[J m HofMarN]

Yes. Many did so. There ate like 30 anti castro terrorist organizations active in Florida. All aided and abetted by the US government.

And exactly how many women and children did Castro execute, or are you just popping this matter up in a desperate attempt to gain sympathy?

[Cobnat]

They took to the hills not to effect change, but to keep from being brought to justice (theres a reason they were equipped for war: many of the people in the sierras were former Batista militants or political gang members of his party) Some of them legitimately wanted to re-install a capitalist puppet government, but most were just interested in saving their own skins.

So they wanted to save their own skins by STAYING IN CUBA RATHER THEN LEAVING WITH BATISTA? OK THEN.

And their defeat was just because Socialism won out, obviously.

Not for long, obviously.

Look it up, Raul Castro has thus far allowed cell phones and dvd players and such to be sold to all Cubans, and opened up facilities formerly only available to foreign tourists to all Cubans. And I do hope he hasnt freed any traitors to the Revolution. The fewer of them are on the street the fewer agents for Bush to use.

People who protest poor work conditions are traitors of the revolution (despite most of them never having committed themselves to the revolution in the first place, we can assume that every Cuban is a member of the revolution whether they want to be or not)!

Because they're poor? The idea of government control of land is to keep the rich from having too much. If they gave it away at this stage in the transition to Communism then it would concievably degrade right back to capitalism with a new class of land barons cropping up.

So the people are poor. So the government pays the people. So the government is at fault for the people being poor. Perhaps if they allowed farmers to set their own prices and have their own land, they wouldnt be poor.

Shove your worker exploitation up your ass. Suddenly you're so sympathetic for the workers, but you couldnt give a damn about union busting in countries that have been practically run by United Fruit, could you? You have never once mentioned that UF (the same company that owned a good chunk of Cuba) massacred workers in Venezuela for trying to unionize. You've never had a problem that when Arbenz took over in Guatemala to bring rights to its workers the UF company had Allen Foster Dulles organize a coup and install a military dictatorship. But now, because Fidel doesnt pay the workers enough to become landlords, now, you are the great champion of the rights of the proletariat? Your feigned compassion makes me want to wretch.

Well the Cuban workers arent allowed to protest at all becouse they would be regarded as traitors and imprisoned or worse. Like I said, no difference. Castro and his cronies are the ones living in palaces and driving around in luxury cars while the workers have to scrounge what they can. Like I said, no difference.

Might I add: Shove your totalitarian apologist propaganda up your ass.

And since no one is starving to death it is concievable that they are getting enough money to make ends meet. And the scarcity of food is due to the embargo, not to Castro being evil and hording it all for himself.

How do you know that no one is starving when the people arent allowed to broadcast their plight?

Oh yes, because before when there were no rights for them and people really DID starve to death inbetween the cane cutting season, they had it much better then. And it isnt just the honor of the leaders. It is national honor that is at stake. You wouldnt allow anyone to force a government on your country, or to tell you to release traitors from your prisons, yet you expect this from Cuba? Why? Are they less deserving of self determination? That seems to be your basis, that because they chose the "wrong" government they are not fit to choose their own path and must be returned to the warm and secure embrace of colonialism.

So when USAmerica starts locking people up for being "traitors" (when the WAR ON TERROR comes into full swing) I can assume you will be at the forefront of the mob, spitting in the faces of those "traitors" and demanding their lynching?

[J m HofMarN]

So they wanted to save their own skins by STAYING IN CUBA RATHER THEN LEAVING WITH BATISTA? OK THEN.

You see the problem is that unlike Batista, not everyone had a private air plane.

Not for long, obviously.

In the face of 50 years of hostility, an invasion, billions spent on destroying Cuba, I'd say the revolution has proved quite survivable.

People who protest poor work conditions are traitors of the revolution

Actually I believe all workers belong to unions in Cuba, the revolution was made for the workers, not against them.

So the people are poor. So the government pays the people. So the government is at fault for the people being poor. Perhaps if they allowed farmers to set their own prices and have their own land, they wouldnt be poor.

perhaps if there wasnt an embargo and pressure to allow privatization they would not be poor and would allow privatization.

How do you know that no one is starving when the people arent allowed to broadcast their plight?

Because state rationing ensures a bare minimum of food for everyone.

So when USAmerica starts locking people up for being "traitors" (when the WAR ON TERROR comes into full swing) I can assume you will be at the forefront of the mob, spitting in the faces of those "traitors" and demanding their lynching?

