[joshofalltrades]

I may seem just stupid here...

But my question here is: Why does everyone think its either Theo or John or them combined who bacame the New Prince? I just thought Theo was the New Prince, for all he was wearing was John's clothing... He never had the idol(The Soul) or anything... Im probaly missing something, but I can't just seem to see how it might be John DeFoe. :/ I didn't think John took Theo over...

I agree with you. The whole point of the Bridge is that John DeFoe has to be completely, utterly, and totally destroyed for the Bridge to be created. Since he was destroyed so horribly (horribly, I say), there's no way that John DeFoe has any part of the New Prince. It's simply Theo (who happened to be wearing John DeFoe's garments) getting Cabadath's power zapped into him.

One of the things that just really bothered me about this game is the creation of the New Prince. I get why he has to be made (complete the cycle) but we'll never know what he's capable of. The only times we see him are when he's floating around, finishing off Cabadath or blocking a passageway. I also kind of feel like Somerset/The Caretaker is a deus ex machina. Not to say that Yahtzee wrote himself into a corner... it's just that he randomly appears in the last game and ties all the details together.

I should content myself by knowing that yes, he did indeed tie all the details together.

[Blueskirt]

Yes. I think Ryu is right on this one. It make sense and it's truly a closure to the series. No more loose ends or unanswered questions. Chzo knew the wood of the tree wouldn't last forever and this whole ritual was to get a New Prince to replace the other one that was bonded to the wood of the tree. The Prince would be of absolutly no use or possibly completly destroyed once the idol's last piece of wood would be destroyed. The Tall Man probably liked his revengeful work and did not want any of it to end anytime soon, thus defusing the bomb and increasing John DeFoe's influence by killing the Trilbies.

Yup. If that is the real reason for the New Prince, then it's some pretty twisted wicked complicated story we got here. Too bad I did not understood it the first time. On the otherside, replaying the game will now be a lot funnier.

There's just 2 questions, which I'm too tired to ponder about right now:
In TN, why the Tall Man wanted to kill Trilby before you see the third flashback (In Siobhan's room)?
In TN again, why the Tall Man wanted to kill Trilby after he came in the world of technology?

As for whoever of Theo or DeFoe is now the New Prince. I don't think it really matter, Chzo just wanted a new one that wasn't bonded to the wood of the tree.

This post has been edited by Blueskirt: 26 January 2007 - 08:52 PM

[arien]

There's just 2 questions, which I'm too tired to ponder about right now:
In TN, why the Tall Man wanted to kill Trilby before you see the third flashback (In Siobhan's room)?
In TN again, why the Tall Man wanted to kill Trilby after he came in the world of technology?

I thought it was because Cabadath knew what Chzo was trying to do (i.e. get rid of him) and was trying to stop it from happening. (It also explains why he was killing all them Trilby clones.) This brings up the question, "Well, why was Cabadath doing all this stuff to help the prophecy in the first place?" I think part of it may be that at first he didn't know what Chzo had in mind, and when he found out... well, he's still enslaved to Chzo's will, so he still has to do what he says. Just my two cents.

[ziratha]

Hi, first post, so go me.

My thoughts on the whole series was something like this:

The new prince's power was possession, essentially he could possess people so that they would become the welder murderer. In 5das, when the characters were possessed, it was the new prince that did it. Essentially the new prince was trying to bring himself into being by making trilby and the gang burn up john defoe. Much like the guide/guy from the future. (Pardon my not being skilled at remembering names).

The reason that the tall man wanted to kill trilby was because john defoe was afraid of him in 6das and to stop his interference in TN. Chzo needed defoe to be at full power to finish the necesarry step. The reason that defoe needed to be at full power was so it could possess theodore, however he/it was instead possessing janine, which is why she was killed. To leave theodore as the only one left, other than the trilby's/trilbies/trilbyi. Essentially in that last moment, defoe possessed theodore and then when the bomb goes off defoe feels himself being, well blown up and screws with theodores mind. This is why theodore becomes the floaty welder. He also has the ability of defoe to possess people but much more effectively, which is why it defoe had such trouble in 6das with janine, but the welder did it so easily in the other games. I think What finally happens inside of chzo is that the welder has theodore's burned body( hence the bandages) and the mind of a theodore / defoe hybrid (it's theodores, but the torment of being possessed by defoe screwed him up and changed him), and then in the end chzo takes the soul of the tall man and puts it into the welder.

