[jariten]

Force lightning, damage taken, 70 hit points and maximum charisma.

Really, who gives a shit?

[xenduck]

let me start by saying i am really enjoying these debates. ive always been an anal-retentive over-analyzer, and ive always loved star wars. so it seems ive finally found my graceland.

ok, you're right, DragonLord, the sith do seem to hold their lightning in high regards. all im sayin is that the lightning is a basic ability, but the strength of the wielder determines the strength of the attack. i.e. luke cant lift an x-wing but yoda can.
on a side note: i think its funny that dooku says that he is more powerful than any jedi, even yoda; just like palpatine tells anakin that he will be more powerful than any jedi, even yoda. so you can really see how palpatine has been twisting them both with the same (false?) propoganda. sith always think they're stronger than jedi, but yoda tells us that the darkside is not stronger just 'quicker' 'easier' 'more seductive'; the lightning is a cheap trick best used against non force-wielders. the sith are just cocky and keep using it.

anyway, anyone interested in my counter arguments of chefelf's lists point for point?

[DragonLord]

Yes they do believe too much of themselves, I agree. But only strong Jedis seem to be able to counter it (Yoda for example). The others have to use lightsabres...

I think many of Chefelf's (minor) reasons can be countered (the way you did with some) but ultimately there are many huge flaws with the movies, that either bother you or don't depending on taste. So it's kind of hard to discuss them.

For myself I would like to say that I genuinly like OT. And it's not because I saw them when I was a child and loved them eversince or anything (I actually saw them much later than most people my age). I like them because they have depth. I like the scene where Yoda first meets Luke, when Yoda teaches about the mystical force (some of the best scenes in my opinion), when they try to stop him from leaving to face Vader, when Luke gets infuriated by Vaders talk about his sister turning to the dark side and attacks him, when Vader goes against his master because of his love for his son etc etc.. There is a lot of feeling in OT. For that, I can see past many flaws that OT has.

PT for me has no feeling. Nothing. There is not one single character or one single relation that shows any true value. And degrading the force to a midichlorianrate in ones blood completely killed anything mystical that was there from the beginning. If somebody's in to fancy lightsabreduels, specialeffects etc I can see how he can like PT. Otherwise I don't understand what there is to like. Maybe you should state some things you really like with PT?

[xenduck]

things i llike about PT...where to begin?... ok, you mentioned midichlorians. i wont say i like the idea of midichlorians, but i see the reasoning behined them. the only way the force could be hereditary ("the force is strong in my family.") is for it to be a part of physical biology. besides, how would jedi be discovered in the republic as babies without them? and, im going way out on a limb here, maybe it would be possible to rid the galaxy of jedi by killing off all the midichlorian carriers. if force-sensetive beings were being born all over the galaxy arbitrarily then the sith could never dream of destroying the jedi (good for-wielders), nor the jedi of defeating the sith (naughty force-weilders). without midichlorians anyone could learn to use the force. you'd have force-wielders running rampant all over the place. further more, (im still on a limb) midichlorians in the body explain why anakin probably lost a lot of power after having his body mangled. in the end, there is much that is unexplained about midichlorians, there are only a few obscure references in epI. i have to reserve judgment on them until george elucidates their role in force-sensetivity. you're right (/DL) about it being a matter of taste; i, for one, prefer science to mysticism. (if you can call midis scientific).

i also like yoda's fighting, dooku as a character, anakin as a kid, the AOTC title, and MOST of the dialouge. i also like the plethora of themes lucas explores throughout the whole saga. which would you (everyone) like to hear me pontificate about. THIS IS MY HOBBY, hehe...starwarsology!