The US isnt a socialist country, it is in fact the greatest purveyor of imperialist violence in the world. Your analogy falls flat.

[Cobnat]

You see the problem is that unlike Batista, not everyone had a private air plane.

They had guns. People had boats. If they were as half as evil as you make them sound then why didnt they kill the people with boats and escaped? How did the other exiles escape?

In the face of 50 years of hostility, an invasion, billions spent on destroying Cuba, I'd say the revolution has proved quite survivable.

So you judge a successful revolution on how long the revolutionaries manage to hold onto power. I guess it doesnt matter how many

Actually I believe all workers belong to unions in Cuba, the revolution was made for the workers, not against them.

So thats why workers in Cuba are payed nothing, have no land, live in appalling conditions and some are reduced to prostituting themselves to survive.

perhaps if there wasnt an embargo and pressure to allow privatization they would not be poor and would allow privatization.

Perhaps if the communist aristocrats were more interested in making Cuba selfsufficient instead of depending on money and goods from the Soviets so that they may live in luxury, the Cuban people wouldnt be in such a predicament and the USAmerican embargo wouldnt have such an effect.

Lets face it, Cuba was in the shits even when it was receiving tremendous amounts of money and supplies from the Soviets.

Because state rationing ensures a bare minimum of food for everyone.

So while the Cuban people have to ration their food, the communist aristocrats hold banquets.

The US isnt a socialist country,

My mistake, I guess everyone in a country that guarantees free speech is allowed to protest while the rest of the world has to keep quiet about their suffering.

it is in fact the greatest purveyor of imperialist violence in the world.

Cuba sent soldiers to Angola on an official level and soldiers to dozens of countries in South America and Africa on an unofficial level.

Your analogy falls flat.

Not really. Would you support your government if there were fucking you? If you answered no then why do you expect the Cuban people to support the communist aristocrats in Cuba?

[z e w b]

Support Communism! You can feel like a revolutionary without actually doing anything!

[J m HofMarN]

They had guns. People had boats. If they were as half as evil as you make them sound then why didnt they kill the people with boats and escaped? How did the other exiles escape?

Because some of the reactionaries were further inland, you know, in the sierras and stuff where they ended up taking up arms?

So you judge a successful revolution on how long the revolutionaries manage to hold onto power.

Very funny, but no. The question was one of the revolutions survivability. Not of its success.

So thats why workers in Cuba are payed nothing, have no land, live in appalling conditions and some are reduced to prostituting themselves to survive.

Workers in most third world countries are paid nothing, dont have guaranteed rations, and have no access to healthcare or education. And your continuing exagerations are laughable. Honestly, "people have to resort to prostitution to survive" sounds like a line right out of some zany Christian Cuban website. Here's a hint. People resort to prostitution everywhere. That's why there are prostitutes.

Perhaps if the communist aristocrats were more interested in making Cuba selfsufficient instead of depending on money and goods from the Soviets so that they may live in luxury, the Cuban people wouldnt be in such a predicament and the USAmerican embargo wouldnt have such an effect.

What in the devil are you suggesting? That Cuba should have stopped taking Soviet aid to lessen the effects of the American embargo? If so your supposition is patently false and, moreover, insane.

So while the Cuban people have to ration their food, the communist aristocrats hold banquets.

The rulers of countries always hold banquets. And the rationing is to ensure that everyone gets enough, not due to a major shortage.

My mistake, I guess everyone in a country that guarantees free speech is allowed to protest while the rest of the world has to keep quiet about their suffering.

The reason the US is so concerned is because of US corporations that are angry at the appropriation of their land, and because of the terrorists in Miami who want to see Cuba blown off the map, and want to keep up a policy that deprives the other residents of what was their country before they betrayed it to the US.

My mistake, I guess everyone in a country that guarantees free speech is allowed to protest while the rest of the world has to keep quiet about their suffering.

Cuba's missions to Bolivia, Nicaragua, Congo, Angola and various other countries, and their heroic aid to the North Vietnamese, were acts of solidarity with their proletarian brothers against invasion by the US. The US used the Cuban traitors as CIA operatives to infiltrate South American governments and used military intelligence to help these governments destroy leftists in what became known as operation condor. There are no official figures on the death toll of this American dirty war, but it's placed somewhere between 10-20 thousand. Cuba was right to fight such imperialism.

