[The Scornful Roman]

I have an idea about this one.
Maybe the Jedi became such assholes so the "GREAT PROFICY"(yeah cant spell ><) was showing them they were gonna be brough down heh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"GREAT PROFICY"? No, honestly, I love it. Or maybe it's actually "Great PROFITS," eh? I think that says it all.

10) The death star not being designed and built by a bunch of scary British facist so much as by a bunch of grasshoppers.

That ticked me off too. In the EU novels, the first and second Death Stars were designed by one Bevel Lemelisk. I really think that they should have had him in there.

Hmm, maybe he was working with the aliens? [bitterness]Either way, a little nod to the EU novels would have been nice, and make it seem like Lucas didn't just authorize them completely for finacial reasons. [/bitterness]

[Despondent]

Luke's mom worked as a senator with the Emperor, Yoda trained Sith (Dooku)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well those are fresh points. Welcome to the forum.

10)  The death star not being designed and built by a bunch of scary British facist so much as by a bunch of grasshoppers.

And what kind of spacecraft do geonossians FLY, anyway? Or can they simply breathe in outer space? That would explain a lot. They build a core hive, construct the DS around it and leave access holes behind once they remove the hive core. Seriously. I saw it on Super shadow.

[CowboyCurtis]

Isn't he solar sailor, and those little ball & triangle ships Geonosian?

And SuperShadow said this? LOL!!! Oh, gawd, there is no end to the entertainment that "man" provides!

[Just your average movie goer]

Yes, he is a git.

However, on a positive note, I just read LSHB's post. Mate! Welcome to the forum! That was a truly excellent first post. You post some great new reasons and you have a true comic flair in writing them.

Perhaps you could collaborate with Chefelf on the next movie.

I loved the last point that the Death Star was not designed by scary British guys but a bunch of grasshoppers. That has to be one of the things that pisses me off the most about Episode II. It does my heart good to see that there are other people out there who also rate it high amongst their grievances.

[Despondent]

And what kind of spacecraft do geonossians FLY, anyway? Or can they simply breathe in outer space? That would explain a lot. They build a core hive, construct the DS around it and leave access holes behind once they remove the hive core. Seriously. I saw it on Super shadow.

And SuperShadow said this?  LOL!!!  Oh, gawd, there is no end to the entertainment that "man" provides!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I made it up. sowwy.

[xenduck]

id like to reply distinctly to Damobi.
i am delighted by your post, straight away my heart filled with joy to be compared with ol' GL himself; even if it was for being an ostentatious masturbator. i, for one, have never heard of supershadow.com but i assure you ill check up on it. i am deeply sorry for offending anyone, but i was offend by what struck me as childish nitpicking. such as posts that suggest the star wars experience was ruined by guys with mustaches or han's paycheck.

im gald you wouldnt hold it against me if i sneezed, however, EPI (which features jarjar stepping in crap) was certainly not anywhere near the climax of anakin's story. it seems to me that the role EPI plays in the arc of the saga is to demonstrate how much the world(s) changed with the rise of the empire. hints the term 'arc': two bases that rise at a distance and connect at the highth of the center.
im sorry if i dont understand you, what do you think the "heart beat" of the franchise is? is there no sub-context in the prequals? is George not a genius? i would like you to explain your point of view to me. i would hate to think i just spent four days in the rain and hundreds of dollars to hear about something " BAD IN EVERY GOD DAMNED WAY." (im talkin bout celebrationIII)
if we understand the "heart beat" to be diffrent things then i cant argue wether that heart beat resounds in the prequals for you, but only that i can hear the heart beat plainly when i stop and listen.
this post is longer than i intended it to be and im grateful to anyone who read it. so saying, may i suggest one more thing? instead of wondering how things could be diffrent, ask: why are things the way they are?

[xenduck]

this one is for LSHB. i have to admit your post really got me thinkn, i appreciate that. but i have a few counterpoints. if you dont mind.

1) excellent point! yet did you consider that they didnt have very many of them? indeed, why didnt everyone have them? (well, droidekas did) im going to assume that there is SOME reason for it, even if i have to make it up on my own... how about this, for starters. they're F*&^ing expensive, more so than, say dozens (or hundereds) of battle droids. maybe they cant be mass produced; maybe they are made by a small guild of sequestered gungans over a long period of time. and who said they were impenetrable? if they were, why the big sheild? it is logical to assume that matter can pass through them but not energy, just like the big one! thus they'd only be useful in a coordinated, large-scale, battle. if you didnt notice, EPI is the only film to have a ground battle that was not 'pitched' on the spur of the moment. i wont mention that i have never even considered swimming with drywall, but i have considered the fact that we never see a gungan swim with the sheild. they do have 'bongos', by the way, why would they carry their sheilds whilst submerged?

