[cactuscat222]

I know this is a little off topic...

But in TN, I never got the "it hurts" hallucenation. Which one was that? I know all of them had you say "it hurts", but I noticed a few people referenced "it hurts" as one of its own hallucinations.

[Don Andy]

Hmm...

Any proponent of the loop-theory, please enlighten me: how can you explain the purpose of the New Prince? In the game, he gently sends Cabadath to a better place, then much later blocks a mysterious tunnel in Chzo to force Somerset into the void. If we talk about his powers and abilities, he's clearly effective as Chzo's garbage chute inspector. But I don't think that's all.

1, Cabadath was weaker than optimal, he might work against Chzo, but what we know surely is his soul object would not last eternally. That's the direct cause of creating the NP.

2, In the game it is said and showed that Chzo wanted the New Prince. The loop-theory, I think is changing the cause with the goal, and interprating this change as an implication of some key moments of the game. (more clearly: the loop happened because the nature of the Bridge, and not the loop was created using the Bridge as a building block, and the NP as a pawn)

Now two more abstract arguments:

3, I don't think the culmination of the game, the purpose of Chzo was to create a bit more effective pawn who "later" plays a role in his own creation. After all the important and painful events, that would be a bit cheap solution.

4, enjoying the loop is enjoying the same pain over and over again. Repetition is boring, and Boredom is one of the Pains of the Mind. Chzo is an extremely sadistic being, and besides this, we know that it can feel pain (saving Trilby makes him furious) which was unpleasant. The loop eventually would be a torture for Chzo.

And another little thing: Chzo obviously exists beyond the loop. The transcendence of Somerset is not an end, the world of magic also moves on.

Anyone tried to used the hand icon on Chzo's eye in the end? The NP says if you do this: protect him always. That might be more than a brainwashed sentence of a slave, maybe one of his role really is to protect Chzo.

Does anybody have a clue about the soul object of the NP (if he has)?

(sorry for the strange English, it's not my first language. And I might have misunderstood some things, really tough to understand the plot. Awesome work, Yahtzee, by the way, never seen anything like it.)

The purpose of the New Prince in short form: Cabadath became "incapable" of further serving his master, since he was plotting for his own, and not doing what Chzo wants him to do, mainly delivering pain. He knew that right from the start and thus plotted right from the beginning to replace Cabadath when the time comes.

Oh, and I don't think Chzo is capable of torturing himself somehow. He can't inflict pain on himself because he FEEDS on pain. That would be like a human who grows food right inside his stomach. Through this entire loop thing he rather guaranteed himself that he will get the pain of the others over and over again.

Can't give any answers for the rest though.

I know this is a little off topic...

But in TN, I never got the "it hurts" hallucenation. Which one was that? I know all of them had you say "it hurts", but I noticed a few people referenced "it hurts" as one of its own hallucinations.

Everytime you enountered the Tall Man in a flashback or came into a hallucination where interacting wasn't allowed, the words "it hurts" came as response for everything you typed. Like the one were you suddenly are in the cellar of the DeFoe mansion and John comes walking at you.
That was pretty startling, because that's the same thing your read in the diary of the crippled corpse at the foot of the staircase.

Also, there was a hallucination, that when you entered a new room, and entered something, all of sudden "it hurts" came as an answer, for no appearent reason. If you typed something again, all that came was "it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts"
That was EXTREMLY startling, because "it hurts" usually only came in connection with John or the Tall Man, which constantly made you think something is gonna jump right at you.

[Blueskirt]

It happen at the same time as you switch to the dark world, except as Don noted, any interraction on your surrounding will results with "it hurts" replies until the hallucination is over. So it's highly possible that you have seen this one but did not notice it because there is nothing visually, you simply thought you switched in the dark world and you did not interract at your surrounding until the hallucination was over. Maybe it's a badly coded hallucination which doesn't happen for some reasons. Maybe the hallucination actually works but only in certain screens. I don't know.

This post has been edited by Blueskirt: 02 February 2007 - 06:22 AM

[Ryu]

I thought the random "it hurts" wich weren't IN a visual hallucination was just a bug.

One thing I didn't quite understand was why Malcolm Somerset relived all the murders on the Mephistopheles as though he had done them himself, with everyone else in the room (including the version of himself that was actually there) replaced with John DeFoe apron+mask+machete instances. It was an incredibly awesome game sequence from a cinematic point of view, with his robe becoming torn and bloodied as he descends the stairs, gradually transforming him into what we recognise as the mysterious Caretaker, but plotwise I don't really know why those particular flashbacks happened or what they signified.

