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"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" What is Anakin talking about?

#1 User is offline   King Diamond Icon

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Posted 08 April 2007 - 12:50 AM

Why does Anakin suddenly think the Jedi are evil? He says that during his lightsaber duel with Obi-Wan. Anakin's decision to join the Dark Side had nothing to do with the Jedi! He joined the Dark Side on a wager; Padme's life (possibly) in return for his obedience to Palpatine. I don't even think Anakin cared about the Dark Side. He probably would've pledged himself to Elan Sleazebaggano if Elan spoke of a way to save Padme's life.

Anakin even says, "I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over."

Um... what? Anakin knows perfectly well that this was a lie created by Palpatine to trick the Senate into forming a Galactic Empire.

Am I missing something? Or are Anakin's motivations really that inconsistent and illogical?
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Posted 08 April 2007 - 11:47 AM

QUOTE (King Diamond @ Apr 8 2007, 06:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't even think Anakin cared about the Dark Side. He probably would've pledged himself to Elan Sleazebaggano if Elan spoke of a way to save Padme's life.

Word.

Honestly, Anakin's character in the Prequels gives new meaning to the words 'stupid' and 'gullible'. I'm surprised Palpatine didn't try to sell him some magic beans while he was at it.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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Posted 08 April 2007 - 12:52 PM

Yes, I think Anakin was that inconsistent and illogical. He was a total cretin.
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#4 User is offline   Frank the Rabbit Icon

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Posted 08 April 2007 - 03:12 PM

Well, he had always distrusted the council, as they did not trust him. I believe that when mace had palpatine on the ground and was about to kill him, it appeared to anakin as if the jedi WERE in fact taking over.
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#5 User is offline   mireaux7 Icon

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Posted 08 April 2007 - 03:51 PM

QUOTE (King Diamond @ Apr 8 2007, 12:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why does Anakin suddenly think the Jedi are evil? He says that during his lightsaber duel with Obi-Wan. Anakin's decision to join the Dark Side had nothing to do with the Jedi! He joined the Dark Side on a wager; Padme's life (possibly) in return for his obedience to Palpatine. I don't even think Anakin cared about the Dark Side. He probably would've pledged himself to Elan Sleazebaggano if Elan spoke of a way to save Padme's life.

Anakin even says, "I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over."

Um... what? Anakin knows perfectly well that this was a lie created by Palpatine to trick the Senate into forming a Galactic Empire.

Am I missing something? Or are Anakin's motivations really that inconsistent and illogical?


what youre basically missing is that Anakin was initially lead unto Palpatine by his promise of preventing Padme's death. The sheer moment Anakin agreed to allow Palpatine's help, Anakin had pretty much let the guard down, and then began the gradual penetration of the dark side.

Most of the words you hear from Anakin's/Vader's mouth, especially towards the end of ROTS arent really coming from Anakin/Vader, per se...but are really words that are spoken via a deep saturation of evil Sith influence into Anakin, thus changing him into Vader.

think of it as manipulation in the darkest form, brain washing, if you will.

if you befriend someone, they will believe you, as long as what you say seems to hold some sort of logic. when palpatine consistently conjured logical answers to many of anakin's suspicious questions, anakin began to slowly believe palpatine more and more. the more anakin believed and befriended palpatine...the easier it became for palpatine to lure anakin to the dark side

i believe it was said best in ROTS, when Yoda says to Obi-Wan "gone is he, the boy Anakin, consumed by Vader" (something to that extent, not sure on what was said verbatim)

basically, Yoda had already realized that Anakin was at the point of no return,.he had been totally brain-screwed by Palpatine,..so that many of the phrases that you hear anakin/vader recite at the end of the film..are somewhat of unconscious responses,..(meaning, that,.if anakin were of stable mind,..he would have never recited them)

There was an apparent struggle always within Anakin,..as Luke always said to his father "I see the good in you,..I see the conflict"...i cant begin to tell you how true that statement is! ...and i feel its that statement right there, that may help you to understand better what exactly anakin was going thru in ROTS,...it was a definite struggle!...this was apparent by anakin's/vader's scream at the end of ROTS...."NOOOOOOOO!!" when anakin realized he has been transformed into Darth Vader, black suit and all,..by following Palpatine's lies.