2) Uh, im sorry, i didnt realize you had a hard time telling a puppet from a real 'person'. i can almost always spot a puppet on the first try. id say CGI and puppets are about the same. arent digital characters a variety of puppets? ok, ok, anakin's fall makes even me bite my lip, but lets remember what we talked about earlier, movie making isnt perfect. didnt it bother you that han and leia could walk around inside a space slug with out body protection? kinda the same thing.

3) your making me squirm for an eplanation here. id say poor old kenobi is thinking of 'clone' troopers . he forgets that there are only farm boy conscripts on tatooine. sandpeople are a big enigma anyway; those few on the course are exceptional, i imagine they have been practicing that trick for years. at any rate, anakin probably killed those individuals in AOTC.

4) im not a fan of podracing, i promise i havent bought a video game that centralizes on such. what do you mean "Pod racing, robotic assembly line"?

5)silly me, i thought politics were an important part of war. thus an important part of star wars. i thought we were talking about 'empires' and 'rebellions' are these not politcal terms? there was no senate in the OT, for obvious reasons, but there was plenty of politics, these politics took place in war rooms and on stardestroyers because the empire is a militant regime. the story required senatorial machinations, fortunatly Lucas was gracious enough no to bore (you) anyone with clips of the voting booths. in this advanced civilization, voting is much more effecient than what we know of.

6)again with the bluescreen? how else, do you suppose, a story like this can be told? this is what i mean when i say 'childish nitpicking'. ILM is doing its best, problem is, audiences are sophisticating faster than technology.

7) shmi's grave disappearing is as mysterious as leia living on alderaan, or luke thinking his dad was a navigator. or obi-wan being called ben, who, from what owen told me, died about the same time as anakin.

8)twice is tons? falling is an accident. he didnt have time to activate his rockets, assuming he still has them. interestingly enough, in the EPI screen play, there is a bit where R2 falls off a landing pad, (during the midichlorian speech) the pad is high up, giving him time to fire his rockets.

9) ya, that annoys me too. especially anakin building 3P0, i hope George makes this relevant somehow. as for the others, it will suffice to say that it is logical that the
most powerful people in the galaxy would know each other.

10) again, im not sure where you got your information. the bug guy says something to the effect of, "we must not let them know what we are planning to build." i dont care who built the blasted thing, but there is NO clear evidence the bugs are solely, or even marginally, responsible for the death star.

OH BOY AM I HAVING FUN! seriously, i love these debates; please respond!

[xenduck]

ah geez, i have to say this.

It really bothers you (several people, apparently) who built the death star? bugs or brits, who cares?!!! you're saying the movie is bad becuase YOU think someone else should have built the death star, regardless of the fact we dont know, from the movies, who built/designed it. when bug guy says 'our plans' and 'what we are planning', it is possible he is refering to the seperatists as a whole, not his race. there are few lines in the movie on this subject, you assume too much.
furthermore, i enjoy the EU as much as the next guy, but i wont blame George if the books dont sync with HIS movies.

simple formula here: people want to read and write star wars books, George wants more money. and we can belive whatever we want about the DS construction. where's the problem?

ok, ill shut-up... for awhile.

[DragonLord]

Xenduck, the reason why people here usually don't respond to you is because you make it clear that you don't want to discuss, you just want to aggrevate people. Just reading your two previous posts shows this.
"silly me, i thought politics were an important part of war."

Therefor I'm not going to jump in the middle of a discussion with you, but I would like to ask a few qustions. Just a simple Yes or No will do.

1) Don't you find Jar Jar Binks to be incredibly annoying, and really has no place in a Star Wars movie?

2) Don't you find Darth Maul to be a great flaw in the movie, with the red/black face and the horns on his head?

3) Don't you find the introduction of midiclorians into Star Wars to be one of the most stupid ideas ever? Not the mention the fact that now "the force can be quantified by something found in someone's blood".

4) Don't you find the idea of Anakins virgin birth, or that he's been concieved of midichlorians, to be undeniably stupid?

5) Don't you find the fact that the fate of the entire galaxy was decided by one single person, (not the mention that that one person just happens to be Jar Jar Binks) to be
a major flaw in the movie?

6) Don't you find Anakin in AOTC to be unbelievably whiny and annoying? Not to mention just plain stupid: "I will be the most powerful Jedi ever!" "I should be all-powerful!" "I will decide when people are going to die."