Anybody care to enlighten me?

I would've actually liked it, if the player wasn't given any control while descending down. This would've actually made it a lot more cinematic and you could focus on watching this scene, wich in my opinion, was one of the best and most important scenes in the game. I personally had a little trouble first actually getting down the stairs, so it would've been nice if you wouldn't have had to do that at all. Just watch.


A general question: When did you recognize Somerset as being the Caretaker? Was it before the whole scene? Was it after the first/second/third/fourth flashback? Inside Chzo? After the scene?

I personally started suspecting this right after the first flashback, but thought it wouldn't really be true. (partially because I didn't spot his loss of hair at that point yet.)

[Gobbler]

I was kinda slow there, only recognized him when I saw how his robe was gradually turning red. I remember because that little shock mixed well with the laughter that followed when I saw how he was getting bald.

Then my colleague (who's so bald, that you can actually see what's on his mind) came over and hit me.

[joshofalltrades]

Hmm...

Any proponent of the loop-theory, please enlighten me: how can you explain the purpose of the New Prince? In the game, he gently sends Cabadath to a better place, then much later blocks a mysterious tunnel in Chzo to force Somerset into the void. If we talk about his powers and abilities, he's clearly effective as Chzo's garbage chute inspector. But I don't think that's all.

I already tried to explain my thoughts in an earlier post... but when Chzo pulled Theo through the Bridge, then turned him into the new Prince, he was ensuring that the cycle would continue. The caretaker saw the New Prince, then leaped through the hole, escaping Chzo. I don't think he was afraid of the New Prince, but if you are familiar with the Butterfly Effect, you would know that even a slight change would produce a totally different result. Therefore Chzo had to create the New Prince to perpetuate the cycle.

___________________________________

The question that nobody has asked, but needs to be answered is: in Countdown 2, why did the Caretaker duplicate Frehorn's blade? The only thing I can think of is to give one to his future self, and keep one for himself. If somebody else has another theory, please let me know.

[Gobbler]

Maybe he's a collector?

[El Presedente]

When Somerset started becoming the cartaker I had a slight suspicion that he was becoming the originals 'Replacement' rarther than them both being him all along. Then I saw he was bald.

[Millitant Pacifist]

One thing I didn't quite understand was why Malcolm Somerset relived all the murders on the Mephistopheles as though he had done them himself, with everyone else in the room (including the version of himself that was actually there) replaced with John DeFoe apron+mask+machete instances. It was an incredibly awesome game sequence from a cinematic point of view, with his robe becoming torn and bloodied as he descends the stairs, gradually transforming him into what we recognise as the mysterious Caretaker, but plotwise I don't really know why those particular flashbacks happened or what they signified.

Anybody care to enlighten me?

I thought it was just because he felt guilty. Insane too.

[David-kyo]

I thought it's because his mind was sort of junctioned to DeFoe's, who saw his father (his tormentor) in every person. For Malcolm, it was DeFoe who had ruined his life thus he sees him in everything that he considers evil. I think their fears are combined somehow, but perhaps I'm totally wrong here. Perhaps he's just ridden with guilt.

[Ryu]

I thought it's because his mind was sort of junctioned to DeFoe's, who saw his father (his tormentor) in every person. For Malcolm, it was DeFoe who had ruined his life thus he sees him in everything that he considers evil. I think their fears are combined somehow, but perhaps I'm totally wrong here. Perhaps he's just ridden with guilt.

Or maybe it the whole ship was run by a crew of DeFoe-lookalikes and Somerset was the true killer! Rawr!

Okay, thinking about it seriously, I believe it is just Somerset's mind going crazy. (Agony of the Mind, anyone?) Think of it, Somerset never actually killed any of the members of the ship, but got accused. He got sent to a mental hospital and everyone started talking of him in a way, that he killed everyone on that ship. Wouldn't that make you a bit crazy too? The human mind is quite remarkable. After all that time (how long was he there?) in the asylum, maybe his mind started giving out false memories and he started remembering that he was indeed the one who murdered all those people. Then again, deep in his mind he knows it was DeFoe and therefore kills a bunch of DeFoes in his mind all the time.

