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Poor Castro Hope he gets better

#91 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 12:36 PM

Ah. Well alright then. Here's your problem. See, the Republic was, as the name implies, a republic, where officials were elected. That means it served any number of different views. For instance, at the begining of the war the Anarchists were a larger and more organized party than the Moscow Communists, the Third Internationale communists or the Socialists put together. And then there were moderate republicans as well. All these groups held some degree of power that fluxuated throughout the war. The prevalence of the moscow communists towards the end of the war was effected not by a larger ideological affection, but because of the blockade against Republican Spain set up to appease Mussolini and Hitler that forced the Republic to take arms from the USSR and from France when Blum's government could stop wetting themselves for a minute or two.

As for the Spanish fascists, they get all of their aid from the two fascist powers. And rather than being a republic where divergent views were represented, they were a military dictatorship and always had been. The Catholic league leaders were largely dead, the Falancgist and Carlist leaders too. But Franco aligned himself most readily with the fascist Falange, and the universal salute of Nationalist Spain was the fascist raised outsrtretched hand. So yes, the fascists were fascists.

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#92 User is offline   z e w b Icon

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 03:25 PM

In my opinion, there's nothing inherently wrong with dictatorships. It all depends on the leader. If you have a strong, intelligent leader who knows that the good of the country and the rights of the citizens are the top priorities, then a dictatorship will work just fine. But if you have a megalomaniac leader who doesn't care about anything except his "glorious revolution", then the country is screwed. A leader's decisions should be influenced by rational thought, not his emotions.

Take a look at Hitler. He was a great leader for a while; he rebuilt his country's economy and became a national hero. He was Time Magazine's man of the year. He was like the FDR of Germany. But then he decided that settling his grudge against the people whom he believed ruined Germany in the first place was more important than making Germany a better country, so he started a massive war, killed millions of German citizens, and ruined everything.

Do you honestly believe that every one of those people who were jailed/murdered in Cuba for treason actually even committed treason? Do you think simply criticizing the government constitutes treason? Why is it bad if George W. Bush does things like this, but it's perfectly fine for Che Guevara or Fidel Castro to do the same thing?

This post has been edited by z e w b: 17 April 2008 - 03:37 PM

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#93 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 09:29 PM

Zewb- Your first two paragraphs have nothing to do with my previous two posts. Consider them ignored.

No I don't believe that everyone who is imprisoned in Cuba for treason is guilty of it. But they need to be overly cautious. Imprisoning a few dozen people who maybe arent really guilty is better than letting a few dozen people who are complicit with the US go free, who will then institute a Happy America ™ revolution that kills tens of thousands and makes Cuba an American thrawl once more.

If the US wants Cuba to democratize they need to do it democratically. How can you force freedom on people? It's an absurdity.

As for why it was ok for Guevara and Castro to do things, first off Bush is doing far worse than either of them. Second of all he's doing it for the cause of global domination, not to free an oppressed nation. And finally Bush isnt in a war to protect his people from foreign domination or invasion. Also, Bush is largely killing poor young Muslims, whereas Castro and Guevara's purges affected the oppressing class.

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#94 User is offline   z e w b Icon

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 10:07 PM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Apr 17 2008, 09:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How can you force freedom on people? It's an absurdity.


Why don't you ask your friend Castro?

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Apr 17 2008, 09:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As for why it was ok for Guevara and Castro to do things, first off Bush is doing far worse than either of them. Second of all he's doing it for the cause of global domination, not to free an oppressed nation.


I doesn't matter what your political goals are, murder is murder. So let's just agree that both Fidel Castro and George W. Bush are murderous suckers of Satan's cock.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Apr 17 2008, 09:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And finally Bush isnt in a war to protect his people from foreign domination or invasion.


Castro was protecting his people from domation and invasion by sending agents to invade their houses and dominate them.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Apr 17 2008, 09:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also, Bush is largely killing poor young Muslims, whereas Castro and Guevara's purges affected the oppressing class.


Oh yes, I forgot, the evil bourgeois who made the fatal mistake of having more money than other people and turning rebels in because they didn't want a massive war in their country.
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#95 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 11:51 PM

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Why don't you ask your friend Castro?


Why don't you ask your mom?

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So let's just agree that both Fidel Castro and George W. Bush are murderous suckers of Satan's cock.


Or we could, ya know, not. Either way really.

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Castro was protecting his people from domation and invasion by sending agents to invade their houses and dominate them.


hehehehehehehe bondage Castro to hordes of leather clad bdsm enthusiasts: "Storm their houses! Tie them up and whip them into submission!"