7) Don't you find the so called "romance" between Anakin and Padme to be extremely poorly done?

8) Don't you find Samuel Jackson's lines in the movie, ("This party's over" for example) to be disturbing?

9) Don't you find Yoda's fighting scene with Doku to be a joke?

I know I have forgotten many major reasons but these will sufice. And please, I don't want a sarcastic explanation to why these reasons don't bother you or a comparison with any other movie (OT included). Just simply answer Yes or No to my 9 questions.

That actually goes for every PT gusher.

Awaiting answers / DragonLord

[xenduck]

im responding specifically to dragonlord, but my remarks are for anyone. in regards to the aformentioned line: i apologise for my poor attempts at humor, sometimes my sarcasm gets the better of me. the last thing i want to do is deter any discussions.
so ill jump right into the list of questions.

1)No
2)No
3)No
4)No
5)No
6)Yes
7)Yes
8)No
9)No

so there you have it. now, in the interest of fair play, i would like to ask a few questions of my own. please feel free to elaborate on your answers. all i really want to know is if my explanations for your (especially chefelf's and LSHB's) specific grievances are reasonable or not and why.

1)is there no subtext in the PT, no hint of what made the OT great?
2)can the epic story of anakin be told without the aid of CGI or bluescreens? are these reasons why EVERYONE SHOULD hate the PT or just a matter of taste?
3)is it possible that the lack of emotion is not a flaw in the script or the actors but rather the nature of the characters being portrayed? and if so, doesnt that demonstrate the skill of the actors and writers?
4)can anyone think of six movies with better continuity?
5)can we expect the PT to adhere to apophrical backstories from the EU?
6)Cant we trust that George Lucas knows the OT better than anyone and wants to do right?
7)isnt the exposition in the OT wildly open-ended and subject to inturpretation?
8)dont you think palpatine has a plan for everything? for example, without zam's bungling, obi-wan (who was asigned by palp) would never have found the clones(which palp wanted).
and that regardless if padme lived or not she still was away from the senate at a crucial point.
9)isnt the whole saga about corruption and redemption on a galactic scale? how could this theme be relevant if young anakin had not been a goodygoody?
10)dont you think jarjar is an ingenious contrast between the effects of fatalism and dumb-luck? (but yes, he is obnoxious.)

ultimatly, im actively trying to change people's minds here. i dont wanna piss off anyone. if no one here is remotely interested in seeing from a diffrent point of view then just say so and ill go far, far away...then my failure will be complete.

[DragonLord]

Thank you for your answers. I'll answer yours but I'm strictly speaking for myself here and a lot of people in this forum who dislike PT have other opinions no doubt.

1) No. Personally, the whole fantasy-bit is destroyed with the inclusion of midichlorians for one thing. "Luminous beeings are we, not this crude matter" "Size matters not. Look at me, judge me by my size do you?" With midichlorians we are nothing more than crude matter. Now size does matter. The size of your midichloriancount and the amount of blood in your body. Jeez....

Secondly OT was emotional, whereas in PT there is not a single relation that is emotional or interesting. The romance between Anakin and Padme sucks, we don't see any kind of friendship or rivalry between Obi-Wan and Anakin other than a few crazy outburst from Anakin.

2) I don't think people hate CGI or bluescreens, but the fact that this is what Lucas and friends have focused on in PT, rather than dialoge and character developement. Hell I just finished KOTOR and the characters in that game had more personality than anybody in PT. PT is all about actionscenes.

3) No, not at all. There is a lot of drama going on in the story, but you can't see a trace of emotion in the movies. For instance, Obi-Wan lost his master and friend Qui-Gon in the end of TPM. Ok, this is late in the movie, but still, Qui-Gon isn't even mentioned during his own funeral. I don't understand what you mean with "but rather the nature of the characters being portrayed". The nature of these characters are that they should lack emotions? During the entire AOTC I didn't see one reason at all why Padme should be in love with Anakin. At all. There was no chemistry, no romance, no nothing. If two people are supposed to be in love, they should show some kind of emotion, not a total absence of it. Do you see any kind of friendship between Anakin and Obi-Wan? No. "He's like a father to me" Say what?? "He's holding me back" Come again??

4) The answer is No, but that's because I can't think of 6 movies at all. If you would ask what I think about the continuity between PT and OT, I would say that it is terrible for reasons that others have discussed endlessly here.

5) I have no thoughts regarding this question, sorry. I don't know anything about the EU.