But it was the "power of the dark side" that kept Anakin's struggle back to the light side of the force, firmly in place,..with only Luke being the only hope for anakin's return to the light side of the force.

i hope this helps you to better understand, not only what was going on in ROTS, but the entire saga.
QUOTE (njamilla @ Feb 23 2008, 08:16 AM)
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#6 User is offline   King Diamond Icon

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Posted 08 April 2007 - 06:41 PM

QUOTE (Frank the Rabbit @ Apr 8 2007, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, he had always distrusted the council, as they did not trust him.


Anakin was frustrated by the Council, but is that really grounds for believing they're "evil?" I really don't think so. Maybe Anakin should've said, "From my point of view, the Jedi Council really gets my panties in a bunch!"

QUOTE (Frank the Rabbit @ Apr 8 2007, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I believe that when mace had palpatine on the ground and was about to kill him, it appeared to anakin as if the jedi WERE in fact taking over.


I don't buy it. Anakin was the one who led Mace to Palpatine in the first place, and they both agreed that Palpatine had to be dealt with immediately. The ONLY reason why Anakin didn't want Mace to kill Palpatine was because it would've prevented Anakin from learning how to save Padme. Anakin says that Palpatine must stand trial, but it's nothing more than a desperate, last ditch attempt at keeping Palpatine alive so that Anakin can learn what he wants from him. Earlier in the movie, Anakin was easily talked into killing Dooku without trial, so Anakin should know as well as anybody that if someone is too big a threat, they have to be dispatched.

In conclusion, I don't believe Anakin suddenly thought the Jedi were trying to take over (where would he even get that idea?). Anakin knew that Palpatine had to be stopped, which is why he contacted Mace. However, Anakin's selfishness got the better of him, plain and simple. He wouldn't allow Mace to kill Palpatine, not because he somehow thought the Jedi were trying to take over, but because he wanted to learn how to save Padme; Palpatine's death would've put the kibosh on that. Anakin is fully aware that the "evil Jedi plot to take over" is nothing more than a lie created by Palpatine.

This post has been edited by King Diamond: 08 April 2007 - 06:56 PM

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#7 User is offline   King Diamond Icon

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Posted 08 April 2007 - 08:05 PM

QUOTE (mireaux7 @ Apr 8 2007, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
what youre basically missing is that Anakin was initially lead unto Palpatine by his promise of preventing Padme's death. The sheer moment Anakin agreed to allow Palpatine's help, Anakin had pretty much let the guard down, and then began the gradual penetration of the dark side.

Most of the words you hear from Anakin's/Vader's mouth, especially towards the end of ROTS arent really coming from Anakin/Vader, per se...but are really words that are spoken via a deep saturation of evil Sith influence into Anakin, thus changing him into Vader.

think of it as manipulation in the darkest form, brain washing, if you will.

if you befriend someone, they will believe you, as long as what you say seems to hold some sort of logic. when palpatine consistently conjured logical answers to many of anakin's suspicious questions, anakin began to slowly believe palpatine more and more. the more anakin believed and befriended palpatine...the easier it became for palpatine to lure anakin to the dark side

i believe it was said best in ROTS, when Yoda says to Obi-Wan "gone is he, the boy Anakin, consumed by Vader" (something to that extent, not sure on what was said verbatim)

basically, Yoda had already realized that Anakin was at the point of no return,.he had been totally brain-screwed by Palpatine,..so that many of the phrases that you hear anakin/vader recite at the end of the film..are somewhat of unconscious responses,..(meaning, that,.if anakin were of stable mind,..he would have never recited them)