Come on. That logic works for anything.

"Roosevelt was trying to free Germany by sending agents to their houses to invade (their asses) and dominate them"

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Oh yes, I forgot, the evil bourgeois who made the fatal mistake of having more money than other people and turning rebels in because they didn't want a massive war in their country.


Yes. The people who controlled 60 percent of Cuba's land on behalf of US run businesses, who paid workers pennies a day, and who busted unions and had the communist party outlawed.

And I believe I already stated that anyone who informed on the rebels deserved to die. Don't make me repeat myself. They didnt want a massive war? They were already at war. Oppression is the worst form of warfare. They wanted to preserve their war against the proletariat and deny them the only form of warfare that can defeat oppression: the people's guerilla army.

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#96 User is offline   z e w b Icon

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 12:19 AM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Apr 17 2008, 11:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And I believe I already stated that anyone who informed on the rebels deserved to die.


Who are you to decide who gets to live and who dies?

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#97 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 03:35 AM

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Who are you to decide who gets to live and who dies?


QUOTE
Why don't you ask your mom?


Aside from that, I'm simply saying that I can completely see the reasoning behind the executions, and if I were in the same situation I like to think I would have the strength to do the same. Not just to execute enemies of the revolution, but to willingly lay down my life on the altar of international socialism. The willingness to fight and die for what one believes shows that a cause is just. That's why all the cowardly oppressors and Batista thugs fled Cuba if they could: the money they'd extorted was useless if they were dead. Fighting for money is not a cause worth dying for, nor a cause truly worth killing for. Fighting for freedom and the betterment of the proletariat is.

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#98 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 04:44 AM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Apr 18 2008, 12:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Aside from that, I'm simply saying that I can completely see the reasoning behind the executions, and if I were in the same situation I like to think I would have the strength to do the same.


I hope those who overthrow the communist aristocrats in Cuba show the same courtesy to the old guard.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Apr 18 2008, 12:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The willingness to fight and die for what one believes shows that a cause is just. That's why all the cowardly oppressors and Batista thugs fled Cuba if they could: the money they'd extorted was useless if they were dead.


So what about the Cubans who stayed behind to fight Castro and who have protested against his regime since then? Are they also "cowardly oppressors"?

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Apr 18 2008, 12:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Fighting for money is not a cause worth dying for, nor a cause truly worth killing for. Fighting for freedom and the betterment of the proletariat is.


The Cuban people are not allowed to complain and yet they are free. The Cuban people are not allowed to own land and yet they are free. The Cuban people are forced to accept being paid in a currency worth a tenth of what the currency given to the aristocrats of Cuba is worth and yet they are free. The Cuban people are not even allowed to buy anything from the free/black market and yet they are free. If this is freedom then maybe the alternative isnt such a bad thing.
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#99 User is offline   z e w b Icon

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 05:23 AM

- Zewb's Ten Commandments For Not Ruining Your Country -


1. Don't become obsessed with a political philosophy. Instead of simply assuming that one single system of government is going to solve all the problems, why not take the good things from more than one of them and combine them together? A lot of countries practice democratic socialism, and it seems to work quite well. People have rights, like in a democracy, and basic needs are provided, like in socialism.

2. Don't go to war. War is a great way to ruin your country. If you lose the war, your country is fucked. If you win the war, lots of countries will get pissed off at you, and then you're fucked again. Don't take sides with any country that is at war; don't send them guns or money, don't do anything. Stay the fuck out of foreign affairs. Maintain neutrality at all costs. People might call you a pussy, but fuck them, at least your economy isn't in the shitter.

3. Write a constitution. Include all basic human rights for your citizens, like freedom to write critical news articles about how much you suck, freedom to worship whatever wacky religion they want, etc.

4. Don't kill your citizens. I'm not talking about instating the death penalty for rapists and murderers; that's for you to decide. I'm talking about sending secret police into peoples' houses for treason and stuff like that. Of course, if you maintain neutrality, then treason won't even be an issue at all.

5. Provide for your citizens. Free healthcare is nice. You'll need more taxes to pay for it, but since you are neutral, you can take most of the money you would normally spend on funding an army to kill people in other countries and instead spend it on saving people in your own country.

6. Don't censor the media.

7. Legalize weed. It's 2008. Everyone knows smoking weed isn't that bad for you, at least not bad enough to be illegal. Your citizens will love you for this, and it will attract a lucrative tourism industry.