6) No. First of all, if I (and thousands of other people) can see continuity errors you can't just say: "Ah well, Lucas knows the OT better than I do, I'm sure he knows what he's doing". What the hell? I have seen OT and PT, I can see the errors myself! Secondly, how can he know OT since he keeps changing it all the time? The OOT is now very different from his new OT, and I'm sure he'll make even more changes in the future and alter the story altogether.

Obi Wan - "When I first met your father he was a whiny little podraced, and I didn't want him to be a jedi but I made a promise to my dying master Qui-Gon Jinn."
Luke - "How's Qui-Gon Jinn?"
Obi-Wan - "Oh dear. This might take a while..."

7) That depends on what you mean. Some things are stated as facts, and shouldn't be altered in the PT. "He was already the great pilot". No wait, he was a podracer. "There you will learn from Yoda, the jedimaster who instructed me". No wait, I was instructed by Qui-Gon Jinn, a jedi who is not even mentioned in the OT. etc etc

8) From what I understand he would rather have Padme killed and planned Darth Maul or Doku to kill Obi-Wan (and Yoda). But his plans don't need to work all the way through, since the everyone in the Jedi-counsell are portrayed as idiots. And if all it takes is a Jar Jar Binks to put Palpatine in power, then Palpatine didn't need a masterplan at all. But sure, he wanted a jedi to find the clones etc, I agree with that.

9) Sure Anakin has to be a goodguy at first, but he isn't. He is a freak.

10) I don't read anything into his character. He's just stupid and makes idiotic comments, that's all.

/ DragonLord

[xenduck]

thank you, Dragonlord for your answers. and so id like very much to continue our discussions. once again, i dont want to upset anyone, but only to offer a diffrent perspective by replying to your replies.

1) i think you are making a lot of assumptions. we only hear a tiny bit about midichlorians. on the whole, we know virtually nothing about how they operate. all we know is that anakin has over 20k which is more than yoda. but maybe yoda has 19999. and maybe qui-gon has 19998. midichlorians just tell you the will of the force, there is no mention of them determining your prowess. it is training and self-mastery that makes a jedi, not his midi count. now im going to make assumptions, the diffrence is my assumption validates both the OT and PT. the midis are just mediums through which the force speaks, nothing more. when the imperfect body dies, midis are no longer needed, becuase the luminous part becomes one with the force. so long as there is crude matter, there must be a physical way for the force to interact with the universe. for as many people who were content to leave the force to a mystical energy field there are as many who wanted to know how the force worked and why it was stronger in some families than others.

2) i see your point, i too would be fed up with the bluescreens if i felt there was no other redeeming features.

3)what i mean is, jedi and politicians are not given to fits of emotion, anakin is the exception. jedi are trained to keep cool at all times, to act rather than react. of course jedi dont gush about their feelings; niether do politicians. anakin's comments show his mixed feelings for his master, he is ambivilant, there is conflict within.

4)i think the continuity is as good as can be expected. its a difficult job and in order to make it work George has had to take a few liberties.

5)you dont need to know the EU to know if it should influence the movies. but i get what you mean.

6)fair enough, you're right about the amorphous quality of the OT he has created. i think it is amusing however that naysayers said he could never link the PT with the OT; so he just changed the OT. is it wrong for him to try and make his vision more perfect?

7)a podracer is a pilot. nevertheless, anakin did pilot a ship in the battle of naboo. did yoda never instruct obi-wan? of course he did, yoda instructs all the younglings, and obi-wan became a knight and a teacher in the same day, im sure he sought further guidance from yoda. and if you were a ghost apearing to a half froze boy fresh from a wompa cave would you take time to explain your whole sorted history? there are only two jedi mentioned in the OT. does that mean that obi-wan and yoda should be the only ones in the PT?

8)the council is not stupid, but grossly unprepared to face a sith master, they've gone soft in a thousand years, too sure of themselves; even the older, more experienced ones.

9)i am not a fan of jake loyd's acting, but i get the message he's trying to convey.

10)do you read into anything? you might be suprised.

please, please, let me know if you think my views are reasonable. thank you for your articualte responses, i look forward to an equally adroit reply to this post.

[Just another wretched fan]

you're views aren't reasonable

a) the OT did not need apologists.


midichlorians were totally unecessary and explained nothing, plus you're not leaving yourself open for all sorts of questions.

What happens if a Jedi gives a blood transfusion?

Can you now create Jedis with a midichlorian injection and training?

midichlorians were a useless addition to SW.

also....honestly...what do you think of Jar Jar's physically impossible dive into the water.

and the continuity is not as good as can be expected. Check out some of the threads about the bare minimum expectations of continuity. GL didn't even watch his own movies!

