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walmart..love or loathe it controversy abound the worlds #1 retailer

#1 User is offline   blueoceans Icon

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 11:30 PM

smile.gif <-- cute, walmart icon. Okay folks, I just got done watching a documentary film about wal-mart entitled:"wal-mart-the high cost of low price". This film seems quite controversial in its content, if you wish to avoid spoiler content, please refrain from reading below.

before i get started, let me say that i love walmart, i shop there all the time. i think its great, and the film did nothing in its dire attempt to try to brainwash me into never shopping there again.

the film is basically a documentary that takes an in depth look at the corporate practices that wal-mart employs to further their gain in the marketplace. The film uses sensitive topics such as: low pay, racial & sex discrimation, environmental concerns, religion, family, and unfair practices as leverage to substantiate its often biased stance against wal-mart.

The film starts out showing a small town family that supposedly had their hardware store of 45 years shut down by "retail monster". It also tries to claim how wal-mart is steadily robbing Americans abroad of simple small town life, being that anytime a walmart is built, the immediate stores in the town arent able to compete, and are forced out of existence.

First off, what the film fails to mention is that Wal-mart also started out as a small town store too,.it was just one store, the proud prodigy of Mr. Sam Walton. In fact, pretty much every business starts out from somewhere,.usually as small business and then takes time to grow into something much larger.

The film even takes us to red communist China, and tells the tale of a husband and wife team that are employed at a factory that manufactures goods for walmart, for low wages and long hours,..but this isnt just walmart..this is pretty much every store in America thats guilty of this, if it is a crime.

Walmart actually tried to take a stance in the 1980's by trying hard to buy mostly from american manufacturers. this proved to be difficult. the problem is, as most know, that foreign workers are willing to work for less. less pay means a finished product for a cheaper price. its the same reason general motors was forced to close many of its manufacturing plants in recent years. you cant expect to sell a new car for say $20K, and still get a profit from it, if you are consistently paying each of your employees about $18-$25 per hour, for the same job that a foreign worker will do for a fraction of the pay and in many cases perform a higher caliber of work.

Walmart "got big" by offering common goods at a cheap price, having a 100% customer satisfaction policy, and being open 24 hours. If mom & pop stores want to compete, they still have an excellent chance, try lowering the price of some of the goods in your store, settle for a lower profit margin, and increase your advertising.

One of the problems is that not every small business is open 24 hours,..and this is actually part of their solution. As citizens, not everyone responds to a Mon-Fri 8am to 5pm operating schedule. There are workers from all walks of life that work graveyard shifts, and going into a store during daylight hours, just doesnt cut it for them. Add in the fact that people like to shop whenever they want, for as long as they want,.and its understandable why Wal-mart grew big..no one likes to go shopping for anything,.only to hear a dreadful intercom voice tell them that their store is closing in 5 minutes, and to hurry up and make a selection and take it to the nearest counter.

I became really disgusted when the film tried to claim that walmart holds a monopoly in the retail market. im going to spell this out to the entire world right now: WALMART IS NOT A MONOPOLY. No one is forcing you to shop at walmart. you are free to shop for what you want, where you want and when you want,.dont let walmart make you think any differently. what was a "monopoly" was probably your little mom & pop surplus store that was raping customers in your small town ferociously by being in the only said store within a 40, 50, 100 mile radius and putting whatever price tag you wanted on your merchandise and getting away with it year after year, for 45 years...that my friend is a monopoly. an electric utility company being the only provider for electricity in a specific region, is a monopoly. walmart..is not a monopoly.

I find it amusing that many people didnt even have a scuff with walmart until the supercenters started coming into scene about 10 years ago. yep folks, thats the process of economic evolution..you offer goods at a cheap price for a long duration and you are bound to grow by leaps and bounds. deal with it.

the worst is the repetitive sad stories that the film tries to make about walmart's own employees, saying that they are underpaid, lack benefits, working off the clock, etc. You know,.if you hate your job, you CAN quit it. I dont recall any walmart employees being under contract, and its not the military, so you wont go AWOL or anything. Go to work for that other up and coming retail giant: SuperTarget.