8. Don't ban alcohol. Banning alcohol is the first step in having a really shitty country. Saudi Arabia is an example of this.

9. Don't have an ugly flag. Use a nice, simple design with colors that blend well. Take Japan, for example. Very simple flag; just white space with a big red dot. When designing your flag, don't put written text on it, don't put a big detailed picture of a lion or some shit, and whatever you do, don't have a star for every one of your states on the flag. America made this mistake, not realizing that it would eventually have 50 states, and now the flag looks like a 5-year-old drew a picture of outer space on upper-left corner.

10. Don't be a dick. This is the most important rule. If everyone is saying you are a dick, then you need to change what you're doing immediately.

This post has been edited by z e w b: 18 April 2008 - 05:28 AM

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#100 User is offline   Spoon Poetic Icon

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 09:33 AM

Do you really think it was only "thugs" and "oppressors" that fled and flee Cuba?
I am writing about Jm in my signature because apparently it's an effective method of ignoring him.
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#101 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 03:30 AM

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I hope those who overthrow the communist aristocrats in Cuba show the same courtesy to the old guard.


No doubt they'll do that and worse if given a chance, hence why extraordinary measures are necessary to avoid that.

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So what about the Cubans who stayed behind to fight Castro and who have protested against his regime since then? Are they also "cowardly oppressors"?


A lot of them moved into the mountains and tried to wage a guerilla war with CIA backing. They surely put up a fightm, but they were fighting more as bandits than revolutionaries, and were soundly and justly quashed.

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The Cuban people are not allowed to complain and yet they are free. The Cuban people are not allowed to own land and yet they are free. The Cuban people are forced to accept being paid in a currency worth a tenth of what the currency given to the aristocrats of Cuba is worth and yet they are free. The Cuban people are not even allowed to buy anything from the free/black market and yet they are free. If this is freedom then maybe the alternative isnt such a bad thing.


Raul has encouraged people to make complaints to the government, actually. And no, they're not allowed to own land, but most poor people can't afford land anyhow, and the idea that all land is owned by the people is a better idea than that only the rich can own land. You act as though their wages are the only thing they can use, and fail to factor in the food rationing they recieve free. And yes, the Cuban people are allowed to buy commodities and market goods.

The alternative is a US invasion and 50 more years of subservience to Washington. Cuba fought and won their independence and to sacrifice the revolution at Washington's urging is to betray the very existence of the Cuban state.

Spoon- In the first days after the revolution, yes, I think it was mostly former regime accomplices and land owners who fled. Nowadays I know things have changed. I was unclear on that, sorry.

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
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#102 User is offline   z e w b Icon

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 07:03 AM

You act as if the word revolutionary is synonymous with the word hero. It's not. a revolutionary is someone who starts, or attempts to start a revolution. And a revolution is a significant change that takes place in a short period of time. Therefore, the people who rebelled against Castro were revolutionaries. Adolf Hitler was a revolutionary. John Wilkes Booth was a revolutionary. Even George Bush is a revolutionary.
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#103 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 11:57 AM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Apr 19 2008, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No doubt they'll do that and worse if given a chance, hence why extraordinary measures are necessary to avoid that.


So they are going to do worse then what the communist aristocrats are doing? They are going to do worse then imprisoning, torturing and killing people for speaking their mind? Sounds like a lot of fearmongering bollocks to me.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Apr 19 2008, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A lot of them moved into the mountains and tried to wage a guerilla war with CIA backing. They surely put up a fightm, but they were fighting more as bandits than revolutionaries, and were soundly and justly quashed.


How were they fighting more as bandits than revolutionaries? Why was their defeat just? How was it sound if dissent against Castros regime continues?

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Apr 19 2008, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Raul has encouraged people to make complaints to the government, actually.


Source? Is he releasing political prisoners as well?

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Apr 19 2008, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And no, they're not allowed to own land, but most poor people can't afford land anyhow,


How do you know they cant buy land if the government doesnt allow the purchases of land?

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Apr 19 2008, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
and the idea that all land is owned by the people is a better idea than that only the rich can own land.


Well since the communist aristocrats are the ones profiting from the exploitation of the workers, there isnt much difference.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Apr 19 2008, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You act as though their wages are the only thing they can use, and fail to factor in the food rationing they recieve free. And yes, the Cuban people are allowed to buy commodities and market goods.


Except there isnt enough food to go around in government stores so the people have to deal with the black market and for that they need money.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Apr 19 2008, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The alternative is a US invasion and 50 more years of subservience to Washington. Cuba fought and won their independence and to sacrifice the revolution at Washington's urging is to betray the very existence of the Cuban state.