After all of this happens, since the welder is made by chzo, it is able to effect things in the past and future simultaneously, thus it is able to effect things in 5das and 7das and possess people and generally bring itself into existence. The reason that chzo wanted the welder is so as to have an avatar in the world of technology. Chzo cannot survive in that world, but the welder can possess people there and act as it's avatar. This opens up many new opportunities to inflict suffering on people. Further, the welder himself is suffering. It has the soul of the tall man which suffered a huge amount, it has the body of theodore which was burned beyond recognition, and he mind that defoe made of his.

[guitar man]

I'm actually rather glad that the game left me with more questions then answers.
It takes balls to write something that doesn't have the same stupid Hollywood ending as every other story in existence. I like things that provoke some amount of thought.
Thank you, Yahtzee, for having big, hairy balls.


Now, for a few points of possible discussion...


1: How the crap did AJ know anything about the whole conspiracy?

2: Jim?

3: I can't believe nobody has mentioned this yet! Exactly who the hell calls you and tells you the combination (2741) for the hub door?...

Did sam randomly come back to life, dial her cellphone, call Theo, and then die again? I really hope not, since that would be the shittiest literary device imaginable.

And, why did they turn her phone off anyway?...

[MAX Acca]

After I'd finished this game, I said the following words in sequence about three times:

HOLY

FUCKING

SHIT

This is probably the only time I've really been impressed with a game's plot. Most of the time I just go with it. Not really surprised with most plot twists.

So, I won't ask any questions.

I'll just reiterate.

HOLY

FUCKING

SHIT

Anyway, if we want questions answered, I suppose we could wait for the Special Edition.

[Girdag Fireskull]

3: I can't believe nobody has mentioned this yet! Exactly who the hell calls you and tells you the combination (2741) for the hub door?...

Did sam randomly come back to life, dial her cellphone, call Theo, and then die again? I really hope not, since that would be the shittiest literary device imaginable.

And, why did they turn her phone off anyway?...

1) Who/What is on Samantha's phone after she dies, giving you the code for the camera?

It's an unexplained thing to unbalance the player, like the appearance of Serena over her corpse in 7DAS.

That's an email I sent to Yahtzee during testing, and the reply I got. Guessing it's OK to post that here, Yahtz can blank this if it isn't.

This post has been edited by Girdag Fireskull: 27 January 2007 - 04:43 AM

[SimeSublime]

My thought's on the DNA/memory thing:
True, there's no reason for clones to remember their patron body's memories. But, when talking to the Trilby that broke out of the lab, he says he had died, then was drawn to the lab. Now, we know from the text about Frehorn's Blade that when somebody dies, their mind and soul are severed from their body. My guess is that when they cloned Trilby, the new body called to the soul (or part of the soul) which was then drawn to it. The memories, being part of the mind, were slower in returning, often needing external stimuli to call back Trilby's mind from whereever it had wandered. As such, the clones weren't the 'orrigional' Trilby, but they did possess aspects of his mind and soul, at the very least.

Now, something I've been wondering. I can understand Yahtzee not answering in this thread, as it would kill all thoughts on the matter. But it does make me wonder, does Yahtzee even have answers himself, or is he just reading through our comments to pick and choose the best results as his official stance on the story? Take into account, I don't expect an answer to this question.

[True Hare]

Hey, all, it's my first posting here, and all I have to say is this game kicks gluteus maximus. The whole twist at the end, when the world seemingly ends and we are left thinking "plot hole!", only to learn that Chzo's goal was completely different... that was brilliant, there's no other word to describe. And I think this game concludes the whole "x days" saga quite well, telling us what Chzo's goal was through the entire series, and being very original at that. IMHO, there's no more story to be told, and Yahtzee would have to be a f***ing genius to come up with something that could continue the saga without destroying its spirit.