[xenduck]

/DL, uh, may i call you DL? you raise an interesting point about the lack of emotion in the PT. lets not forget though that there is a lot of drama going on. like anakin and his mother. obi-wan and anakin, obi-wan losing qui-gon, padme and anakin in love. anakin and palpatine conspiring. yet somehow these relationships are not as stirring as those in the OT... hmmm, well, it might help to realize that the principle players in the PT are jedi, clones, droids, and politicians; none of which are renowned for their emotions. but lack of emotion in the story does not imply there is no depth. all the bottled-up emotions of the PT are the catalysts for the rousing conflicts in the OT. for me, the OT is more emotional now that i know the characters' pasts; and the PT is already emotional because i know the characters' futures.

[jariten]

The main draw for me with the prequels is the plotting. The films are so dense and ambitious in this regard, with multiple narrative strands all reflecting, and playing off one another.

This was one of my favoutire scenes in TPM

(talking about Anakins midi count)

Obi Wan- What does that mean?

Qui Gonn- I'm not sure...

cut to Shimi looking troubled, then cut to a shot of darth mauls ship. Mauls story is unconnected to Anakins, yet Lucas uses it to add to the feeling of unease that had been created around Anakin in the preceeding scene.


Its the skill with which Lucas brings all these plot strands together into a tight, coherant whole that I personally like. I honestly think these films have been put together with more intelligence than a lot of people realise (or are willing to admit to).

Or on a more basic level, just go watch whatever tedious copy of 'van helsing' or whatever is playing now. Most filmakers of action/adventure movies dont have half of the imagination that Lucas has.

And I like the characters! The determined queen, the rebellious youth, the stern (but warm inside) teacher etc.

[JW Wells]

I just watched this movie "Luther" which was about Martin Luther, the first Christian to start a church apart from Catholicism. 

After Luther starts insulting and denigrating the Catholic church, his audience is so inspired that they start burning churches, killing priests, raping nuns....they just take all of Luther's ideas to their most extreme ends.  All sorts of copycat "Little Luther's" pop up and try to exploit Luther's popularity and they ignite mob rule and lawlessness.  Luther looks at these towns smoldering and burnt down and he's like, "What have I wrought?"

That might me the same response Chef Elf has when he reads posts like Dragon Lord's.  "I never intended for this....."

(Or maybe it's just best to take the "Any attention is good attention" attitude.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If so, I look forward to Chefelf's equivalent of Luther's tract Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants.

"Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Nitpickers"? I'd read that. . . .

This post has been edited by JW Wells: 22 March 2005 - 12:01 PM

[Signum_Absentis]

Hello, I've just discovered your 1001 reasons to Hate Star Wars and its great!

Well, granted its only a couple hundred, but certainly there is room for more isn't there?

Anyway, with the new movie coming out and all, it should be interesting to see how many end up on the list after that...

I have one or two extras:

(Maybe somebody has mentioned these, but oh-well.)

-Why the hell is Yoda behaving like a selfish crazed lunatic, or "bag-lady" type of person when Luke meets him? Am I supposed to believe he's trying to hide his indentity? Why can't he just read Luke's mind, or...shouldn't he have known luke was coming or some such thing? It just seems rediculous that this wise old Jedi is behaving like an idiot, Kenobi didn't behave this way when Luke met him.

-Is that really Scott Bakula in Empire Strikes Back dressed up as an imperial officer, with a really bad british accent? Its somewhere around the asteroid field scenes, he shouts out something, I can't remember what it is.
I checked, he's not listed in the credits.

-In the ESB Special Editions, theres a scene that seems inserted for no reason, a quick shot of a bunch of rebels on Hoth cheering outside in the snow, this shot shows this guy with a big old mustache, he looks like some biker dude and doesn't fit in with the rest of the people, this shot looks totally rediculous, was this shot in the originals(I cannot remember, it struck me as being "new" and completely pointless, as it is inserted nowhere near any other cheering scenes or following or leading in to anything that would make sense to have it there.)

-I also noticed that Lucas re-did the "english" words into Star Wars language format(alien) on the tractor beam, etc, but deciced not to change any numbers, how stupid is that?

