Captain Needa's star destroyer or the Star Wars galaxy is seriously a lot smaller than we all thought.

The second line is when Han's looking for a safe harbour and says "Bespin, it's pretty far but I think we can make it."

Also, in that last proper training scene with Luke (the one in which he had the vision of his friends on Bespin), Yoda didn't seem completely disappointed in him... perhaps suggesting that some time had passed since he failed to levitate his ship.

And just going by the numbers now...

Regarding a phantom edit, I actually made an edit of 'Return of the Jedi' for myself that was about an hour long. It actually did make the movie much more enjoyable. I am particularly proud of the fact that I managed to incorporate brief scenes of Han and Leia outside the entrance to the control bunker, giving the impression that there was a fierce ground battle going on - but a ground battle with no ewoks. In fact, it's ewok free until the celebration scenes. Unfortunately, there wasn't much I could do about them. However, I did manage to put the music from the special edition over the 'yub yub' song... that way I could get the best out of both versions. No 'yub yub' song and no Hayden Christensen. A much more enjoyable way to watch the film.

And lastly, I've got the soundtracks for the three films of the original Star Wars trilogy - and I agree with you absolutely. "The Empire Strikes Back" score is the most impressive of them all and I believe one of the greatest movie soundtracks of all time too.

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

- Disturbing violence (still in Jabba's palace) when Jabba feeds a girl to a monster because she resisted his advances (sick, sick, sick... and seriously pushing that PG rating).

Come to think of it, was pretty gratuitous.

That scene has bugged me for years, especially since Lucas himself has talked about how ROTJ is geared more to a "younger audience," yet he packs it with all these weird displays of sexually-related violence in the parts with Jabba. Really, what's the point of the scene with the dancer? It doesn't really prop up Jabba as some kind of intimidating supervillain since all he's doing is dropping a terrified, scantily-clad woman who is chained to him into a pit. The whole thing just "feels" really skeevy and strange when I see it, and the special edition just made it even worse since it adds shots that make the dancer look even more miserable/terrified. Then when you add it to the later scenes where Lucas turns the only returning female character in the film essentially into a sex slave it just makes everything with Jabba seem even more creepy. Jabba should have given off the vibe of a dangerous master criminal, not the weird guy down the street who you think molests things in his basement.

[Jordan]

However, it's not like the good old days when I could have a long heated debate with Mike Mac from NYU on the subject. Pity. They were good times.

That was until the temple of doom thread started and the heated debate turned into a major war which resulted in mike mac leaving. Those were the good ole days. I miss them too.

If mike mac had a pal to help him out it would have been better. I remember I tried to lure people to these forums for the debates but it didn't work.

[Just your average movie goer]

Ah, Mike Mac had some personal stuff going on at the time if I remember. It wasn't really because of the war in the 'temple of doom' thread. He loved that war as much as I did.

And also thanks, MyPantsAreOnFire. I'm glad I'm not the only one who was disturbed by that scene.

[barend]

I am new to this board, but open-minded enough in my appreciation of Star Wars to know that not 'everyone' sees this as their least favorite from the classic trilogy.

That tag is misleading and does not represent ALL the fans. No offense. But then, these boards ARE meant to encourage different... points of view.

not different points of view.


certain points of view.

- Disturbing violence (still in Jabba's palace) when Jabba feeds a girl to a monster because she resisted his advances (sick, sick, sick... and seriously pushing that PG rating).

uh... yeah...

if i didn't know any better, I'd swear they were trying to make him look like a bad guy of some kind.