Not really. Would you support your government if there were fucking you? If you answered no then why do you expect the Cuban people to support the communist aristocrats in Cuba?

Because the alternative is a loss of national sovereignty, a return to abject slavery to imperialist goals, and the wholesale slaughter of leftwing thinkers and state employees as was seen when the Spanish fascists won the war there. If the US were faced with such a challenge, I would likely cease my opposition to its government for the duration of hostilities and do what I could to defend my country.

Support Communism! You can feel like a revolutionary without actually doing anything!

Make random interjections! You can feel like you're debating without actually saying anything!

[Cobnat]

J m HofMarN

Your suggestion that socialism is the only alternative to imperialism is BS. Cuba can be a successful capitalist country with a protective trade policy. Having such a rigid economy has no benefit to anyone except those who are at the top.

[J m HofMarN]

My suggestion is that the current Cuban government is the only way that national sovereignty can be maintained. A change in rulers not approved by the fathers of the revolution such as His Excellency, would be catastrophic for Cuba and be quite likely to send them back into the thrall of American imperialists.

If the Castro brothers were to ease the restrictions on small businesses and so forth, that would be fine, but the suggestion that a capitalist government should come to rule in Cuba is one in the same as the suggestion that the American government should come to rule in Cuba.

[Deucaon]

If the Castro brothers were to ease the restrictions on small businesses and so forth, that would be fine, but the suggestion that a capitalist government should come to rule in Cuba is one in the same as the suggestion that the American government should come to rule in Cuba.

Explain how a country with a capitalist economy which has severe trade restrictions is the same as a country that is being ruled by a foreign power.

[J m HofMarN]

The status is the only way Cuba is going to become a capitalist society is if someone other than the Castros takes power. If the government made such a random change its a fair certainty that the united states would gain significant influence up to or above what it had before the revolution. The US government will stop at nothing to regain dominion over Cuba.

[Deucaon]

The status is the only way Cuba is going to become a capitalist society is if someone other than the Castros takes power. If the government made such a random change its a fair certainty that the united states would gain significant influence up to or above what it had before the revolution. The US government will stop at nothing to regain dominion over Cuba.

Cuba can still have a rigid political structure/system while having a capitalist/protectionist economy. If Cuban authorities can keep suppressing individual rights to keep the US at bay but that has nothing to do with the economics of the country.

[J m HofMarN]

And by the same token Bush could decide tomorrow that he'll pull our troops back, embrace homosexual marriage and universal healthcare, free the prisoners at Guantanamo and then volunteer himself for a war crimes trial, dragging all of his administration with him to the procedings.

Yes that could happen, but it won't. Raul will not turn Cuba into a capitalist economy. The only way that would happen is in the event of a coup, or very gradually over say, fifty or so years. So the only way to see immediate capitalist change is through a US backed coup, that's the sub text which is why I'm wary of people who support such an idea.

[Deucaon]

And by the same token Bush could decide tomorrow that he'll pull our troops back, embrace homosexual marriage and universal healthcare, free the prisoners at Guantanamo and then volunteer himself for a war crimes trial, dragging all of his administration with him to the procedings.

Yes that could happen, but it won't. Raul will not turn Cuba into a capitalist economy. The only way that would happen is in the event of a coup, or very gradually over say, fifty or so years. So the only way to see immediate capitalist change is through a US backed coup, that's the sub text which is why I'm wary of people who support such an idea.

I am not arguing what will happen but what should happen.

[J m HofMarN]

Ah, so basically instead of debating facts or sensible theories using logical progressions of events, we're debating what should happen? Very well, here is my suggestion:

President Castro should find some super soldier serum, and then go on a covert black op to capture Bush and his administration to put them on trial for war crimes, and then the US should elect Dennis Kucinich who will stop the embargo on Cuba and end any and all attempts to overthrow the government there, thus allowing President Castro to hold free elections and liberalize Cuban society.

[Deucaon]

Ah, so basically instead of debating facts or sensible theories using logical progressions of events, we're debating what should happen? Very well, here is my suggestion:

President Castro should find some super soldier serum, and then go on a covert black op to capture Bush and his administration to put them on trial for war crimes, and then the US should elect Dennis Kucinich who will stop the embargo on Cuba and end any and all attempts to overthrow the government there, thus allowing President Castro to hold free elections and liberalize Cuban society.

Find, continue being a dickhead.