[jariten]

I wrote a long, boring cut and paste thing arguing against all your points but it just seemed so stupid and pointless that I deleted it. Please, please, watch these films again. None of what you posted stands up.

Anyway, welcome to the boards. I'm off.

[DragonLord]

Thanks
Too bad you deleted it, cause I would like to see anybody try to oppose the things I wrote. They are unopposable.
And I wont see the movies again if I don't get paid or something

Peace / DragonLord

[Just another wretched fan]

In AOTC, when Anakin and Padme are having dinner, Padme says something like "are you going to read my mind", to which Anakin responds "that only works on the weak minded". Excuse me? Vader reads Lukes mind in ROTJ about having a sister, the Emperor reads Vaders mind when he says "and now I sense you wish to continue your search for young Skywalker" or something like that. Are Luke and Vader weakminded?
Lifeforms that are skilled in the jedi-arts can mindcontrol only weak lifeforms, but they can read the minds of stronger foes. The line is totally wrong.

/ DragonLord

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

not that i want to stick up for the pT

but anakin could just not fully understand the power of the force, yet.

[srmoore]

Well.. just 2 cents here.. but sensing that Vader wanted to look for Luke again.. well... that isn't mind reading.. that was just like.. a feeling.. It was sort of obvious..

And luke.. well.. yeah he was weak minded.. and whiney. hehe

[jariten]

Ok, quickly then.

1. Watto did not know that Qui Gon was a Jedi. The line was "what, you think you're some kind of Jedi, waving your hand around like that?"

2. Powerful sith can use lightning, a fact so simple i'm surprised you brought it up. Dooku is more powerful than Maul, but not as powerful as Palpatine (witnessed in the trailer, as Palps lightning knocks Yoda back. In AotC, Yoda was easily able to block Dookus lightning). So, no, I doubt that an untrained Jedi (Luke) would be able to stop the lightning of an extremelly powerful sith lord.

3. Anakins "weak minded" line was just banter, a thinly disguised compliment. Again, this is pretty obvious. It feels like you're grasping at straws for errors.

[DragonLord]

1. I know the line that Watto said, but if he didn't believe that Qui-gon was a jedi, why did he go on to explain that "I'm a Toydarian. Mind tricks don't work on me, only money." Even if he didn't know, he should at least suspect it. I agree that this is a minor flaw, but it is a flaw nonetheless.

2. So powerful Siths can use lightning. I see. Then we should suspect Anakin to be able to do that too after he's turned evil, since he is the chosen one and has a 20000 midichlorian rate, more than Yoda etc. I don't think in his battle with Obi-Wan we will see him use lightningforce. This is just inconsistent with being "the chosen one".

First of all, I agree that the Emperor can use the lightningforce ability more forcefully than Doku. It wasn't too easy for Yoda to block Doku's second lightning though, it took some time to absorb it. But did you see when Obi-Wan blocked it with his lightsaber? Now THAT was easy. It didn't take any sort of skill at all, just lift up the lightsaber and all is well. Are you saying that Doku's lightning is so weak, that a lightsaber can block it, but the Emperors is so strong that it can't? That doesn't sound right. Why can a simple technological device as a lightsaber block the power of the dark side at all? It is inconsistant. It doesn't seem right that a powerful Sith Lord, more powerful than Darth Maul who can duel two Jedis at the same time, can't get anywhere with his ability because of a simple lightsaber. Imagine training hard, learning true the power of the force, only to have ones lightning blocked by a simple device.

Luke wasn't untrained. Yoda said it himself: "No more training do you require. Allready know you..." etc. I guess a long duel with Vader teaches you a lot of things. So yes, in my opinion this shows that he can block the lightning with a lightsaber.

Maybe in Episode III we will se some kind of explanation for this, although I doubt it.

3. Another minor flaw, I agree, but there is still something wrong with a jedi-apprentice saying something totally wrong just to impress a woman. You can argue that the line is just a compliment, but it is nonetheless untrue. (srmoore, to say that Luke is weakminded also goes against the entire story. Luke is the son of Anakin, the chosen one. I wont even debate about his abilities..)