[Despondent]

6)fair enough, you're right about the amorphous quality of the OT he has created. i think it is amusing however that naysayers said he could never link the PT with the OT; so he just changed the OT. is it wrong for him to try and make his vision more perfect?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rather than force the square peg, Why couldn't Lucas simply proclaim "The two trilogies were always meant to have a distinctive look to each of them. It's as if the genealogist of Anikan sees the dark turn, fresh. Through the eyes of a time traveller..." [smiley of GL spouting of bs, sitting on toilet]

This post has been edited by Despondent: 27 April 2005 - 12:01 AM

[DragonLord]

In reply to xenduck

1) I don't think I'm making too many assumptions here. Qui-Gon is amazed about Anakin since he has a large midichloriancount. Regardless of how much Yoda or the other Jedis have, the important feature is that he has many midichlorians ---> the amount is obviously important ----> size matters, and we are nothing but crude matter.

Lets not forget Lucas' own remark about Anakin after he's injured in ROTS, that his midicount is not as high as before because he has lost parts of his body. Now he's weaker than before. I don't feel that a jedi's strenght in the force should decrease with each part of his body.

A jedi's strenght in the force should only have a relation to his mind. The mind is a powerful thing. It is what separates intelligent beings from the rest. Now matter how badly injured Anakin has become, he can still use his mind and should have the same abilities in the force.

3) I see your point, but I disagree that there should be a lack of emotion in the two most important relations in the PT. One is between Anakin and Padme. No matter how controlled a jedi is (and Anakin has no control at all obviously) or how icecold a politician is, when two people are in love they should show some kind of chemistry.

But more importantly, the relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin is what really disturbs me. Anakin will turn to the dark side soon, and he's been training under Obi-Wan his entire life since TPM. We should see some kind of friendship/rivalry between them. We know from his two lines in AOTC that he's hateful towards Obi-Wan, but we don't see any reason why. I know from spoilers that he's extremely hateful towards Obi-Wan, and there will be an emotional battle between them.

This is what many OT fans have been waiting for. Obi-Wan should fail in training Anakin, Anakin will turn, they will do battle and there should be some type of drama going on. Of course the final verdics has to come after we have seen ROTS, but even if they succeed with this in ROTS, I think they should have built on it in AOTC.

4) I disagree, the way Obi-Wan has portrayed Anakin and his relationship with him in OT is not even close to PT.

"When I first met your father he was already a great pilot "
No he was a podracer, but if you accept a podracer to be a pilot then that is your opinion. I don't. We wont get any further regarding this point.

"but I was amazed of how strong the force was with him"
No, he wasn't amazed at all. Obi-Wan didn't want the boy to be trained. "The boy is dangerous. They all sense that, why can't you" It was Qui-Gon who was amazed and wanted to train Anakin, defying the Jedi-counsel. In my opinion, Obi-Wan should have acted the way Qui-Gon did instead. That would justify this line in OT. Obi-Wan didn't want the boy to be trained, it was a granting wish to a dying Qui-Gon that virtually forced him to do so.

"I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda"
This, together with the line in ESB, shows that Yoda is the one who trained Obi-Wan. And I'm not talking about training a group of small children, I'm talking about the master-apprentice relation. Qui-Gon isn't even mentioned in OT. I'm sure he will once Lucas is done...

"Leia, do you remember you mother, your real mother?"
I'm not even gonna comment on this one.

6) "More perfect" is a powerful statement, one which assumes that what Lucas thinks is right and what other people think is wrong. I would say that many of the changes he has made in OT so far are bad. Like the new dialog between the Emperor and Vader in ESB. Now he suddenly doesn't know that Luke Skywalker, a person who's forcesensitivity Vader could feel in a starshipfight in ANH, could be Anakin Skywalkers son?

My point is this: if he changes the OT, so that the continuity errors between the PT and OT would disappear, then OT would become three completely different movies. They would not be OT anymore. He would have to change virtually every line between Luke and Obi-Wan, as well as that dialogue between Luke and Leia.

7) Read my points in 4) Granted, he should not have explained everything when Luke was freezing to death, the things he said in ROTJ don't mix with PT.

8) Granted they are too sure of themselves, but come on, letting Anakin continue to train even though he slaughtered sandpeople (men, women and children)? We should see the Jedi-counsel trying to help Anakin in some way. We don't see anything.

9) No further comment, I don't see Anakin as a good guy at all. We wont get any further in this point.

10) Yes I do, but I don't read anything into Jar Jar Binks' character. We wont get any further in this point.

/ DragonLord