[civilian_number_two]

I don't really want to start a heated debate with you guys who think that Return of the Jedi is a tolerable Star Wars movie but I thought it a little odd that you think it is better than the original Star Wars.

...

AMG, I'm glad you decided not to get into it!!!



I agree with anyone who says that JEDI is "not that bad" and "not worth picking on" and "not as bad as the PT," which I'm sure we all agree are about as relevant to STAR WARS as the Lucas-penned EWOK movies.

Anyone who prefers JEDI to STAR WARS was young enough when JEDI came out not to have found the muppet show at the begining a bit stupid. Lucas's goal there was to "make the Cantina scene I had wanted to make in STAR WARS, but hadn't had the budget for." So the entire Jabba the Hut sequence, really, and the decision to put Jabba on Tatooine rather than anywhere else, in fact pretty much every decision made in JEDI was wankery.

Lucas dropped the ball in many key ways, not least of which was the silly James Bond nothing-to-do-with-the-main-storyline intro. He also had a second Death Star, a face-off with Vader that was more or less just a continuation of the better one we'd already seen in EMPIRE, a weak resolution to the "there is another" riddle, a borrowed "master dies" dramatic moment (much weaker than its counterpart in STARWARS), Vader turn to good, "from a certain point of view," Road-to-Morocco comedy in the jungle with Luke and Han, the cliche of the savages thinking someone is a God, good God, to name a few.

I don't agree that Lucas told a story that was as engaging or as endearing as the one he told in STAR WARS. I agree, however, that he made a movie that was at least as entertaining as WILLOW, and about as important. "Many thinks so." JEDI is definitely the third best STAR WARS movie, which I mean as praise, of a sort. The PT films I rank in the same way I do THE GODFATHER PART III: they never happened.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

But, civilian i will say this.


I think the complaints about ROTJ are more about personal preferences and tastes rather than quality of filmmaking. I rank ROTJ second out of the Star Wars movies and that is that!! it does not make me unwashed our a culture peon to say that. it is my perogative. In my opinion ANH is actually a lot closer to the PTs than a lot of people care to admit, and i still like ANH a million times better than the PTs If you take ROTJ as a movie out of the Star Wars context it is a good movie. Others just had different expectations of it. Me and wing and others had our expectations met in ROTJ. It is a matter of personal preference.

But as is seen on this site, we ALL for the most part agree that whatever your preferences the PTs were HORRIBLE MOVIES. Any one can see that, except for those that like mindless special effects bonanzas.

I will not argue on this. Trying to convince civilian that ROTJ was a great movie is like trying to get George Lucas to stop directing Star Wars films I call a truce on this point.

I will..................make a case that ANH has some very PT like elements in it that should have given us a clue about George Lucas' view of the Star Wars trilogies.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

I will not argue on this. Trying to convince civilian that ROTJ was a great movie is like trying to get George Lucas to stop directing Star Wars films  I call a truce on this point

Believe me civilian, If i had the power to do both , I would use my energy on the later.

[Vwing]

While STAR WARS is a timeless classic, I really think the pacing of it is less exciting than the pacing of ROTJ (especially in the final 30 minutes or so). I mean you immediately have an opening with a fabulous rendition of the Imperial March, getting you right into the story. Then you have the set-up scenes at Jabba's palace, as you have Leia and then Luke come to try to rescue. All-in-all, I liked the opening (save the musical number, that I prefer to think of as never happening), and I disagree with you to a point about Oola's (the girl who died) death. I think that shows how truly disgusting Jabba is. Don't you just feel his evil when he drops this innocent slave-girl to her death? Anyway, back to the scene, the lead-in to the Sail Barge battle is excellent, with the great cues from John Williams, and it turns into an entertaining battle, cutting quickly among the different characters. The one thing I will concede about the battle is that Fett dies like a pussy. That's all.

Then we go into Luke's scene with Yoda, which I really thought was touching. The combination of the music, and Luke's sadness is just one of the more emotional scenes in the trilogy. Ben's "certain point of view" line is kinda stupid, but almost necessary to show that Anakin and Vader are 2 different people, and that Anakin can be saved while Vader is destroyed. The Luke-Leia thing I've never had a problem with other than their kiss in ESB.