Ziratha, I don't think it likely that the New Prince is subject to the same rules of perception of time as Chzo. I think for him/it, as well as for Cabbie, time passes just like for us humans. So it doesn't seem likely he could "backpossess" people or something like that (was that a new word back there?). Why do I think that? Well, it's said in the game (just remembered where: Trilby tells the Caretaker) that Chzo perceives time as a whole. But he never says the Prince (either the old or the new one) shares this kind of perception. Just to illustrate, there's never mention of the Cabadath after this point in time, and no mention of the New Prince before. So I think the Prince, whoever he is, is stuck in the timeline just as we are. The Caretaker is just like that too, by the way. He says at the end of the game that he has to *wait* for the next time he will make a move.

There are other considerations I have, but it's seven in the morning and I have to go to bed, so maybe I'll post here again tomorrow. But all in all, this game pretty much answered all the questions I would like to see answered, while not explaining too much and ruining the atmosphere. Just perfect.

EDIT - Oh, yeah, I just remembered: have you people ever heard about the "atomic memory" or "genetic memory" theory? It could explain why the clones have Trilby's memories. I know it's a very far-fetched theory, but hey, it's fiction we are talking about here, right? And there are many instances when one clone or another suggests that they all have Trilby's memories, up to the point where the blood was taken for the cloning, of course. But I still believe the old Trilby is the last clone, it just seems right.

This post has been edited by True Hare: 27 January 2007 - 05:15 AM

[SimeSublime]

Can't be genetic memory, as somebody (my apologies, I don't have time to sift back through the posts to give proper credit) said earlier, the clone had memories of sending the idol into space, which happened after the stabbing in TN.

[rippa32]

Actually I liked your theory based on the Frehorn Blade text SimeSublime.

[Egfu]

Can't be genetic memory, as somebody (my apologies, I don't have time to sift back through the posts to give proper credit) said earlier, the clone had memories of sending the idol into space, which happened after the stabbing in TN.

That would've been me, and the whole point of that post was that only one Trilby had memories of that, which would make him the original Trilby. But nevermind, it actually makes more sense that guy was a clone too.

3: I can't believe nobody has mentioned this yet! Exactly who the hell calls you and tells you the combination (2741) for the hub door?...

A wizard did it.

[Death Chocolate]

-I've always wondered how did old Cabbie get that cool The Prince -outfit. It clearly isn't uniform as Theo/John doesn't wear it. It looks a lot like some suit to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, but in ancient Britain there probably were no such suits.

It was obviously a gift from Chzo.

So here we have three very different reactions to a Chzo-style fitness program.

Chzo-style fitnessprogram? Well if the game wasn't scary, this is!

[Ryu]

Just to back up the theory about the Tall Man's actions, I am sure that, even though he is a lich and kinda should be his own master, he is not. Chzo is the one who made him what he is. If Cabbie never would've summoned Chzo he wouldn't have become what he is. But I neither believe Chzo had it all planned in the first place either. I highly doubt he had anything to do with Cab trying to summon him up.

So all in all even though the Prince seems to have quite a lot of his own free will left, not all of it. Besides, the Tall Man is deep inside still "mortal". Nobody has ever inclined that he wouldn't feel pain or fear. And we have a Pain God. Surely Chzo has got a few tricks up his sleeves enough harsh to even scare good ol' Canning.

And on the subject of the role of the New Prince. I think that (believing in the Theo/DeFoe merge, or just Theo for that matter) the New Prince is something that is entirely of the Universe of Technology. Now, Cabbie was too, but I think that back when he lived due to the easier access between universes he had a little magic in his head.


Yahtzee has a c-guy-gets-a-robe fixation, doesn't he? (Cabadath, Canning, Caretaker) It is clear.

It was obviously a gift from Chzo.

Obviously. Why didn't I think of that.

This post has been edited by Ryu: 27 January 2007 - 07:44 AM

[David-kyo]

Cabadath's outfit is supposed to be a corrupted version of his druidic robes.