[Egfu]

Sorry to bring up an old topic, but about that Trilby Somerset killed. I think there's no way he could've been a clone, because he said he remembered shooting ole Johnny's remains up into space. Now, the clones were created from the blood on the waistcoat Trilby lost at the end of TN, but he didn't get rid of the idol until after the whole hotel incident. So a clone couldn't have had any memories about that.

I'm not going to theorize anything any further. I prefer having my head un-exploded. Just let me say it was an awesome game. It wasn't as creepy as the previous titles but it made up for that in other ways.

[joshofalltrades]

Sorry to bring up an old topic, but about that Trilby Somerset killed. I think there's no way he could've been a clone, because he said he remembered shooting ole Johnny's remains up into space. Now, the clones were created from the blood on the waistcoat Trilby lost at the end of TN, but he didn't get rid of the idol until after the whole hotel incident. So a clone couldn't have had any memories about that.

I'm not going to theorize anything any further. I prefer having my head un-exploded. Just let me say it was an awesome game. It wasn't as creepy as the previous titles but it made up for that in other ways.

In Phoenix Wright style...

OBJECTION!

If you're going to theorize that way, then how could any of the Trilbies have any of the original Trilby's memories anyway? All cloning does is create a new creature from the genetic footprint of a previously existing one. I'm no expert on cloning, but it can't reproduce memories or experiences -- it just makes a new hunk of meat with the exact same DNA as the original hunk of meat.

But, even supposing you're right -- and they somehow found a way to magically imbue the Trilby clones with the memory of the original via the blood on the waistcoat -- shooting the idol into space had to have been at least a possibility in his mind at the time. Or -- even more likely -- once the idea of shooting the idol into space was suggested, it was accepted as true by the clone, creating a false memory.

I stand by my original assertion, though. Unless magick was somehow used, there is no way that Trilby's memories leaked out onto his waistcoat with his blood. It's not scientifically possible.

(EDIT)

The more I think about it, the more I think the memory confabulation theory is the correct one. After all, the Trilbies were all blank slates until Canning programmed them. The first Trilby clone that you saw was convinced that Canning was his employer, after all...

This post has been edited by joshofalltrades: 26 January 2007 - 01:09 PM

[fabiobit]

Good. Interesting even. But it failed to scare and the atmosphere in general wasn't as good as in the previous three games.

Not to say it wasn't entertaining.

[Don Andy]

The more I think about it, the more I think the memory confabulation theory is the correct one. After all, the Trilbies were all blank slates until Canning programmed them. The first Trilby clone that you saw was convinced that Canning was his employer, after all...

To support that theory: You could walk into the mansion with all the Trilbies and have them killed of. If they really had all the memories of the original (even hidden) it should have set off as soon as the Trilbies entered the mansion, or one of them was killed off. However, they still just followed you around. Like lemmings.

Oh and for the old Trilby in Chzo. It IS a clone. Remember the last clone, who set the mansion ablaze and caused the bomb to detonate? He too was sucked through the Bridge and then was seen cowering and shivering while the new Prince "took over". The one Somerset encounters is the very same. Just later. And I guess he got the memories of the original while being in Chzo. As Chzo can see all times at once, clone-Trilby probably too could glimpse all the actions of his real counterpart. How else could he know that his life force is needed for the original?

[Plumberduck]

On the subject of when the Prince figured out that he was in trouble:

I'm of the opinion that it happened as soon as Theo DaCabe arrived on the scene. Malcolm 2.0 points out that Theo carries the taint of what he's going to become with him; it doesn't seem unlikely that Cadabath could sense it.

So, once Theo has his little fall, the Prince realizes his replacement is here and starts whacking Trilbies left and right, both to spread DeFoe's influence and to make it harder for anyone else to mess with the bomb in the basement. He seems to be able to move around in DeFoe's mind with impunity, but my question is whether he could get to the basement before Theo broke the seal on the hole. That would explain why he left it until nearly the last minute to defuse the bomb. So I'm thinking that his reaction at the end is less "What the hell are you doing" and more "This is seriously what you're replacing me with? F*ck you, dude."

[Egfu]

If you're going to theorize that way, then how could any of the Trilbies have any of the original Trilby's memories anyway? All cloning does is create a new creature from the genetic footprint of a previously existing one. I'm no expert on cloning, but it can't reproduce memories or experiences -- it just makes a new hunk of meat with the exact same DNA as the original hunk of meat.

...I really should be smart enough to remember that memories aren't stored in the DNA. *bangs head on a random wall*

On an entirely different topic, was Siobhan's last name ever revealed in TN? I have a horrible memory when it comes to fictional people's names, so I can't remember. I just thought Harty might be her descendant. Wouldn't be the first time descendancy thing in the series.

[Don Andy]

On the subject of when the Prince figured out that he was in trouble:

I'm of the opinion that it happened as soon as Theo DaCabe arrived on the scene. Malcolm 2.0 points out that Theo carries the taint of what he's going to become with him; it doesn't seem unlikely that Cadabath could sense it.