I agree that Han is reduced in ROTJ, but that's because it really is Luke's movie. He takes over, with the others taking a backseat to his internal struggle, as well as his struggle with his father. Ewoks I've also never had a problem with. I watched ROTJ again after not seeing it for many years to see if I would, and I didn't. I love the scene where 3P0 is telling the story of their adventures, as it harkens back to his "not good at telling stories" line in STAR WARS, and the battle is a not intolerable diversion with a couple nice moments. It's not nearly the best part of the movie, but it keeps the plot moving forward.

And I really think the last 30-45 mins is some of the most exciting moviemaking I've ever seen. Intercutting the space battle, the end of the ewok battle, and the Luke-Vader battle. It really is fabulous, and does capture the magic of Star wars in those scenes. The funeral pyre is a very emotional scene, and is great cinematography as well, with the fire burning in front of Luke's silhouette. And the ending is good both ways, from the original and special editions.

Things I will concede about ROTJ:

- Musical number in Jabba's palace
- Boba Fett's death
-"Certain Point of View"
- Informality of the meeting does seem a bit strange looking back on it
- Ewoks definitely annoying at times, though for the most part they're ok
- Vader should have done more than throw an old man off a ledge to redeem himself. He should have really become in touch with the Living Force, combining his energies with those of his son, who together do defeat the Emperor and bring an end to the destructive conflict, but from the Light Side. I like the redemption thing, but the way it was done I always felt was a bit weak.

So All-in-all, I have a strange way of rating this.

Is this the best-made movie of the trilogy? NO.
Is this the most entertaining movie of the trilogy? Yes, tied with the original.

I would say that as far as well-made movies, ESB is first, with STAR WARS, and then ROTJ (though many aspects of ROTJ are better-made than STAR WARS, some are also much worse, so STAR WARS is more consistent).

As far as entertaining movies, I would say, sincerely, STAR WARS and ROTJ tied for first, with ESB last. ESB is great, but because of its tone, it is not as entertaining for me, not as much of a pure joyride for me, as the original and ROTJ.

I most definitely feel it is worthy to put in the same sentence with the original and ESB (no word games there Civ ).

And now, c'mon, this is a prequel bashing forum, let's get back to that huh!

[Vwing]

And Mike, just cause ANH was directed by Lucas doesn't mean it automatically has to be compared with the prequels. That was a different time, a different Lucas. The dialogue is thousands of times better than the prequels (I actually think many people underrate the dialogue and the acting of the original Star Wars). It is a movie that has given us many memorable lines, wheras TPM gives us midichlorians, yousa people gonna die, and AOTC gives us something about Power Converters, Padme being smooth not like sand, and about Yoda and Dooku needing lightsabers. The direction is very good as well. The scene where Luke is looking out into the twin suns is beautiful, the scene at the beginning with the pod being shot into space is as well. The final battle is orchesterated very well, though it comes off as a bit long. The lightsaber fight focuses on dialogue and grit rather than choreography (as does most of the movie). It is a very different movie from the PT movies. There may be some similarities, which probably isn't a horrible thing for the prequels, but some similarities don't make a movie, and you can't really compare the original with the prequels in my book.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

To Vwing,

And Mike, just cause ANH was directed by Lucas doesn't mean it automatically has to be compared with the prequels. That was a different time, a different Lucas. The dialogue is thousands of times better than the prequels (I actually think many people underrate the dialogue and the acting of the original Star Wars). It is a movie that has given us many memorable lines, wheras TPM gives us midichlorians, yousa people gonna die

Oh by no means am I bashing ANH! I love the movie and will watch several times. It is lightyears ahead of the Prequel movies. What I do see are elements of ANH and Lucas preperation of it that are evident in the PTs. If Lucas could do half the job he did in ANH, the Prequels will be fine.

BTW, vwing

1. I liked the Max Rebo Band scenes. Some of the music is pretty good too.
2. The scene between yoda and Luke is one of the most touching and saddest scenes I have ever seen in the trilogy. It is one of my favorite scenes in the trilogy. Remember the music, when yoda says "Luke.... do not...DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE POWERS OF THE EMPEROR." The music and the tone of the delivery of that line is simply wonderful. I rewind my copy hundreds of times just to hear that one part. Yoda disappearing was a very nice scene, Luke is now alone he has been orphaned for the third time.
3. Luke and Leia Forest scene is also a very wonderful scene, especially since it wasn't even a cliche love scene. It was a revelation. The dialogue is not perfect but the emotion of the scene is captured wonderfully. ROTJ has some of the best acting in this trilogy IMO by Fisher and Hamill. I don't think. The scene with Han enterng and holding the crying Leia was good, to.
4. Darth Vader's death. Another powerful scene. "You right about me, Tell your sister that you were right...." Solo guitar does the darth Vader theme. Nice music and wondeful atmosphere.

