[StarWarsIsUs]

Despite all the blatant flaws in Return of the Jedi, I have wondered this morning (While actually watching ROTJ) if the people on here like ROTJ better than 'The Phantom Menace'?

I discovered that I have been a little too hard on Return of the Jedi. It's not a great movie, but I do think it is better than TPM at least.

I will be making these polls soon:

Is ROTJ better than 'Attack of the Clones'?

Is ROTJ better than 'Revenge of the Sith'?

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

Don't bother making the other threads, the answer is, yes, ROTJ is better than all three.

Combined.

It's a deeply flawed film, and the first half is basically worthless, but the final climax and the space battle easily trounce anything spat up during the OT.

The space battle is a pure joy to watch...I find it genuinely thrilling and the effects still hold up to this day.

Putting over-analyzing the science/mythology of the film aside, Vader choosing to save his son at the cost of his own life is tremendously moving, and that whole final sequence still gives me chills. It's been ruined by everything since and its impact has been dulled, but the initial revelation of Vader as just a feeble old man under his terrifying costume is incredibly powerful. The contrast of his ruined face with the black armor is so perfectly pathetic, and the acting that Shaw does with his eyes alone speaks volumes. There's more genuine feeling, emotion and passion in those 2 minutes than anything in the entire OT.

[Vesuvius]

Nicely put, MyPantsAreOnFire. Shaw did do a great job in acting an old and feeble Skywalker. You also have a point about the first half of the film being worthless. However, I voted both films to be about the same. They are both on my bottom tier of SW films. The only thing that keeps me watching TPM when I'm bored is the Darth Maul footage. It's not just the tatoos and the dual lightsaber, but I really love his devotion. I say Mauls devotion to the dark side was stronger than most of the Jedi's devotion to the light side in any other film. I always look at Maul as the perfect samurai that lived and died for his master. If there was anything that Lucas pulled off succesfully, it was Maul's attitude and solid devotion to his master and his beliefs. Flawless character, besides getting cleaved in half and didn't have sense enough to see it coming and block!

[miladyblue]

I have to agree with the consensus so far... RotJ is head and shoulders above even the "strongest" movie of the PT, whichever one that might be.

The film was deeply flawed, with the whole "point of view" cop out made by an embarrassed Alec Guinness, all the crap with Jabba, and the "twin sister" bit. Let's not forget the cringingly awful Ewoks, which were only a PRELUDE to Jar Jar Binks.

The final showdown between the rebel alliance and the Imperial Starfleet, and Darth Vader's battle with himself as to whether or not to save his own son... THESE bits, at least, are the stuff REAL Star Wars movies are made of, things that make you want to stand up and cheer yourself hoarse.

There was nothing that made me want to cheer with the PT. No great revelatory moments, no characters that I could feel anything for, aside from Qui Gon Jinn, and that was mostly because Liam Neeson is one fine lookin' man, whose wonderful Irish brogue makes me CRAZY.

[johnnycancer]

I'd have to go with MyPantsAreOnFire; while ROTJ is a flawed movie, when it works, it works very well.

It's the climax of the trilogy. The final space battle (the original version of course, not the special edition) is really well paced and very well filmed; it's supposed to be exciting and it is. The lightsaber duel between Luke and Vader in the Emperor's throne room is riveting and is still the reason why I watch the movie to this day. Lucas has always said that this Original Trilogy is the story of Anakin Skywalker's redemption, and the scene where the mask is taken away to reveal a tired old man is the payoff and the closure that the audience had been waiting for since the end of ESB.

Maybe I'm sentimental; and maybe I'm just a Star Wars nerd; but I feel genuine emotion when I watch that scene; it's a very believable, very human moment in Star Wars. And in a sea of CGI, what TPM and the other PT movies were missing was even one shred of humanity or real human emotion, and that's why they failed.

johnnycancer

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

Maybe I'm sentimental; and maybe I'm just a Star Wars nerd; but I feel genuine emotion when I watch that scene; it's a very believable, very human moment in Star Wars. And in a sea of CGI, what TPM and the other PT movies were missing was even one shred of humanity or real human emotion, and that's why they failed.

QFT.

And I know it's practically beating a dead horse, but John Williams really stepped up and delivered a home run with the score. The music swelling when Vader grabs the Emperor is perfect, and the quietly fading version of the Imperial March as Vader dies couldn't be more perfect.

[Storm]

Meh, I'd prefer to watch ROTS over ROTJ anyday of the week. ROTS is far more entertaining, even if that entertainment comes from the absurdity of most scenes. ROTS is just fucking funny....

The Space Battle in ROTJ and the stuff in the Throne Room does not make up for how brutal the movie is on Tatooine and Endor.

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

Meh, I'd prefer to watch ROTS over ROTJ anyday of the week. ROTS is far more entertaining, even if that entertainment comes from the absurdity of most scenes. ROTS is just fucking funny....

The Space Battle in ROTJ and the stuff in the Throne Room does not make up for how brutal the movie is on Tatooine and Endor.

Of course I'm watching any of the PT flicks if we're talking absurdist humor...that wasn't the question. Which is better in terms of being a "good film?" Both are hugely flawed, obviously...but I think ROTJ works in that it still comes through when it needs to and caps off the whole saga in a grand and dramatic and emotional manner. In short, it "works."