The film tries to isolate walmart as if they were the only company in america guilty of such said crimes of low wages, lacking benefits, pollution, corporate malpractices...i would only believe this if it were true,.but the fact is that many companies in america are just as guilty, if not even more guilty,.so why just single out walmart? Its almost as if this film was made by a united coalition of angered small-time business owners who vowed to attack walmart at all costs and blame walmart unanimously for their business' demise.

the average american citizen was tired of having their paycheck raped by paying premium prices for everyday common goods. its funny that none of the small-time business owners dared to disclose what their profit margins were before walmart "closed them out"

The film even tries to compare the wages of a typical walmart employee with that of a paycheck of some of walmarts big guns. one question:why??...thats a lost cause. thats every company i can think of. if you want to get paid the big bucks in the free world, you pursue whats called a higher education.

Im almost convinced that many in this film are hypocrits. they lash out heavily against walmart, but who knows if they shop at walmart as well? only one old man ever comes out openly and states that he has never been inside a single walmart store, the rest of the people on the film never make any such verbal affidavits.

well, id like to end on this note. i think we live in a very competitive market now. what worked in the past, may or may not work in todays market. people want the best they can get for their hard-earned dollar. it is a time we live in that companies must be creative in their marketing, their product, their service, and their innovation. with the introduction of the internet, it has given consumers around the world a very powerful tool to ensure they are never cheated out of overpaying for anything ever again. i am for the everyday joe out there, the simple guy and girl that doesnt want to overpay for anything ever again. take care.
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#2 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 01:38 AM

Here's the scenario: Walmart wants to sell mittens for a dollar, to undersell the next guy who's selling them for $1.35. As it happens, the manufacturer's cost is $0.45 per unit, and he can't profit unless he sells it to Walmart for $0.75. Walmart says no way, we need each unit to cost $40. The manufacturer can't do this, so Walmart won't deal with him. Walmart buys its mittens instead from a Chinese manufacturer for $0.20 per unit, which after shipping (in bulk with other products) is still within reasonable limits. Walmart is able to sell its mittens for $1.00, and everyone says "Wal-Mart is a better place to shop than the other place that sells for $1.35." So yeah, the price is lower, but the cost may in fact be greater. All of a sudden there are loads of laid-off mitten makers who can't afford to shop at WalMart.

It IS relevant to consider the wage differential between the CEO of a company and the company's workers, for more reasons than "incentive" and "higher education." The fact is, Walmart (like a lot of companies) pushes for its profits not to benefit its customers, but to feed its management salaries. I don't shop at WalMart, but I've been inside a few of them. While everyone clamours around the bargain bins they don't notice that much of the product is more costly than it is elsewhere, even the stuff made in Chinese sweatshops. I know, I know, money is money, and if the folks in China didn't make the mittens they'd be poor, right? Well sure, but if the folks in China decided to walk out, they might be forced back to work by the army. And don't kid yourself that the US government might not help, so as to preserve its home economy. Economics is more than dollars and cents, and this shit has happened before, with and without American military aid, in and outside the US. So what you have is an economic system forced by a conspiracy of business and government, aimed at making a few people rich at the cost of American manufacturers and yes, their workers.

Time was elitist libertarian wannabes would just spout off about how they'll just get degrees and not have to worry about working in a car manufacturing plant, or making tile moulds, or heaven forbid in some grocery store. Since the educated folks didn't want those jobs, it stood to reason that they were shitty jobs and not worth the bug wages they were getting. So those that corporations couldn't whittle down they just shipped overseas. Still the college-bound folks smugly grinned that they'd just go into computer programming. Well I sure hope those folks are ready to move to Mumbai, cause that's where those jobs are going now. Who knows what's next?

The real side effect of course is that all the product is getting shittier and shittier. Forgetting politics, WalMart is a lousy company. They don't sell any clothing a decent person would want to wear, and anything not made exclusively overseas is not really cheaper anyway. I'll talk about something I know directly, DVDs. Everyone in WalMart ogles that shitty DVD bargain bin, but if you look in it, there isn't anything there you couldn't get at the same price elsewhere, if you wanted to buy it at all (Woo hoo! Summer Rental with John Candy!). The rest of the Technology department is average or overpriced. Had I bought everything I own exclusively at WalMart, I'd be in for another $1000 at least.

