[Cobnat]

Ya see.

The communists want the United States because its an industrious country and the communists need industrious countries to make stuff out of red, why you ask, because they really like the colour red for some bizarre reason.

[J m HofMarN]

For those who are interested President Castro was seen on TV again recently and met with Vietnam's party chairman. He seems to be doing a lot better and I'm thankful for that.

[Sailor Abbey]

For those who are interested President Castro was seen on TV again recently and met with Vietnam's party chairman. He seems to be doing a lot better and I'm thankful for that.

Aw. Good for him.

[Cobnat]

Castro’s Cuba was no place for a socialist like me

This article of mine appears in the new edition of The Spectator.


It’s a country where the vast majority live in poverty, while a tiny, corrupt elite live in luxury. It’s a place where, 14 years after South Africa abolished apartheid, a form of it still operates. And it’s a country where you can be threatened with prison not just for criticising the country’s leadership, but also for querying a medical bill.

Welcome to Cuba, the ‘socialist’ paradise built by that great egalitarian Fidel Castro, who after 49 years at the helm has finally decided to hand over power — in the manner of a true democrat — to his brother Raúl.

My wife and I, as unreconstructed paleo-lefties who support Clause Four, free school meals and NHS dental provision, had long wanted to visit Castro’s Cuba. All the people whose views we respect had said that the Caribbean island was a progressive model whose policies on education and healthcare ought to be copied throughout the world. We went there last April desperately wanting to like the place — after all, if George W. Bush and other right-wing nasties hated Cuba so much, then the country must be on the right tracks.

But we returned home terribly disillusioned.

Neither of us had been to a country which was so utterly decrepit.
Stay on the officially approved tourist trail round the newly renovated streets of ‘Old Havana’ and you’d get the impression that Cuba was a tropical version of Switzerland. There are smart restaurants, designer shops and modern hotels. Wander a few streets away, however, and you’ll witness scenes of incredible dereliction. Dilapidated buildings with wires hanging out, streets that haven’t been resurfaced for more than 50 years, balconies that look like they’re going to fall down at any minute. In my travels in the Middle East and Asia, I’ve certainly witnessed squalor, but nothing prepared me for the back streets of Havana.

The average wage in Cuba is a pitiful $17 a month. The monthly ration which includes 283g of fish, 226g of chicken, ten eggs and 1.8kg of potatoes is barely enough for a fortnight, meaning most Cubans need to work the black market to stay alive. Things that we in Britain take totally for granted — such as toilet paper, toothpaste and pens — are luxury goods in Cuba. I’ll never forget the look of joy from an old lady when I handed her a couple of old marker pens and a coloured pencil.

For Fidel’s chums, life is somewhat easier. Despite its calls for further belt-tightening, the Cuban government last year ordered Series 1, 3 and 5 BMWs for all its ambassadors and a Series 5 model for Raúl Castro, who had taken charge of the country after his brother’s hospitalisation.

The heartbreaking consequences of Cuba’s currency apartheid were bought home to my wife and I on a Saturday afternoon visit to Havana’s Coppelia ‘Ice Cream’ park. To the right of the park gates was a long queue of Cubans who had only Cuban pesos. They have to wait on average two hours every weekend to get their weekly scoop of ice cream. On the left, there was walk-in access to tourists and the lucky locals who had convertible pesos.

Fifty years on, the Cuban revolution has turned full circle in a truly Orwellian fashion. Once again the locals find themselves excluded from the best beaches in their country, as they were under Batista. And prostitution, so rife in pre-revolutionary days, is back — the jineteras being the only group of Cubans allowed to enter the new purpose-built resorts.

US sanctions are routinely blamed by Cuba’s defenders for the country’s plight. But while sanctions are harsh and morally indefensible, there’s little doubt that they have been used by the regime as a smokescreen to cover up inefficiencies and corruption. Four years ago the head of the country’s largest tourism company, Cubanacan, was fired after millions of dollars went missing — the loss only coming to light after all state enterprises were ordered to transfer their US dollars into convertible pesos.