I really didn't think of it earlier, but the Caretaker went through the Agonies too, didn't he? For the purpose of...?

I'm getting a bit tired of this ranting around, but this is interesting nevertheless. I just hope Yahtzee doesn't interupt and tell us that it was all just a coincidence and Chzo was just a tourist checking out ancient Britain and got messed in all this. Maybe the Tall Man tripper over all those people he killed by accident. Or maybe this all was just part of a big reality show, that Simone had orchestrated, like good ol' Treasure Hunter implied.

[joshofalltrades]

I'm getting a bit tired of this ranting around...

Then aren't you in the wrong thread?

[Blueskirt]

The question that nobody has asked, but needs to be answered is: in Countdown 2, why did the Caretaker duplicate Frehorn's blade? The only thing I can think of is to give one to his future self, and keep one for himself. If somebody else has another theory, please let me know.

If he didn't hide it anywhere or if this wasn't just a subtle hint to make us realize Somerset and him are the same person, then it's his own blade which is disappearing. Getting the blade stolen in Countdown 2 changed the destiny of his own blade (as long he's holding the original one, how can he still have the other one?), thus he need to mail it to himself in order to receive it later and complete the cycle.

I really didn't think of it earlier, but the Caretaker went through the Agonies too, didn't he?

Nope, no agony of the body.

This post has been edited by Blueskirt: 02 February 2007 - 11:48 PM

[llamaman]

Or maybe it the whole ship was run by a crew of DeFoe-lookalikes and Somerset was the true killer! Rawr!

Okay, thinking about it seriously, I believe it is just Somerset's mind going crazy. (Agony of the Mind, anyone?) Think of it, Somerset never actually killed any of the members of the ship, but got accused. He got sent to a mental hospital and everyone started talking of him in a way, that he killed everyone on that ship. Wouldn't that make you a bit crazy too? The human mind is quite remarkable. After all that time (how long was he there?) in the asylum, maybe his mind started giving out false memories and he started remembering that he was indeed the one who murdered all those people. Then again, deep in his mind he knows it was DeFoe and therefore kills a bunch of DeFoes in his mind all the time.

I really didn't think of it earlier, but the Caretaker went through the Agonies too, didn't he? For the purpose of...?

I'm getting a bit tired of this ranting around, but this is interesting nevertheless. I just hope Yahtzee doesn't interupt and tell us that it was all just a coincidence and Chzo was just a tourist checking out ancient Britain and got messed in all this. Maybe the Tall Man tripper over all those people he killed by accident. Or maybe this all was just part of a big reality show, that Simone had orchestrated, like good ol' Treasure Hunter implied.

That, or that Somerset actually DID kill all of the people on the ship, and 7DAS was a hallucination? Or that 7DAS happened and that redrobes was the killer? Or some combination thereof, making the people think that he killed them, even though he hadn't, yet? Just some ideas I had about that scene.

Nope, no agony of the body.

Umm... what about the knife?

This post has been edited by llamaman: 02 February 2007 - 11:55 PM

[Blueskirt]

Umm... what about the knife?

Oh yes. But then again, it depends how fast he died.

More food for thought, maybe we aren't looking at the right person. The ritual, it was to bring something or someone from the universe of technology universe of magick. What if it wasn't to bring Theo? What if Chzo did not need a New Prince?

If you look at the prophecy, Trilby was supposed to destroy all body, mind and soul in 5DAS. It failed, but if it had succeeded, what would have happened? Simone, Jim and Trilby would have been sucked into the other universe and that's it. No new prince or anything and none of them suffered all 3 agonies anyway. Then in TN we're told only Trilby could accomplish the prophecy, in 6DAS he was cloned, he brought the ritual to completion, him, Theo and the Tall Man were brought in the other universe.

The thing is, Trilby is the only person linked to both ritual attempts. The only person Chzo needed. Theo and the Tall Man were brought too, Chzo saw he could no longer trust the Tall Man as his trusted lieutenant and gave that rank to Theo, but Trilby is the only person that would have been brought to him twice. Maybe we ask the wrong question. We shouldn't ask "For what purpose Chzo needed the New Prince?" but ask "Why did Chzo need Trilby?".

And on another note, I've just found an inconsistency in the plot. In the book found in the Countdown series and 6DAS, it is said that Chzo would spare the Cunning Thief and use it for its purposes, yet, on day 4, the Welder tries and can kill Trilby.