All of that sounds like lazy scriptwriting to me. It isn't engaging whatsoever. Instead of having Anakin join the Dark Side for reasons that the audience could possibly understand and maybe even sympathize with, we're shown that the mighty Darth Vader was nothing more than a dimwit; a dimwit that got brainwashed into spouting empty delcarations of Jedi hate that had no basis in anything. I hate that Darth Vader has been reduced to this.
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#8 User is offline   mireaux7 Icon

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Posted 08 April 2007 - 08:21 PM

QUOTE (King Diamond @ Apr 8 2007, 08:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All of that sounds like lazy scriptwriting to me. It isn't engaging whatsoever. Instead of having Anakin join the Dark Side for reasons that the audience could possibly understand and maybe even sympathize with, we're shown that the mighty Darth Vader was nothing more than a dimwit; a dimwit that got brainwashed into spouting empty delcarations of Jedi hate that had no basis in anything. I hate that Darth Vader has been reduced to this.


i know what youre saying,.you expected a more indepth and complex plot,.so did i. neither one of us expected someone who was proclaimed to "rival master yoda", to fall so relatively easily to the dark side.

you can think of it like this:

1.Lucas has never been known to write absolutely intelligent scripts.
2. Lucas' writing has always been known to leave holes in the story that are subject to opinionated interpretation.
4. Lucas realized he had about 2 hours to bridge the gap between II & IV, and have III make sense, and not stray away from the storyline continuity of the other films already in place.

within that 2 hour time frame he had to explain how many things occured:

1. how anakin became vader.
2. kashyyyk
3. yoda's retreat to dagobah
4. birth of twins
5. how palpatine got deformed
6. demise of windu
7. how the twins are delivered to different planets
(i could go on and on)

for me to believe that the Star Wars saga ended in 6 films is crap. I know that Lucas wants to continue the saga. I know that many dedicated fans are well at work making fan films of what they think Ep VII should look like.

I know this will be in the minds of many SW fans when May 2008 comes around..the logical 3-year time frame that a next installment would usually be released in theaters.

I know that more Star Wars films will be made in the future...theres no doubt in my mind, because there is far too much money to be made.,.and when you have a super-huge fan base, possibly the largest film fan base on the planet,.youve definetely got Hollywood's attention.

all it takes is either Lucas agreeing to do more films,..or some other company acquiring the rights to make more SW films.

IT will happen, any way you want to look at it. its all just a matter of time.
so get ready for Episode VII: The Truce at Bakura.

This post has been edited by mireaux7: 08 April 2007 - 08:23 PM

QUOTE (njamilla @ Feb 23 2008, 08:16 AM)
Shit, Fuck, Piss: I had to say that because I can on this website. (Thanks Chef!)

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#9 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 09:34 PM

people, robots, chicks....

listen.

the main problem is that he says: "from my point of view, the jedi are evil."

now aside from this being yet another self proclimation of internal proccess (i.e: "you're breaking my heart.") of things people NEVER SAY!!!!, the very fact that he refers to his opnion as being opinion, and more importantly from his own perspective is utterly flawed.

in a heated argument you don't say: "well from my point of view..."
if you're fighting to the death with your previously best friend, then your situation seems to project the fact that you don't consider your understanding of the situation as opnion, let alone a personal one based on perspective but as complete, unquestionable FACT.

the fact that he states his POV as just that, completely undermines his entire motivation and conviction, and completely thows his whole commitment to the fight into extreem doubt to an extent beyond any continuation.
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Posted 09 April 2007 - 09:52 PM

QUOTE (mireaux7 @ Apr 8 2007, 08:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
4. Lucas realized he had about 2 hours to bridge the gap between II & IV, and have III make sense, and not stray away from the storyline continuity of the other films already in place.

within that 2 hour time frame he had to explain how many things occured:

1. how anakin became vader.
2. kashyyyk
3. yoda's retreat to dagobah
4. birth of twins
5. how palpatine got deformed
6. demise of windu
7. how the twins are delivered to different planets
(i could go on and on)


everything said in the OT suggests Obiwan met Anakin as a pilot. with mentions of the clone wars, them being good friends, and obiwan taking it upon himself to train him without Yodas consent, all sugest that somewhere around the opening scene of ROTS would have been where obiwan and anakin met, far away from any jedi counsel and with Obiwan taking it upon himslef to train the young MAN in the absebse of the proper facilities noticing the force flowing so strongly within him.

not meeting him as a child and giving him a bloodtest after a go-kart race to scan for performance inhancing addatives.