ROTJ has some of the warmest and saddest scenes in the Trilogy. ROTJ's ha sthe feeling of the END to it. The end of Luke's destiny, the end of the war, the resolution of the love triangle. You get the feeling that the story has to end here in ROTJ, there is nothing left to tell in the story.

[Vwing]

No the Max Rebo band scenes weren't horrible, I meant the SE musical number with that weird guy (Sy Snootles or something right?). And I agree, ROTJ had the strongest acting in the trilogy, except by Ford, who really just felt he didn't need to do this anymore and finished the trilogy reluctantly. But I thought Hamill was fabulous, very underrated in this, makes a very good transition to Jedi from whiny farm boy, and we see both his discipline, and his conflict. JEJ and Prowse are great as Vader, McDiarmid really steals his scenes, he is truly sinister (and is one of the only good parts of the prequels as well). And Fisher, despite being high, does give a good performance (and we could forgive her even if she didn't b/c of the metal bikini, right ). Just very good performances, and very emotional moments (especially when Admiral Piett dies).

And you're right, I didn't understand exactly what you were saying about ANH and the prequels, but there are elements of it in the prequels. If only he expanded on them.

[civilian_number_two]

I will not argue on this. Trying to convince civilian that ROTJ was a great movie is like trying to get George Lucas to stop directing Star Wars films I call a truce on this point.

I will..................make a case that ANH has some very PT like elements in it that should have given us a clue about George Lucas' view of the Star Wars trilogies.

I can't accept a truce offering that comes on the heels of a snipe about STAR WARS being "closer to the PT than a lot of people care to admit." From hell's heart, I stab at thee!

1 ) JEDI is more action-packed than STAR WARS, yes, but this doesn't make it a better movie. TEMPLE OF DOOM is more action-packed than RAIDERS. Hell, so was WILLOW, which is why I brought it up in the first place. STAR WARS is a 70s film, and JEDI is an 80s film. There's a rift between them. STAR WARS is bigger on story, such as it has story at all, while JEDI is bigger on action (Lucas had made action cheaper, and a lot of films were bigger on action in those days). A good test is how easily you could make a great sequel to each film: STAR WARS had enough story that a whole series of sequels could have been derived; JEDI was pretty limited, and I think that's why Lucas quit. And frankly, the action is not as great as the action in another STAR WARS film that I won't mention because you tend to get prickly when I do. However, for the lurkers, I'll leave a hint: it's the second one.

2 ) Didn't anyone else feel that everything Lucas had to go through in JEDI was the result of him being written into a corner in the last one (ok, FW does, so there's one)? Han is captured, so we have to make a big deal out of the rescue. Right, now Vader is Luke's father, but I want a happy ending... hmmm. And this "no, there is another" line, and the fact that Ben lied to Luke in the first film ... Ok. I got a great line that will deal with that, noone will boo at all ... Now there's this love triangle I gotta resolve ... and I guess I need a big action scene. I wonder if anyone would mind a second Death Star?

Frankly some of the storylines explored in the Marvel comic book series were better than JEDI, which is a lot closer to the PT than a lot of people are willing to accept. (!!!!!)

3 ) Guys your age call the first film "A NEW HOPE." Guys my age call it STAR WARS. Something I've noticed.

4 ) You needn't worry about convincing Lucas to stop making STAR WARS movies. He stopped in 1983, with JEDI. These things he's doing now are big-budget fan flicks, with his name on them. Lucas is no longer qualified to make his own movies, and if saying so makes me a huge nerd, then God damn it.


:yuck:

[Mike Mac from NYU]

Lucas is no longer qualified to make his own movies, and if saying so makes me a huge nerd, then God damn it.