So, once Theo has his little fall, the Prince realizes his replacement is here and starts whacking Trilbies left and right, both to spread DeFoe's influence and to make it harder for anyone else to mess with the bomb in the basement. He seems to be able to move around in DeFoe's mind with impunity, but my question is whether he could get to the basement before Theo broke the seal on the hole. That would explain why he left it until nearly the last minute to defuse the bomb. So I'm thinking that his reaction at the end is less "What the hell are you doing" and more "This is seriously what you're replacing me with? F*ck you, dude."

I think this may be exactly what seemed to be missing in my version. The whole thing about the future affecting the past and all. And that making Cabadath uneasy.

@Egfu:
Siobhan Omalley. Just like Omalley Shipping Company, from which crate the idol was made.

This post has been edited by Don Andy: 26 January 2007 - 02:00 PM

[setasouji]

On an entirely different topic, was Siobhan's last name ever revealed in TN? I have a horrible memory when it comes to fictional people's names, so I can't remember. I just thought Harty might be her descendant. Wouldn't be the first time descendancy thing in the series.

If you're looking for decendancy, think back to 5DaS and Phillip Harty.

I have to say that the ending sequence was my favorite part of the game. From the Tall Man's angry "WTF!" to the shivering Trilby to the end credits with the pictures, I loved it.

[arien]

I have to say that the ending sequence was my favorite part of the game. From the Tall Man's angry "WTF!" to the shivering Trilby to the end credits with the pictures, I loved it.

Yeah, I'll agree. I must admit, I even felt bad for Cabadath there. A little.

Here's some theories that are NOT correct: Chzo killed the Tall Man due to his annoying habit of bringing in dead Trilbies and leaving them lying all over the place. The final straw came with the Tall Man's umpteenth performance of "Cabadath the Amazing Ventriloquist and his friend Lenkmann", despite the fact the Tall Man can't talk. In a fit of pique, Chzo threw Lenkmann out a portal in time and space and then used his ability to view all time at once to arrange Cabadath's destruction.

Somerset lost all his hair because magic is radioactive. Trilby died from a combination of the radiation and overdosing on those pills.

The mental image of "Cabadath the Amazing Ventriloquist and his firend Lenkmann" made me laugh so hard, as well as the quip about Trilby and those pills. Heh.

[Ryu]

Now, first of all I will talk about the actual theories (theory actually) wich I have, and then go on to rant about less serious stuff.


THEOry

Some have partly implied this already, but what I believe is truly, that Cabadath was replaced because of his weakness. Think about it. If you would be a timeless Pain God, would you want your best servant to be one that gets destroyed? This IS what happens in the end of 7 Days. Cabadath is just as bound to the doll as John is. But now then, this was all orchestrazed by Chzo. Why in the bloody nine hells did he then have to create the Bridge to bring him a new prince just because the Prince gets destroyed in the process? More pain, yes. That pretty much must be the reason. Or then Chzo just loves paradoxes. Maybe he likes the pain of peoples brains thinking about them through.

What comes to the actual New Prince I can't make up wether he is a lich or not. But let's say he is a lich: What is his soul bound to? My guess is: That kickarse spear (or whatever) he used to slap the Prince down. If he isn't a lich, then I guess Chzo eliminated another weakness in his last Prince. Also, I believe too, that John DeFoe actually became the New Prince with Theo giving him his body. But just like I think John's and Macolms minds started merging at the stairway, so did Theo's and John's in the end too (this time permanently). This would make it so that The New Prince wouldn't get destroyed when the doll is plasmasized (New word! [I think]).

Now what comes to the old Trilby. I personally think it was the actualy real Trilby. His age was probably what makes me think so. None of the clones actually had time to age. And Trilby understood the paradox and made Somerset give his life to the TN-Trilby. Maybe Chzo caught him up on some 28.7. in his later life. He WAS the Guide anyhow. I think one of his "guiding" things was to guide the Caretaker do his job.



Okay, let's call those theories off now.


Useless rant, anyone?

-Now we get to the real thing: What does The Prince really "say" when he points at Theo? I'm sure it's something around: "Wtf man? I'm tall and handsome and that guy is freaking CRIPPELED!"

-I've always wondered how did old Cabbie get that cool The Prince -outfit. It clearly isn't uniform as Theo/John doesn't wear it. It looks a lot like some suit to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, but in ancient Britain there probably were no such suits.

-Those cultists of the Order of Blessed Agonies must've really given a hard time to the police in the end (when the news tell you that people are being interrogated). As Canning quite clearly put it, you can't torture them. They love it.

-Maybe it was just me, but could you ever actually get through the second door behind the computer room? That's where Frehorn's Blade was, yes? But still, I never passed through it.

-Canning... My mind might be clouded with a few false memories, but didn't LENKMANN have the exact same look on his face? A family business?

-I loved how Canning shoved Theo down the elevator shaft.

-Why didn't we get to fight the zombies of all the earlier people killed?