So better that the Cuban people live like hungry slaves then the communist aristocracy sacrifice their reputation/honour?
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#104 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 01:40 PM

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Therefore, the people who rebelled against Castro were revolutionaries


No, they were counter-revolutionaries, AKA reactionaries. And I believe I've used the qualifier of Proletarian or People's revolution often enough for you to know what I'm talking about is not just some beer hall putsch.

QUOTE
So they are going to do worse then what the communist aristocrats are doing? They are going to do worse then imprisoning, torturing and killing people for speaking their mind? Sounds like a lot of fearmongering bollocks to me.


Without a doubt the new regime would dismantle the healthcare network and education network as vestiges of socialism, and as I already showed, US backed revolutions in the South are far more harmful than their communist counterparts. The reason you people are dead set against Cuba and not other human rights abusers is because they dared to defy the commonly understood rule that the US and their corporations hold sway over the Western Hemisphere. It has nothing to do with human rights or the poor unfortunate Cubans. You could care less that Pinochet tortured and murdered ten thousand people at the CIA's urgings, no, it's Cuba that's a problem.

And if you need to find a scapegoat for the supposed abuses in Cuba you need only look in the mirror. Support for interventionist policies, terrorism, invasion and blockade force the Cuban government to protect itself, and then you complain when they take steps to preserve their sovereignty in the middle of what is, let's face it, a clandestine war.

If you and people like you in this administration would grant Cuba the right to determine its own affairs and cease trying to force "democracy" down their throats, they would naturally democratize on their own. If the US tries to invade or institute a coup all of Cuba will rise and crush the imperialist aggression, and I will go to join them.

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How were they fighting more as bandits than revolutionaries? Why was their defeat just? How was it sound if dissent against Castros regime continues?


They took to the hills not to effect change, but to keep from being brought to justice (theres a reason they were equipped for war: many of the people in the sierras were former Batista militants or political gang members of his party) Some of them legitimately wanted to re-install a capitalist puppet government, but most were just interested in saving their own skins. And their defeat was just because Socialism won out, obviously.

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Source? Is he releasing political prisoners as well?


Look it up, Raul Castro has thus far allowed cell phones and dvd players and such to be sold to all Cubans, and opened up facilities formerly only available to foreign tourists to all Cubans. And I do hope he hasnt freed any traitors to the Revolution. The fewer of them are on the street the fewer agents for Bush to use.

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How do you know they cant buy land if the government doesnt allow the purchases of land?


Because they're poor? The idea of government control of land is to keep the rich from having too much. If they gave it away at this stage in the transition to Communism then it would concievably degrade right back to capitalism with a new class of land barons cropping up.

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Well since the communist aristocrats are the ones profiting from the exploitation of the workers, there isnt much difference.


Shove your worker exploitation up your ass. Suddenly you're so sympathetic for the workers, but you couldnt give a damn about union busting in countries that have been practically run by United Fruit, could you? You have never once mentioned that UF (the same company that owned a good chunk of Cuba) massacred workers in Venezuela for trying to unionize. You've never had a problem that when Arbenz took over in Guatemala to bring rights to its workers the UF company had Allen Foster Dulles organize a coup and install a military dictatorship. But now, because Fidel doesnt pay the workers enough to become landlords, now, you are the great champion of the rights of the proletariat? Your feigned compassion makes me want to wretch.

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Except there isnt enough food to go around in government stores so the people have to deal with the black market and for that they need money.


And since no one is starving to death it is concievable that they are getting enough money to make ends meet. And the scarcity of food is due to the embargo, not to Castro being evil and hording it all for himself.

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So better that the Cuban people live like hungry slaves then the communist aristocracy sacrifice their reputation/honour?


Oh yes, because before when there were no rights for them and people really DID starve to death inbetween the cane cutting season, they had it much better then. And it isnt just the honor of the leaders. It is national honor that is at stake. You wouldnt allow anyone to force a government on your country, or to tell you to release traitors from your prisons, yet you expect this from Cuba? Why? Are they less deserving of self determination? That seems to be your basis, that because they chose the "wrong" government they are not fit to choose their own path and must be returned to the warm and secure embrace of colonialism.

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#105 User is offline   z e w b Icon

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 06:03 PM

Yeah people fled the country not to escape from a tyrannical dictatorship, but to establish a secret puppet government. Those women and children who were executed were obviously trying to destroy the glorious revolution.
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