The bottom line is you should support your own economy, and that doesn't always mean buying from the biggest company around. I agree that you should want good prices, but WalMart is proving that if it can edge out enough competition, it can fool folks into not noticing that they're spending more money than ever. And as for the stuff made overseas, it will continue to get lousier and lousier until the profit bubble breaks. Once the billionaires at the top (you mentioned something about mom and pop not disclosing their profits: since that's apparently imoportant to you, they weren't billionaires) ... once the billionaires realise that noone in America can afford their products anymore, they'll have to find a way to get fully automated manufacture, and after that, what then?

Yeah yeah, profit profit profit. Mathematically, it's not sustainable. Ideally, everyone would be able to make enough money to buy the products they want. That would be one juicy economy. But the thing that's killing the system is the multi-million dollar salaries for management. Laud higher education all you want; there is nothing done in those meetings that is worth the money they're paying the guys giving them. That's the part of the system that needs the fixing. Then the employees could make more, more folks would buy the products, and the companies would grow. The America myth of the invaluable CEO is killing the real potential of Capitalism.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#3 User is offline   mireaux7 Icon

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 02:18 AM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Mar 16 2007, 01:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All of a sudden there are loads of laid-off mitten makers who can't afford to shop at WalMart.


i guess im confused. if the american mitten makers are laid off, how is it that they cant afford the chinese-made mittens at wal-mart? i mean, pretty soon the laid off workers will eventually regain employment with a different company and soon buy the mittens, right?


QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Mar 16 2007, 01:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
if the folks in China decided to walk out, they might be forced back to work by the army. And don't kid yourself that the US government might not help, so as to preserve its home economy.


you bring up some interesting points regarding China., I also noticed you referenced Mumbai, India as well. It should be noted that these are two of the most populated countries in the world. If it werent for the fact that these countries, (along with others likewise) refused to work for smaller wages, the global economy would be markedly different than it currently is. The prices for goods would be much higher than we are currently accustomed to paying. Even Japanese corporations are sending much of their manufacturing labor to foreign countries as well.
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#4 User is offline   mireaux7 Icon

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 02:28 AM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Mar 16 2007, 01:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The bottom line is you should support your own economy, and that doesn't always mean buying from the biggest company around. I agree that you should want good prices, but WalMart is proving that if it can edge out enough competition, it can fool folks into not noticing that they're spending more money than ever.


I think at one time, Wal-Mart was competitively priced. In some ways, they still are. I know I can get DVDs and CDs usually cheaper at Best Buy,..almost always. What keeps wal-mart afloat is the fact they are convienent-open 24/7,.and they have one of the best return policies around. The higher price you pay, is paying for the 24/7 and the no-haggle return policy. Wal-mart is known to even restock returned merchandise that looks returned,..having staples or tape securing the packaging back together, as if you werent supposed to take notice.

sometimes i dont always buy from wal-mart because i am looking for the cheapest price,.sometimes,.i want something at 2am in the morning, and i want assurance i can return it if i have to. i know many companies also have return policies, but other companies seem much more vigilant with upholding key standards in their policies, and wal-mart is just focused on keeping consumers happy.
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#5 User is offline   mireaux7 Icon

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 02:50 AM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Mar 16 2007, 01:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But the thing that's killing the system is the multi-million dollar salaries for management. Laud higher education all you want; there is nothing done in those meetings that is worth the money they're paying the guys giving them. That's the part of the system that needs the fixing. Then the employees could make more, more folks would buy the products, and the companies would grow. The America myth of the invaluable CEO is killing the real potential of Capitalism.