The totalitarian nature of Castro’s Cuba is no right-wing myth, but a reality. And you don’t have to be a political agitator to fall foul of the authorities, as my wife and I discovered. We had been told by our holiday rep that the hotel’s resident nurse would administer free basic medical care, but if we required the call-out services of a local doctor, we’d have to pay. After a day’s snorkelling I had a touch of ear-ache, so I popped along to the nurse’s office to ask if she had any medication. The nurse was a man, who after the most cursory examination of my ear pronounced that I had an infection which required antibiotics. How much would the antibiotics cost, I asked. About £60, he replied. As we were returning home later that day, I told him that I’d leave it till I got back. ‘Yes, but you still have to pay me £30 for this consultation,’ he replied. ‘But the services of the nurse are free,’ I said. ‘I’m a doctor,’ he replied.

Furious at being taken for a ride, my wife and I refused to pay and headed back to our room. But on trying to check out of the hotel later that morning, we were astonished to be told by the receptionist that if we did not settle the medical bill, she would ‘call state security’ and we would be arrested. We would not be allowed out of the country — ‘state security’ would apprehend us at the airport. The ‘doctor’ then reappeared to say that the rate — which had been set in stone — was after all negotiable, and that he’d accept £25. Forced into the corner and threatened with a night (at least) in a Cuban jail, we reluctantly paid up. ‘It’s nothing more than theft,’ I said to the ‘doctor’ as I handed over the money. ‘It doesn’t go to me,’ was his response. ‘It goes to the state.’

If the money from such scams really did go to the state — and towards improving the lot of the Cuban people — I wouldn’t have been so upset. But I strongly suspect that a share of my £25 will go towards the next fleet of BMWs for Castro’s cronies.

After the stress of our final day in Cuba, my wife and I were hugely relieved to leave the country. And when we were safely airborne, we both reflected that if any country was in need of a revolution, it was Fidel Castro’s Cuba.

This post has been edited by Cobnat: 21 February 2008 - 07:19 PM

[J m HofMarN]

Their complaints are as follows:

*Not all parts of cubas cities are very pretty. Infact some parts of the inner city dont look very nice. (gasp!)

*A nation under an international embargo doesnt have a plentiful ration of food.

*The government provides fancy cars to its embassies abroad which serve as representatives of the country.

*They were billed for going to a doctor

*Cubans threatened to call the authorities when they refused to pay this bill.

Ya know, I'm not seeing too many unreasonable things here.

[Cobnat]

*A nation under an international embargo doesnt have a plentiful ration of food.

CUZ KUBANA WONDENT BE LIK DIS WITUT DA EMBRGO!!!1!!! LMAO!1!!11!

*Not all parts of cubas cities are very pretty. Infact some parts of the inner city dont look very nice. (gasp!)
*The government provides fancy cars to its embassies abroad which serve as representatives of the country.

Better on fancy and expensive cars then on infrastructure or building programs, I always say. You know, if a country has the audacity to tax its citizens then it should at least invest that money into things the majority of its citizens can use.

*They were billed for going to a doctor
*Cubans threatened to call the authorities when they refused to pay this bill.

He was offered free medical service and then he was forced to pay. Methinks all the free medical service in Cuba is this way. Thing is, normal Cubans cant travel to other countries and complain about it on their blogs so we will never actually know if they have to pay or not. Then again, thats probably for the best because they might spread counterrevolutionary ideals.

[Radu094]

The image that comunist regimes have in the Western world amazes me every time. As I have lived under a comunist regime for quite a few years I felt the need to drop in.

First, if this thread is about concerns to Castro, then I want to express my sympathies aswell. He's quite a legendary figure, and seems to be quite a remarcable person (as far as my limited knowlegde of Castro and Cuba go).

Second, about how well Cuba is doing, or if Cuba is a good place to live ,this is a silly point.