-There are plenty of shots in A New Hope that are not enhanced, during the 'dogfight' scene in the falcon, there are plenty of visible shots of Tie-Fighters with the 'black boxes' around them, AND after going through all the trouble to 'correct' special effects, I STILL WANT TO KNOW WHAT THAT BLACK THING IS ON THE EMPEROR'S HEAD! You know, the black thing that hovers next to his eye? What the hell is that, why is it there, why is it STILL THERE? it looks like it was put there because it moves, but if its a flaw in the film, why is it still there?

[Just another wretched fan]

-Why the hell is Yoda behaving like a selfish crazed lunatic, or "bag-lady" type of person when Luke meets him? Am I supposed to believe he's trying to hide his indentity? Why can't he just read Luke's mind, or...shouldn't he have known luke was coming or some such thing? It just seems rediculous that this wise old Jedi is behaving like an idiot, Kenobi didn't behave this way when Luke met him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yoda is playing a character to test Luke. Luke fails because he is short fused / impatient / impolite. He uses it to teach Luke a lesson. A real Jedi would show respect to the most annoying form of life. Qui-Gon took that idea a little too far, embracing jar jar instead of euthanizing him immediately.

[DragonLord]

Yeah there is a limit to how much you can stand... Jar jar should be slain, even by the Jedi

I like that scene in ESB. He tests Luke's patience and Luke fails quickly. I like it when he turns around and says: "I cannot teach him. The boy has no patience" and then you hear Obi-wan: "He will learn patience" and at the same time you hear the "force-theme". Beautiful screenplay =)

[Despondent]

I have to do my taxes now. I've been meaning to pop in the vintage ESB for weeks, now's as good a time as any.

Reason to hate Star Wars: Ep 1?
Number two, the (greedy) Trade Federation.

[xenduck]

dear friends, may i offer a simple caveat; with a freudian twist?
sometimes a movie is just a movie. movies are a form of storytelling, storytelling is a human endeavor, people make mistakes. no movie is without bloopers or oddities, granted, some more than others. but when the viewer accepts the limits of movies as a medium, they can let most errors slide. especially when a movie is as ambitious as star wars. after all, do you hate this message because of my grammatical eccentricities? or (if at all) becuase of the content of its message? if i am verbally telling you a story and happen to sneeze, will you include that in a list of reasons to hate my story?
there is more to a story than how it is told. there are characters, conflict, comedy, plot and drama. in these arenas, star wars isnt 'just' a movie. it has excellence in its amalgamation of human history, philosophy, religion and emotion. even though moviemaking does have its quarks, all these themes combine in star wars to make it an extraordinary film. it's the intricate and ingenious story that makes star wars the latest (if not best) incarnation of the existential dilemma.

[Darth Deathius]

Reason #8
Jedispeak
"We're trying to protect you, not start an investigation." Why are Jedi always talking like this? Jedi have gone from being just about the coolest thing I can imagine to being know-it-all jerks. Everything anyone says in presence of a Jedi they must be cautious of. If you say anything around a Jedi they'll just change it around. "Master Yoda, we're out of Pop Tarts." "Oooh? So certain are you? Always the Pop Tarts can not be found." "But I looked in the cupboard and it's empty." "Empty the cupboard is not. Absent of food it is. As 'empty' the same it is not."

I have an idea about this one.
Maybe the Jedi became such assholes so the "GREAT PROFICY"(yeah cant spell ><) was showing them they were gonna be brough down heh

Great site. You covered everything about episode 1 and more I was like WTF about lol
and Darth Plagueius.....My board name was set

[Damobi]

Xenduck, you are a pretentious wanker just like Lucas - assuming your post was in defense of the prequels as films, which I assume it was. Your post is reflective of the same bullshit that George himself posts at Supershadow.com in defense of his 'great' work.

Of course the original trilogy are not flawless. We, the fans openly acknowledge that. If anything, the majority of flaws serve only to enhance the experience as a result of our steadfast loyalty and love of the series.