I want to give you a loud and proud standing ovation on this point you made. sheer brillance, to say the least. I hate it,.I really do..what is wrong with our society? Why is it that just because someone goes to a major university and obtains a certain degree (be it associates, bachelors, masters, etc)..we reward them, with open arms,,and say,.."oh,..wow..youve hit the books hard...here,you are entitled to make $100,000 a year salary,..congrats!"

there are many famous people who earn a lot of money, and have never went to college in their lifes. somewhere in the course of american history, we snubbed our noses high in the air, and decided that if someone did not possess college certification, that they are a complete idiot, they dont deserve to earn a handsome salary, and are destined to perform the work of a commanded lemming for the rest of their days.

and this is just the tip of the iceberg,..i wont get into sports athletes, movie stars, politicians, and the like, whose salaries are sooo enormous they literally have no idea what to do with all their cash. need i mention michael jackson's possession of the elephant man's bones??

yet, in this same country of ours, there are people who strive dilgently to make sure there is food on the table for their family every day. there are people on the streets who sleep in cold dirty alleys every night. its a shame.

i believe in a "controlled capitalist economy"..that is,.a economy that is much like our own,.with one key exception: there should be a government mandated cap placed on all occupations which limits earning potential. so for example,..lets take someone who is severly overpaid,.say a movie star. this movie star stars in a movie that turns out to be a box office smash success. under normal conditions (the way things are now) he would earn over $100 million for his role.

in a controlled capitalist economy, this same star featured in the same film, would be capped out at an earning potential of say,..$10 million...that would be like the universal standard,.the most any actor/actress would be allowed to earn for any film, regardless of genre, etc.

the leftover revenue (the $90 million you are wondering about) would be turned over to the government as a sort of mandated donation. this money would be used for things like schools, roads, poverty, welfare, medicare, social security, military, etc.

in case you are wondering, it would also be a taxless society. thats right, no taxes on anything, ever. because, the pay scale for all employees-regardless of the occupational field they pursue would be divided into classes and ranks (mirroring much like the military's infrastructure). the additional monies from "capped earnings" would basically pay for the things that taxes normally pay for.

This post has been edited by mireaux7: 16 March 2007 - 02:54 AM

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#6 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 03:01 AM

QUOTE
Still the college-bound folks smugly grinned that they'd just go into computer programming. Well I sure hope those folks are ready to move to Mumbai, cause that's where those jobs are going now. Who knows what's next?


That is golden. I'm seeing that first hand right now. We had a an architectural firm, we worked along side, ship off drafting and remedial design stage, for a commercial building project, to India. This arch firm on the project got the sack (sort of, you can't just sack a firm while on project, long story and don't fully understand it) because they didn't even bother to review the drawings they recieved back from over seas. It was sent for coordination with the engineers and the client's Project manager. The fucking plans had plumbing fixtures (like toilets) in the middle of the garden and gas cooking stoves in the lobby. The Indian engineers obviously have a generic "plumbing symbols" book but didn't understand it. Our best guess is that they confused the toilet with a fountain or sprinkler system. The gas cooking stove was suppose to be a sofa I think. Also, the receptionists desk was located in the back of the office and it was sealed off by walls with no doors or windows.

It was more than obvious they got a firm from India to take care of this for them, a firm that didn't understand the N.American standards for drawing blocks or even English for that matter. You can literally hire 5 pseudo designers in India for the price of one engineer, or even more. The job is done quicker because of the extra man power they have, but the quality is fucking shit. But it doesn't matter too much, had the architects bothered to review the drawings they could have cleaned it up in a weeks time or less and still walked away with left over fees.

----------------

Another great point how over seas products don't need to be cheap to sell is the guitar. Many companies are guilty of charging 1000s of dollars for models that never felt the touch of a human hand, but rather by a lathe and milling machine from china which was then dropped in a box for shipping by a mechanized hand. THe sticker on the box says "designed the in USA" so why not pay the extra cash.

I'm pretty damn sure middle America or Canada can afford the extra few bucks on dvds and clothing and even the splurge on the 1 time buy of a guitar. Most of us are in debt or are riding it and we purchase Asian made goods. I'm not really sure if buying N.American products will run us into bankruptcy.

The US is so gun-ho about patriotism and living in the land of the free yada yada. Why not but your words into action and support your local business. Call it patriotism and spend the extra bucks, which you probably wouldn't save any way.