Not all parts of cubas cities are very pretty. Infact some parts of the inner city dont look very nice. (gasp!)

You know what? It doesn't matter how pretty the cities look. It doesn't matter what an economy Cuba has, or how well you are treated there (as a foreign tourist mind you).

What matters (and what the West never got right) is that Cuba (just as any Communist state) is just one big large prison.

All those people there (well, the vast +90% majority) are simply prisoners of a political regime. They cannot leave the country, and they have no human rights. If you are born in Commie regime you need to shut up and never say what you think about your leaders. Not even to your neighbour because he might be an informant and then the next thing you know you will disappear one night when the police comes and takes you away.

Or you might just dissapear anyway, even if you don't say nothing.. because, you see, your informer neighbour has to "turn in" at least 1disdent a month to keep in the secret police happy, or so that he might get a promotion. So if he doesn't really like you he'll just make up something you never said.

Communism (as a political regime, not a as a social theory) works on frightening the population to the point of turning them into animals. It's a political disease and it is on par with any other form of dictatorship.

I don't care if the Communism sounds good on paper, and don't care if it looks like a utopian solution to the Capitalist greed. When it is put in practice, Communism turns people into animals.

k,10ks,bye

You may now return to your regular program..

[Slade]

I don't think they'd be counterrevolutionary at this point, given that we have what is possibly a Castro dynasty beginning,. They're rather the established regime.

...Why did they guy only just now write about visiting last April? And why did he expect the scamming doctor would turn over his scammed money to the government? If I were scamming people, I wouldn't give it to the government to misappropriate.

But maybe there would be more appeal to ending international embargos if Cuban diplomats had to drive around in Old, beat up Al Caminos instead of new BMWs?

[Cobnat]

I don't think they'd be counterrevolutionary at this point, given that we have what is possibly a Castro dynasty beginning,. They're rather the established regime.

The revolution is still alive in the hearts of the people (too bad its not alive in the hearts of the corrupt old men at the top). Seriously though, his brother is just ten years younger then he is, its going to be a very short dynasty unless one of the Castro brothers has kids.

...Why did they guy only just now write about visiting last April? And why did he expect the scamming doctor would turn over his scammed money to the government? If I were scamming people, I wouldn't give it to the government to misappropriate.

Ah… what a tangled web we weave.

But maybe there would be more appeal to ending international embargos if Cuban diplomats had to drive around in Old, beat up Al Caminos instead of new BMWs?

That makes sense. I would totally feel sorry for a country if I saw their ambassadors driving around in a Ford Laser.

[Simperin' Fool]

I don't care if the Communism sounds good on paper, and don't care if it looks like a utopian solution to the Capitalist greed. When it is put in practice, Communism turns people into animals.

Hell, even on paper it looks bad when you read into the subtext.

For communism to work, it depends wholly on the ideological dedication of everyone involved. For maximum efficiency, everybody has to pull their weight. But that's not in our nature: when you get big groups of people together, there is always a difference of opinion somewhere, always dissent. Communism forgets the importance of incentives, such as if you don't give people a reason to succeed, if they still get the same reward regardless of how hard they work, they're going to do the bare minimum.

The concept is inherently flawed, but it's not obvious to people who don't know what to look for. This, coupled with the emotional appeal it has, makes it very subversive, and the underlying philosophy makes it very dangerous.

In a communist state, the individual means nothing; individuals are sacrificed for the good of "society"... but society is just a collection of individuals. There's a big guilt complex that makes any sort of self-interest reprehensible and evil, while selfless sacrifice to the state is the ultimate good; there are few things as disturbing and terrifying as that, I think.

I could not agree with you more: communism denies people of their humanity. It is one of the greatest evils ever devised by man.