-Okay, memories don't get preserved in DNA, but clothes do?


And what about the game itself?

Okay. I do think the same as most, that the game wasn't THAT scary as the earlier games. But there was one thing that really got on my nerves: In Trilby's Notes I got incredibly freaked out every time I Reality Shifted. Now, on 6DAS page we can see a clearly "Evil" dimension picture. That got me into thinking: "Not reality shifting again!" As we all know, that didn't actually happen. But that did make it more nervewracking. I anticipated for half the game for the moment when I start spontaniously turning from world to world.
Otherwise the scaryness wasn't so high, as you pretty much knew there would be bad dreams, and the excessive amount of Trilbies made you feel a little more safe. I got freaked out a few times though.

Music. Brilliant. No more comments. I love you m0ds.

Story? Well to hell with it. Somehow I can imagine Yahtzee rolling on the floor laughing at us all. By no means will I trust him in this whole "the last game in the series"-thing. Screw you. The only game that didn't ACTUALLY leave any loose ends by itself was 5 Days, but I believe that was mostly because it was the first one. (Who plans to make a big serie of games or anything, if they don't know if anyone likes them?) This one I believe clearly leaves the most loose ends. Wich one was the real Trilby? How much money do they pay Theo? Does he get any insurances for wraiths and liches? Why were there no animals in the whole serie? Why does The Caretaker use magical teleportation skillz instead of just opening the bloody door? Even though Theo did it/saw it done many times, why couldn't he open the cell door when Canning was killed? Does Theo live through pain too, as he didn't eat a thing in the whole game? Is this enough of useless questions?

The gameplay itself was very basic, but that's a good thing. In the end, the puzzles weren't really that tough, but a few gave some brain teasing. And after a few of the puzzles you could bang your head in the wall and hate yourself a lot. "You only need to ask" goddamit. Now the no-dying thing was kinda lame I believe. One thing making 7 Days scary was the constant fear of death. In 6 Days you had quite a content feel of safety. At least some 5 Days style act-quick-or-die would've been nice.

The graphical side is in my opinion quite beautiful. Even though it isn't perfect realistic-looking super-graphical-ultra-thingy-wingy it's good. Somehow they just fit the serie perfect.



I don't think I have much anything else to rant about right now. Hope I didn't bore you to death too much. Light-writing never was my thing.

PS. I hate you for killing Trilby too many times, Yahtz.

[Ninja Duck]

To support that theory: You could walk into the mansion with all the Trilbies and have them killed of. If they really had all the memories of the original (even hidden) it should have set off as soon as the Trilbies entered the mansion, or one of them was killed off. However, they still just followed you around. Like lemmings.

Maybe the Trilbies remembered what had happened in the mansion but didn't say anything? Trilby was rather stoic throughout this series, and the Trilby in the lab did have a memory of killing Philip.

So maybe the memories Trilby had were so traumatic that they etched themselves into his DNA? I don't know. I really wonder how that Trilby in the lab knew about Philip, though. No one told him (Canning hadn't even seen him), and not even the original Trilby remembered killing Philip, really. My guess is that the same force that "drew" Trilby to the supply room where the other clone died is the same force that that gave him his memories. Maybe Redrobey McSomerset had something to do with it?

Are Philip and Samantha related? I thought one was Harty and the other was Harding. Is there any reason to believe that Somerset from the Unicorn and the Somerset family from the future are related?

[Don Andy]

Is there any reason to believe that Somerset from the Unicorn and the Somerset family from the future are related?

Yeah, the "grandmaster" himself said this in the commentaries of Trilby's Notes, so yes, I guess.

[Ninja Duck]

Yeah, the "grandmaster" himself said this in the commentaries of Trilby's Notes, so yes, I guess.

So it's all explained in the special editions, eh? The Somerset from the Unicorn looked too young to have children.

I can't figure out the significance of "purification" by the agonies. It seems to do different things for different people. Canning got purified and it made him calm and smug. That girl from the countdown got purified and it didn't do anything for her. Malcolm got purified (even though he was never a member of the cult, he tricked himself into killing his father, lived through 7DAS, then cut his throat out) and became a demigod. So here we have three very different reactions to a Chzo-style fitness program.

Was Theo ever purified? He put up with agony of the body and mind, but can we really say he had agony of the soul? It doesn't seem likely he knowingly led Janine to her death, and we all know he didn't love her.

[AdamM]

Of course Theo went through the agonies; Yahtzee has stuck too many clues around for us not to conclude that, and I'm not sure where you got the idea he didn't love Janine.

I played through the game again. It took me a second viewing of the "Trilby look at this picture of Samantha" scene to realise she was a descendant of Phillip.

[cactuscat222]

I may seem just stupid here...

But my question here is: Why does everyone think its either Theo or John or them combined who bacame the New Prince? I just thought Theo was the New Prince, for all he was wearing was John's clothing... He never had the idol(The Soul) or anything... Im probaly missing something, but I can't just seem to see how it might be John DeFoe. :/ I didn't think John took Theo over...