/ DragonLord

[jariten]

This level of nitpicking goes beyond pointless. How can you enjoy any films you watch? Vader cant use force lightning because he had no hands. there you go. Or maybe he can use it, but he decides not too. You're only letting this stuff mar your enjoyment of the films because you dont want to enjoy them. Take this level of anaysis to the OT and this is what you're left with- NOTHING. Sneeze on the OT and it falls apart. But of course they've been canonised as untouchable classics etc. etc.

[DragonLord]

You don't seem to understand what I mean.
I said ANAKIN should be able to use it when he turns evil, not after he's seriously wounded. Please pay attention to what I write before you reply, or don't reply at all. If Anakin is the chosen one, he should be much more powerful than Doku and use lightningforce, and I'm sure he wont. If he would, Obi-Wan would be no match for him. We'll see what happens in Episode III.

You think this is a low level of nitpicking? Suddenly Doku comes along and can do almost the same thing as the emperor? The power of the dark side can be blocked with a simple lightsaber? I don't think so... I find these to be serious flaws. You don't obviously, then so be it.

As always when I discuss these movies with someone they answer the same way you do: "You don't want to enjoy them". Say what? Of course I want to enjoy them, but it's hard when I think they're terrible. I really like OT and I wished the PT was good also, but PT sucks.

Every movie has flaws but I can enjoy them if the movie is good overall, or if there are a few parts I like a lot. As an example, I can watch and appreciate The Last Samurai because I'm in to japanese culture, even though that movie has many many many serious flaws in it. Even if I don't care much for an amercian to become a samurai and be the only survivor of the last war (to in fact become the LAST living samurai ) etc etc I like to watch the first half when he tells us about the samurai culture. I still don't think the movie is so good, but I can enjoy it nonetheless.

I actually watched ESB today with a friend! I like the movie, even though it has flaws in it too. A scen here, a dialoge there.. That doesn't matter much to me. Overall it is a good movie.

But when a movie has so many seeeerious flaws, like midichlorians, Yoda the hedgehog, Anakin the baby, Mace the "this party's over", then you aren't left with anything at all..

Good day / DragonLord

[DBrennan3333]

I just watched this movie "Luther" which was about Martin Luther, the first Christian to start a church apart from Catholicism.

After Luther starts insulting and denigrating the Catholic church, his audience is so inspired that they start burning churches, killing priests, raping nuns....they just take all of Luther's ideas to their most extreme ends. All sorts of copycat "Little Luther's" pop up and try to exploit Luther's popularity and they ignite mob rule and lawlessness. Luther looks at these towns smoldering and burnt down and he's like, "What have I wrought?"

That might me the same response Chef Elf has when he reads posts like Dragon Lord's. "I never intended for this....."

(Or maybe it's just best to take the "Any attention is good attention" attitude.)

[jariten]

When you start complaining loudly about the semantics of two lines of dialogue in a 2 and a half hour film and say that this ruins the experience for you then yes, i'm going to say that you didnt want to enjoy this film. That was foremost in your mind. After that, all else followed. Thats just my take on you from 3 or so posts of course.

Take this stuff about the lightning. All your facts are wrong (for a start). Dooku was being trained by Sidious for years! and you want Anakin to be able to use this ability immediantly even though he wont even go fully darkside until (presumably) the end of the next film? and you really consider this an inconsistancy in the plot? Read my first paragraph again, if you like.

I'm in to japanese culture

Well at least we've got one thing in common

[DragonLord]

Jaritan, when the hell did I say that 'these' 2 lines ruin the entire experience for me??

That wasn't even close to what I said. I didn't say this 'these' ruin the film, I just said they were additional reasons. The more important reasons why these movies suck are mentioned by everybody (again, Yoda the hedgehog, Jar jar and midichlorians just to name a few)

Besides, facts all wrong? Not quite. Ok, so Doku has been training for years and that is why he has mastered lightningforce. I'll grant you that one. Beautiful. That wont help much because he's still going to lose a lightsaber duel against Anakin. I bet anything he'll say: "It seems I wont win this battle with my superior knowledge of the force, but I'll lose because of your superior skills with a lightsaber". Just explain to me what the point is to have lightningpower if a simple lightsaber can block it? It is as simple as that.