What's so "brutal" about Jabba's palace? I agree it's hugely anti-climactic and really doesn't go anywhere important besides saving Han, but I think it still trumps most of what we see in the PT. I mean, if Jabba is "brutal," Christ, what's the PT? Hellish?

[StarWarsIsUs]

What's so "brutal" about Jabba's palace? I agree it's hugely anti-climactic and really doesn't go anywhere important besides saving Han, but I think it still trumps most of what we see in the PT. I mean, if Jabba is "brutal," Christ, what's the PT? Hellish?

Don't think that I could have said it better myself.

By the way: I took the advice. This will be the only thread asking if the PT is better than ROTJ, since that is truly the direction people have taken it. So this will be a unique poll. (Part One of One)

[Darth Player]

ROTJ entertained and continues to entertain, ROTS didn't. In an ideal world, and knowing what we now know about the movie business, ROTJ should have been split into two movies, like the Martix or Kill Bill, one part dealing with Han's rescue and Jabba's undoing, whereas the other would have focused on Luke's continued training for the confrontation with the Emperor and Vader, then the space battle. The elements are there, they just need tweaking.

This post has been edited by Darth Player: 26 August 2006 - 11:46 PM

[miladyblue]

Storm is correct: if you can entertain yourself, Mystery Science Theater 3000 style with the PT, they are actually quite entertaining. Especially if you imagine yourself stranded on a satellite above the earth, and sitting in a darkened theater with two sarcastic robots heckling mercilessly.

I wish I could figure out what ever happened to Website Number 9, because some MiSTie friends of mine got hold of a script of TPM, and MiSTed the hell out of it! It was pretty damned funny.

This post has been edited by miladyblue: 27 August 2006 - 03:27 AM

[johnnycancer]

In an ideal world, and knowing what we now know about the movie business, ROTJ should have been split into two movies, like the Martix or Kill Bill, one part dealing with Han's rescue and Jabba's undoing, whereas the other would have focused on Luke's continued training for the confrontation with the Emperor and Vader, then the space battle.

I would have liked to see how this would play out as well. It's odd how the movies developed; based on what I've read, it almost seems as if the original plan was to make ROTJ 2 films. Lucas had apparently intended to make more movies immediaely following ROTJ, but, I guess problems in his personal life forced him to forgo these plans. Anyway, since it became apparent that there wouldn't be any more movies for a long time, a lot of the plot which was supposed to be spread out over a couple of movies probably ended up getting condensed into one script for one movie, which might partially account for why Jedi seems to be all over the place.

Well, it's a nice thought anyway.

Of course, if it's true, it basically proves that Lucas' method is filmmaking is organic in the worst possible way; there's almost nothing that can't be changed or cut out at the last minute (see, "I am your father"). But then, that does help us make a lot more sense of the PT movies...

johnnycancer

[Storm]

ROTJ entertained and continues to entertain, ROTS didn't. In an ideal world, and knowing what we now know about the movie business, ROTJ should have been split into two movies, like the Martix or Kill Bill, one part dealing with Han's rescue and Jabba's undoing, whereas the other would have focused on Luke's continued training for the confrontation with the Emperor and Vader, then the space battle. The elements are there, they just need tweaking.

An entire movie dedicated to rescuing Han from Jabba? Have you lost your mind? There are so many things in Jabba's palace that just don't work or make any sense, such as:

1. Luke uses force grip to choke the guards. I'm pretty sure Jedi aren't supposed to use this, and who the hell trained him how to do it anyway? Yoda?
2. The fact that Luke has this "great plan" to rescue Han, yet all he does is show up and attempt to use the Jedi Mind trick on Jabba. Well thought out!
3. Droids being tortured.
4. Lando, who probably was on Jabba's hit list at one point, manages to sneak in and become one of the guards by using the worst disguise ever! It's so obvious it is him!
5. The singing. Can't say I am a big fan of "Jedi Rocks".
6. Boba Fett's fluke death. Reminds me of how Anakin destroyed the Droid Control Ship in TPM.
7. Han holding no grudge vs. Lando for completely betraying him. I understand Lando is trying to save his life, but you would expect Han would at least make a comment regarding Lando's betrayal after he was released from the carbon freeze.
8. If Jabba had any brains, then why didn't he just get his guards to shoot Han, Luke, and Chewie? Like Count Dooku and the Geonosis Arena in AOTC, Jabba must have really had his mind set on feeding them to the Sarlaac Pit.
9. In general, the whole sequence of events in Jabba's palace is just plain silly and extremely boring. There's a reason why ESB is the best movie.... there is NO Tatooine in it. Tatooine is such a boring setting for anything to take place.

This post has been edited by Storm: 27 August 2006 - 12:24 PM

[Vesuvius]

Well, we could have some really good barfights on Tatooine if we went back to the Mos Iesly Cantina. It could get pretty crazy in there with a blind Han Solo with a gun, a poorly disguised Lando with a bounty on his head, and a dabling in the dark side Luke. Just imagine the riot in there that pours out into the street! They'd catch it on film and name it something like "When good Star Wars moments go bad! Caught on tape! Uncessored and Raw!!!"

[StarWarsIsUs]

^ I would pay to see that.