-------

CEO is a dog fucker position. Our CEO writes a small passage in our quarterly newsletter, attends some conferences, and wears a nice suit. I swear this is his entire job in practice. In theory his only job is to make money for the share holders. This means he needs to review the numbers, which some one else analyzed, complied, and gave to him. He then sits down with his associates and decides if it's time to wholesale sack or hire. He needs to do this every few months because if he doesn't the share holders will become angry (business is slumping) and sack his ass. But between quarterly reviews of the companies profits, I can't fathom what the hell he does. He does not reel in jobs, he does not meet with workers, and he does not control payroll (unless maybe the quarterly sit down arrives, he may lower wages)

This waste of space probably rakes in half a million a year. I"m guessing that number, but my company is very large. This year, for a christmas bonus, workers all got a safeway card good for 30 bucks. The Associates in our office got something else, but nobody knows what it is. We know it was not the card cause one of them asked us "what is the deal with all those cards around office".


If our CEO died, the work would go on. I've only ever seen his face in the newsletter and I can't even remember his name. I do however deface his image when I see it, I give him one tooth and snot running out of his nose.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 16 March 2007 - 03:20 AM

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#7 User is offline   blueoceans Icon

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 03:36 AM

Jordan, may i ask what company you work for, or if you prefer to keep it a secret at least the nature of your company's business?
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Posted 16 March 2007 - 04:09 PM

I don't have a Walmart here but I read about them taking away people's land to build more stores under some economic act. I am highly against that.

This post has been edited by Deepsycher: 16 March 2007 - 04:09 PM

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 04:24 PM

Repeat after me, Rainman ... WalMart sucks.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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Posted 16 March 2007 - 04:31 PM

There are a whole lot of points to address here, but I can't address them now. I shall later, though!
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Posted 16 March 2007 - 04:33 PM

I take that as an insult! And from your avatar a slap. Not as if I am brain damaged Uncivilized Numbers in Two!

If you are implicating me in the film Rainman that is very ignorant considering I don't live near a Walmart. Not that I like it. Just pointing out how they exploit land.

I can believe that the quality may not be good.
"Sometimes you pay for what you get."

There are many cheap convenience stores in my town centre. One day I looked around in several huge cheap saving stores. They were selling pans for ridiculously low prices. I looked at them and thought to myself at these plastic flimsy handles "These handles are going to break off." When I came back a week later, on the shop's window I saw recalls to return the pans as the handles posed a danger of snapping off under heavy load.

This post has been edited by Deepsycher: 16 March 2007 - 04:59 PM

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 05:00 PM

I don't quite get what the fuzz is about.

WalMart = reseller.
WalMart != manufacturer.

Reseller = prioritizes customer's wants and needs
No specific wants and needs = Reseller prioritizes cost of accquisition

Therefore

Buying at WalMart != support big bad evil capitalistic thingies

Buying stuff from big bad evil capitalistic thingies which is presented on WalMart's tables = support big bad evil capitalistic thingies

And stuff.

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#13 User is offline   Deepsycher Icon

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 10:36 PM

First fuss. Chinese products are about everywhere these days.

Second fuss:
QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Mar 16 2007, 04:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Repeat after me, Rainman ... WalMart sucks.


I hope that remark was not directed at me in reference to the film. If it is then Civilian number 2 could just be as bad as the company in question here for calling me a retard and attempting sarcastic control tactics as if I was stupid. Last of all I wouldn't want to use the word sucks in that context because it is meaningless to me.

This post has been edited by Deepsycher: 16 March 2007 - 10:37 PM

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#14 User is offline   mireaux7 Icon

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 10:42 PM

QUOTE (Deepsycher @ Mar 16 2007, 04:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't have a Walmart here but I read about them taking away people's land to build more stores under some economic act. I am highly against that.


I dont know where exactly you reside, but if you live in the United States and are highly against the principle of taking land from others...well,..its the backbone of our history.

Little appreciation or respect given to the unfortunate Native Americans who shed blood sweat and tears to make our dreams happen, mind you.
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Posted 16 March 2007 - 10:52 PM

They call it land of the free but not if you are black.

Similar principle in that capitalist translation: White skin good black skin bad.


For WalMart I'll repeat my definitions here:

WalMart:

Where All Liars Meet And Rob Towns

WalMart And Lawmakers Manage Area Repossession Takeovers

WalMart Attempt Land Milking At Resident's Turfs

This post has been edited by Deepsycher: 16 March 2007 - 11:02 PM

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