And DBrennan, I could think of a lot of bigger flaws in the movies than some of Chefelfs reasons. Do you really think that using a chancecube with 6 sides instead of a coin or that QuiGon says something like "there's always a bigger fish" is more important than showing how futile the power of the dark side is against a simple piece of technology?

Good day / DragonLord

[jariten]

I really didnt mean for this to spiral out of control but i'm a sucker for stuff like this.

Just explain to me what the point is to have lightningpower if a simple lightsaber can block it? It is as simple as that.

!!! How many millions and millions of people in the universe arnt Jedi, and so are open to being hurt, threatened etc. by the big nasty lightning weilding sith? Come on, this is weak. Your comment was as logical as-
Whats the point of a lightsabre if another lightsabre can block it?
Whats the point of a blaster if it can be blocked by a lightsabre?

Anyway, this topic is starting to feel a bit theforce.net-ish, so what do you say to a change of topic?

[DragonLord]

Well since the Jedi are the Sith-Lords' enemies, then the lightningpower doesn't seem to empower them at all.

Doku has been training for years you say. He can use lightningforce. Will that help him against Anakin? No.

Let me just put it this way: it annoys me that the power of the dark side, a powerful Sith Lord using his lightningforce, is futile against a simple lightsaber. You have to agree with me on that one. The whole point of being a powerful Sith Lord / Jedi Master is to be beyond lightsabre duels.

But we can set this aside if that is what you want. Fine

/ DragonLord

[xenduck]

DragonLord, I have a problem with your posts. The first of which being that the line you refer to between anakin and padme is not about mind reading, its about mind tricks. So your entire argument is ridiculous.

And there is nothing to suggest that watto knows what a jedi can do. He knows about mind tricks because he is a toydarion. And im pretty sure watto was trying to cheat with the chance cube, like weighted dice. He underestimated Qui-gon, wether he knew what a jedi could do or not, and he lost because of it. Even toydarions make mistakes.


and here are my thoughts of force lightning. It seems to me that force lightning is a weak attack. Its quick, its flashy, its purely offensive; therefore, indicative of the darkside. Maul may or may not have been able to use force lightning, I cant say because we don’t see it in the movies. But if lightning can be blocked by a lightsaber (introduced by T. Zahn, I believe) it makes sense that he wouldn’t try it against the jedi. Dooku, on the other hand, is showing off and posturing when he uses it against anakin. If you’ll notice, its not the lightning that stuns anakin, but rather being force thrown against the wall. The emperor uses lightning only after luke has conveniently tossed aside his lightsaber, and does seem to take quiet a bit of energy to actually kill with. As far as vader, well, lucas has said himself that he can’t use lightning because of his mechanical componets. We all saw the effect the emperor’s lightning had on him.
I imagine that the jedi have many that were made moot by the invention of lightsabers, oh so long ago.

As for dooku drawing yoda into a lightsaber duel, well, thats a little candy for the audience, but its possible dooku was hoping yoda had let his lightsaber training slip. Or maybe dooku just got his bran new red lightsaber and wanted to use it some more. Or maybe dooku knew yoda was stronger in the force than he and didnt want to fight him that way. Remember, we can’t trust what dooku says; he’s a dark jedi.

my point is, that I don’t think force lightning is a sign of a powerful sith, but a hallmark of the darkside that has a few, limited, applications. You’re making a lot of asumptions; no one flat out says, ‘hey, that guy must be a dark lord, he can use force lightning!’ force lightning must not be uncommon if yoda and obi wan can deal with it so easily; I bet young padawans tinker with it all the time.

[DragonLord]

I'll let the first two slip (I haven't seen the movies for years so you might be right) but I think your third point is ridiculous. Doku and Yoda start their force-duel with Doku tossing large rocks at him. When that fails, he brings on the heavy artillery (and you can see the surprised look on his face when the forcelightning isn't enough to harm Yoda) When Yoda remarks on him becoming powerful Doku says: "I've become more powerful than any Jedi. Even you" before he starts with his lightningforce. In ROTJ, the emperor says: "your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side" while he's hurting Luke with his lightningforce. If these two comments don't show that forcelightning is a powerful Sith ability, then I don't know what does.

/ DragonLord