[J m HofMarN]

Radu- Which government might that have been? There are various different styles and phases of communism, and I think Cuba has a different one than say the former soviet republics. I also wish to point out that if you approve of Cuban sovereignty, you cant be too hard on Castro, since his government is the only sovereign government cuba has had in its history. I don't think things are as bad in Cuba as in the eastern bloc countries, but Cuba has a very good reason to organize citizen militias and informants. They are under a state of siege fighting not for communism, but for their right to self determination.

Castro is the greatest representative of south america's sovereignty since Bolivar, and thats why so many leaders there reveal him even if they dont approve of his policies. I for one do approve of communism, and I'm a party member myself. But that's neither here nor there. The only people with any business dictating Cuba's future are Cubans. I think theres a marked difference between the comparatively secure eastern bloc and a country under constant threat of invasion, bribery, assassination and infiltration.

I once again reiterate my unconditional support for both Presidents Castro, and their efforts to maintain communism and sovereignty. However I also hope that under Raul Cuba will liberalize a bit and allow some free market and other reforms, but any real reform will have to come with an easing of US attempts to retake Cuba as its colony.

I dont want to argue with you about socialism since its obviously going to be a touchy subject. I do however ask that you at least recognize Cuba's right to sovereignty. I don't think that the Eastern bloc was sovereign thanks to Russia, and therefore I wouldnt support the communist puppet governments that came to rule (and even some of those that weren't puppets. Tito was a dick too) But in the same way, if a country chooses to be communist and the US is going to try to force them to accept democracy (IE the US funding the campaign of whoever they want to be in power) then I think that the communist government aught to be preferable to everyone as it is both sovereign and has the good of the people as its main concern.

For communism to work, it depends wholly on the ideological dedication of everyone involved.

That statement works for any form of government. And just because governments exist doesnt mean their working. No one in the US believes much in democracy now, but our government still "functions" after a fashion.

However the one thing everyone here seems to believe in is capitalism. But rampant capitalism has proven to be just as bad for most people as communism. The state has to work to curb peoples ambitions and equalize things. And yes, there will be corruption, but thats why the government should be elected and accountable. Corrupt governments running businesses while pretending to have the interest of the workers at heart is better than a corrupt businessman running businesses while openly having his own interests at heart.

while selfless sacrifice to the state is the ultimate good; there are few things as disturbing and terrifying as that, I think.

If the state represents the common good, then that idea doesn't terrify me, but rather that seems to me to be the way people aught to think.

I could not agree with you more: communism denies people of their humanity. It is one of the greatest evils ever devised by man.

You then are assuming that humans at their core are good and that whatever choice or competitivity communism tries to deny must also primarily be good. Communism however is meant to deny the basest of human emotions -- greed, covetousness, jealousy, etc etc. Whether that works or not is uncertain but I think the theory is sound.

[Radu094]

But in the same way, if a country chooses to be communist and the US is going to try to force them to accept democracy

Well, that is my point right there. Do you belive that taken to a fair and corect vote, the Cuban population would vote in their majority to remain in Cuba and under a comunist regime?
I think a lot of them would not, and maybe even worse, those who do not support the regime are forced to stay there and suffer it's effects.

I would honestly support any form of dictatorship where the people would vote in their majority to keep their "elected" dictator to power. It's one of those " If that's what you vote that's what you deserve." But comunist regimes, like any other form of dictatorship is usually forced on to the vast majority, usually by a small minority that controls a large armed force (or in the case of the eastern European countries by a combination of that and an even larger Soviet Red Army sitting on the borders).

You may call it what you want, you can be a fan of comunism and appreciate Marx for what it is. Feel free to do that, I can understand the appeal myself, but the reality is that to this day no comunism regime has managed to stay in power without resorting to violence, intimidation, secret police and (mentally or physically) torturing it's own people.

There is just no practical solution that will keep a comunist government in power! People just don't operate this way. Like Simperin' Fool said, I think there is an inherent flaw in that the theory fails to understand the lazyness of human nature. And this makes any comunist regime (like that in Cuba) black-listed on my book. I don't need to know anything about it.. I just know it's bad.