Naturally, there are countless components that make up a good film. Everyone knows that. I personally was somewhat offended that you thought you even had to explain that fact.

if i am verbally telling you a story and happen to sneeze, will you include that in a list of reasons to hate my story?

Of course not. But say for example you were telling a story called Star Wars - a cult film with an emotional, philosophical, religious, historical etc. sub-context. You are approaching the climax and trying to create atmosphere. Your protagonist, Anakin Skywalker is about to fall to the dark side. . .

and then you have Jar Jar Binks step in crap and say, "Isa have a badden feeling about this."

That's the reason that the prequels have nearly destroyed the heart beat of the franchise. GL is a pretentious prat with too much money. He has lived a life where everyone has told him that he is a genius - and with the financial backing to stoke the fires of his emblazed ego, who can blame him?

But when ppl cant even watch a film because of the utter PAIN it inflicts upon its viewers...

It's like Jesus' second coming... We've read the Bible endlessly... But the sequel is so god damned shit and pretentious.... So unexcuseably apalling... so... so... BAD IN EVERY GOD DAMNED WAY.... There would be no excusing God.

He made the world and captured our imaginations.... Then he destroyed it just as quickly as the Death Star.

His overconfidence is his weakness.

[LSHB]

Here are some other reasons I can't stand The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones. There are many, many more.

1) Gungan shields. The Gungans have impenetrable hand-held energy shields. Wouldn't these be useful for, say, EVERYONE else? Shouldn't every stormtrooper or clonetrooper have one of these things? How about the Jedi? Pretty handy if you're, say, trapped in a big arena surrounded by droids for some reason. I'll avoid the follow-up point that it makes no sense for the Gungans to have these in the first place because they'd be impossible to manage underwater (try swimming with a sheet of drywall and you'll see what I mean).

2) The computer effects are almost always worse than the puppets and models they replace. The human eye detects lame CGI work with stunning accuracy, and given that the prequel films are about 99% bluescreen it's impossible to suspend disbelief. Here's a classic: Anakin falls off the speeding bluescreened speeder on Coruscant as it crashes. It is doing about 150 mph. Suddenly he hits the soundstage ground and rolls, miraculously doing only about 10 mph, and crashes into a bunch of clearly empty boxes. Then he gets up and feigns a rib injury. What is this, the Dukes of Hazard?

3) The Jawa sandcrawler blast points in A New Hope are "too accurate for Sandpeople." Yet in The Phantom Menace, sandpeople can plug speeding podracers from 500 yards away.

4) Video game sequences inserted into the film for the obvious purpose of sending people right to Toys R Us afterwards: Pod racing, robotic assembly line.

5) In the incredibly lame and overly cutesy Senate (gee, ETs..that's brilliant), everything happens without an actual vote. It's ridiculous. If you're going to be insane enough to focus large portions of screen time to Star Wars CSPAN, at least have the senators actually vote on Padme's and Jar Jar's various resolutions, instead of them just happening the moment afterwards.

6) More bad and unnecessary bluescreen: The cut-rate bounty hunter running around the corner and ducking into the Chili's on Coruscant while chased by Anakin and Obi-Wan; everything involving Yoda and/or Jar Jar, all the creatures in the arena on Geonosis, which obviously was just a big sound stage where the actors had to fight off imaginary clumps of CGI, and the scene where Anakin loses his CGI hand to what is obviously Dooku's stunt double.

7) Shmi's grave somehow disappearing from behind Luke's house.

8) R2D2 flying, when there are tons of places in the older films where he would have done the same (falling in the swamp on Dagobah and getting eaten; falling off of Jabba's sail barge).

9) One degree of separation between all characters: Anakin built C3PO, the storm troopers are Boba Fetts, Luke's mom worked as a senator with the Emperor, Yoda trained Sith (Dooku), etc.

10) The death star not being designed and built by a bunch of scary British facist so much as by a bunch of grasshoppers.