Language, civilian !!! Please!! This is civil discourse. I crossed the line once and apologized. This is "civil" discourse here {Hey, I made a pun!!! }

Civilian. You an I are two immovable objects. Were not gonna change each other s opinions anytime in the near future. {maybe in the alternate future. }. I could come up with a thousand page diatribe on every point you made and all that would happen would be you written a five thousand page diatribe against my diatribe. {What does diatribe, mean anyway????... sorry legacy of a C+ in High School English, that's probably why I am into filmmaking } Anyway that type of back and forth exchange between us would provide nothing but us wasting precious minutes of our lives and providing the other people on this forum with loads of free entertainment. Probably more entertainment than they got form the the present trilogy. I will post my opinions on similarities between ANH and the present trilogy. I will answer NO posts that involve an extensive debate about the quality of any of the OT episodes in relation to one another. I will answer his other posts.

That being said I leave with this controversial post. ANH has flaws, moronic lines and plot incosistencies all it's own. The reason nobody brings them up is that ANH is beloved by civilian and others. I LOVE ANH as well. But here are some things to consider.

1. A new hope is the closest of the six movies to the junk sci-fi serials that Lucas based the movie on. Think: Boy hero, evil overlord in dark, space heroine needing to be rescued, three heroes kill a whole army of stormtroopers, Death Ray device. Not far from the Flash Gordon serials. Which is a lot of what ATOCs is!

2. There is the goofy "Wizard of Oz" skipping scene that Luke, Leia and Han do after the Death Star has been destroyed. Check out the hangar scene when Luke has left his x-wing. You can practically hear 'ding-dong-the witch-is dead "throughout the skipping.

3. People assail the Ewoks as being "childish", yet seem perfectly acceptable of having a bunch of little munchkin like guys in robes saying "Ontoneeee" {or something like that}.

4. People complain about the Ewok battle being unrealistic when a bunch of Teddy Bears with sticks defeat an Imperial squad. Yet they have no trouble with one X-wing with an inexperienced pilot able to evaid and survive the massive resources of a Space stations gunneries, fighters, not to mention the aid of one experienced Sith Lord targeting him from behind.

5. ANH is filled with some bad dialogue. "Get this walking carpet, out of my way" is as bad as "Hey, Dr. Jones no time for lovemaking". {And I LOVED Temple of Doom by the way}

6. The Death Star is your greatest weapon and you have it's only weakspot so easy to be destroyed by onesmall fighters torpedo?? ROTJ corrected this by making the Death Star's defenses more realistic. The superstructure {needed 5 torpedoes to destroy}, the force field, having an actual fleet there to protect it. Basic common knowledge that any strategist would use.

7. ANH easily has the worst acting of the OT films. Check some of Fisher's and Hammil's lines. Even Vader comes of a little hammy. His character was perfected in ESB.

I overlook all those things because I found the movie enjopyable. If I hated the movie I would use these nitpicking points as an all out assail on ANH much in the same way that other's have assailed ROTJ

And another thing, if there was ever an OT movie I would redo and change a little, ANH would be it. There are times I think that ANH sometimes seems too different in tone from ESB and ROTJ. I would smooth out some of the scenes in ANH to make it more realistic and more in line with the themes establish in ESB and resolved in ROTJ. That being said I would probably leave ANH alone. But if I HAD to redo one movie in the OT it would be ANH.



I will leave with this controversial tidbit of info that I will

[Supes]

That said I always wondered about the silly little interruption with Han blowing up the shield generator... the Emperor says "So be it, Jedi." and then we cut to Han for a few minutes and come back to Luke and the Emperor standing exactly where they were when we last saw them and the Emperor says "If you will not be turned, you will be destroyed."

As soon as he said, "So be it, Jedi.", he should have just let Luke have it. I mean, what were they doing in the interim?

Well it wasn't an interruption. It was the only way Lucas could come up with a way of show action that was taking place "simultaneously". I suppose he could have used a stupid split screen, but we all know that would have been simply absurd.

Simply, there was no space in time there. As such, it is not necessary for one to try and imagine what the dialogue may have been. This is simply Lucas' attempt at creating suspense. I personally didn't have a problem with it, but I gues that comes from registering that I was seeing what was supposed to be simultanous events.

[Just your average movie goer]

Whoa.. that was fun... I've just been catching up on this post. I have an apology... I should have taken out my "I don't want to start a heated argument..." line.