Lucas chose an irresponsible place to begin his story to just to have a child-hero because becomming a parent and made him sacrifice his artistic integrity for a patrionising appraoch to spoiling his kids. If he'd started episode one during the clone wars, and if the clone wars had been an actual war campain that lasted a few years rather than a skirmish, he would have found addequate time to fill his storyin the six hours he allowed himself without resorting to animated series and forced character-betraying dialogue rushing through with the subtlety of an unshaven tackle-out drag queen.

There's no excuses. He made an absolute mess of things, and has no one to blame but himself, or at least could if he'd at least admit that the whole thing was a fuck up in the first place.

he's like an artist who sketched in pencil on canvas, carefully selected his colours, then threw the paint at the canvas while slipping on a bannana peel, only to sit back and admire his own deranged vomit of work.
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#11 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 09 April 2007 - 11:25 PM

I think Lucas started making a mess of things when he decided to make Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader the same person. There's no way that was ever his original plan.
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Posted 09 April 2007 - 11:48 PM

QUOTE (Storm @ Apr 9 2007, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think Lucas started making a mess of things when he decided to make Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader the same person. There's no way that was ever his original plan.

Word.

From my point of view. cool.gif
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#13 User is offline   sesame_street_hustler Icon

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 04:41 AM

if that wasnt his original plan, then what are you proposing was instead?

and if that wasnt Lucas' original plan, then who is Beru referring to when she and Owen are having a dinner table discussion about Luke growing up to be like his father?

Isnt Lucas' setting the stage for the events that will transpire in ESB?

If not, then why in ANH is there such a fear of Luke becoming just like daddy? Remember, ANH came out in 1977, ESB wasnt until 1980. Youre saying this wasnt Lucas' plan, but to me, why would he throw this into the script of ANH if there wasnt to be the revelation we had in ESB??
the world is a game of players & pawns with everyone striving to be the king
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Posted 10 April 2007 - 12:11 PM

Oh Snap!

Spoken like a true hustla
I think the initial plan was

to make Anakin/Vader
strickly for the conflict
that would ensue.

It's one thing to fight
an evil villian it's completely
another to be fighting a family member
let alone your father.

As for Anakin in ROTS,
Dude was harsh looking
for any reason, no matter
how foolish to turn his back
on the Jedi, and rationalize

the total abandonment of
virtues and morals he'd
been taught since he was 10.
All for the love of Padme
But really the Jedi only
have themselves to blame

he was too old for training dry.gif
Plus Everyone and their mother
knew that putting Anakin & Padme
together was more than a Bad idea
He didn't love her it was a

very unhealthy stalker-like infatuation
Palpatine wasn't a genius
the Jedi were just stupid
they let him 'cloud' their vision

Anakin fell into the trap set for him
b/c he wanted to believe there was
more to the universe than the jedi could offer

Mainly 'cuz they kept telling him he was
wrong, who doesn't wanna stick it to the man

in the end..... Don't hate the Jedi..... Hate the Force

Duct tape is like the force....

There's a lightside, a darkside

and it holds everything together


There are too many people in the world...We need another plague -Dwight K. Shrute [The Office]
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#15 User is offline   sesame_street_hustler Icon

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 01:13 PM

go on witcha bad self

fo shizzle my pizzle nizzle hosizzle bizzle.

This post has been edited by sesame_street_hustler: 10 April 2007 - 01:15 PM

the world is a game of players & pawns with everyone striving to be the king
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