When I wrote that, I didn't want to start a heated argument but then my fingers started moving faster and faster and stuff just started coming out and before I knew it, I had written a small novel and hit "Add Reply".

Anyway, I suppose that since I started this mess, I should participate in the fun!

And Mike, you should participate in the fun too. I was disappointed to hear that you don't want to get into the debate. I agree with you that we're not going to change each other's minds.... but hey, it's still fun and like you said, it's entertaining.

And Civilian, thank you for your support through this. I was a bit surprised to find that the "Star Wars is better than Return of the Jedi" camp was so small. But we've got to hold the fort.

I'd just like to say that someone raised a good point about my complaint involving Jabba feeding that girl to the rancor. It DID show what a disgusting evil creature he was and for the most part, that is okay... EXCEPT that Han once worked for the guy. Now the Han Solo we met in Star Wars didn't have the strongest code of morals and ethics but he was not evil. His boss Jabba therefore has to be limited in how evil he was. I'd say that Jabba and Han are both big fans of money and they'd do almost anything to get to their hands on it. The difference is that Jabba is a vindictive bastard and when Han doesn't pay him back straight away, their friendship is over and he's sending bounty hunters all over the galaxy to get him.

That evil slug in Return of the Jedi just isn't right. Also the whole rescue was pretty stupid too. Before going in, Luke put all his friends in Jabba's hands so now he had to rescue everybody. That seems pretty strange. And it was a really stupid risk - what if Jabba had handed Han over and kept the droids? What if he had killed Chewbacca and Leia (and Han too for that matter)? It was unnecessarily elaborate. Luke could have busted in there and killed the lot of them and rescued Han. If he wanted to give Jabba a chance to hand Han over willingly, then it doesn't make sense that he'd give Jabba both Artoo and Threepio to keep. And lastly, for the love of God, why was Boba Fett there? He is not one of Jabba's henchmen. He is a bounty hunter. He did his job for Jabba - it was time to go and do another job. How does he expect to make a living if he's not prepared to work?

Also, the point was raised that the Death Star was more difficult to destroy in Return of the Jedi than it was in Star Wars. That really doesn't seem like the case. Once the shield was down, it was a piece of cake. The superstructure isn't lined with firing turrets and the main reactor was a pretty easy target.

Also, they shouldn't have re-hashed the Death Star. It really brought out the deja vu. Besides, the Imperial Fleet in the Empire Strikes Back proved much more effective than a Death Star could ever be. The firepower could be spread out, many targets could be attacked at once. The Imperial Fleet was scary.

The third movie should have taken us into the Empire's stronghold - Coruscant.

Also, someone raised the point that they don't like the Empire Strikes Back as much as Return of the Jedi because it's so downbeat. That's a good argument. In fact it's the only argument that I can understand for liking Return of the Jedi more.

I liked it more when I was a child for the same reason.

You know, I would watch the whole Star Wars trilogy over and over again when I was growing up. I loved it. As I got older, there were much longer gaps between the times I watched it however and things sort of changed.

The more I saw Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back, the more I loved them. They seemed better and better and I was always seeing new reasons to appreciate them. However, Return of the Jedi has not aged well. The more I see it, the worse it seems. While the other movies grew as classics, Return of the Jedi became a cheesy blockbuster movie (with its moments but overall, very weak).

Also, Civilian raised a good point about how a lot of you guys refer to the original Star Wars movie as A New Hope. I know that's the title of the episode but that's not how anyone I know refers to it and it's always said Star Wars on the box. So why are you guys doing that?

[Supes]

And Civilian, thank you for your support through this. I was a bit surprised to find that the "Star Wars is better than Return of the Jedi" camp was so small. But we've got to hold the fort.

I sit in this camp also, but I think you'll find it's not as small as it may appear from the posts. I'd be willing to bet that if we took a poll on this forum then we'd find a majority that rate the films:

1. Empire
2. Star Wars
3. Jedi

I just can't be bothered setting up a poll just yet. Keeping up reading these posts is quite taxing. Highly enjoyable, but deffinately taxing on time.

[Just your average movie goer]

Thanks, Supes. It was good to hear that. Welcome to the fort. It should be interesting to see how the poll turns out though... I wonder where most people actually sit on this.