[Simperin' Fool]

However I also hope that under Raul Cuba will liberalize a bit and allow some free market and other reforms

That would make it socialism, wouldn't it? Marx condemned personal ownership of anything, which conflicts with the idea of a free market.

That statement works for any form of government. And just because governments exist doesnt mean their working. No one in the US believes much in democracy now, but our government still "functions" after a fashion.

Not to the same extent, I don't think. Even in a socialist environment, there can be incentives to work hard. Communism, however, depends entirely on the honor system, unless you want to give the government the authority to police itself, like Lenin did, which completely defeats the purpose of communism, so it's sort of a catch-22.

No single type of government is perfect, but there's sure as Hell some that are better.

However the one thing everyone here seems to believe in is capitalism. But rampant capitalism has proven to be just as bad for most people as communism. The state has to work to curb peoples ambitions and equalize things. And yes, there will be corruption, but thats why the government should be elected and accountable. Corrupt governments running businesses while pretending to have the interest of the workers at heart is better than a corrupt businessman running businesses while openly having his own interests at heart.

Mercantilism. It's an economic theory that stresses aggression and dominance.

If the state represents the common good, then that idea doesn't terrify me, but rather that seems to me to be the way people aught to think.

No. Nobody should ever think that they don't have the right to be happy, that they're so deeply obligated to a higher authority that they should be willing to bend over backwards and let "the state" walk all over them. Charity and goodwill towards your fellow man is all well and good, but teaching people to feel guilty of their success is wrong, because that's denying them of a basic human right, one that our Constitution is supposed to protect: the pursuit of happiness.

Socialism is just as noble in its intentions, and isn't a guilt-mongering, authoritarian philosophy, so it is infinitely superior and leaves no reason for communism to even exist.

You then are assuming that humans at their core are good and that whatever choice or competitivity communism tries to deny must also primarily be good. Communism however is meant to deny the basest of human emotions -- greed, covetousness, jealousy, etc etc. Whether that works or not is uncertain but I think the theory is sound.

Not in the slightest. Humans are bastards at their core. But we're still human, we still feel. We're not machines. And because of this, we also aren't totally evil at heart, so most people have some good in them.

And, yes, denying our most base desires is one of its flaws. Marx apparently assumed that nobody would try to turn his lovely system into a dictatorship for their own gain, but Lenin proved him wrong.

This post has been edited by Simperin' Fool: 23 February 2008 - 09:45 AM

[J m HofMarN]

Well, that is my point right there. Do you belive that taken to a fair and corect vote, the Cuban population would vote in their majority to remain in Cuba and under a comunist regime?

I honestly do. First of all its their country, and its a government that their parents elected with their blood. Second of all the alternative to communism is to become a US colony again. And no one wants a return to the days of Batista. Theres rationing now. Under Batista there were no rations at all.

no comunism regime has managed to stay in power without resorting to violence, intimidation, secret police and (mentally or physically) torturing it's own people.

President Castro does not torture, every government has some form of secret police, and every government will use violence to defend itself. If you compare what Castro has done for Cuba in the past 50 years to what happened under US backed regimes at the same time he was ruling you will have no choice but to accept that Cuba was better off under Castro. Nicaragua, Chile, Panama, El Salvador and various other countries in the area had US backed dictatorships and tens of thousands were killed or tortured there. President Castro saved his people from a fate worse than death; domination.

That would make it socialism, wouldn't it? Marx condemned personal ownership of anything, which conflicts with the idea of a free market.

Then by that logic any society where a child is allowed to posess a toy and not made aware that it is the State's toy can't be considered communist. Nope, I rather like a looser definition of communism. Much like most of the world's Christians dont follow all Christian law but are still Christians.

Communism, however, depends entirely on the honor system, unless you want to give the government the authority to police itself, like Lenin did, which completely defeats the purpose of communism, so it's sort of a catch-22.

Doesnt every government essentially police itself? As for the honor system the difference is that in capitalism we apply the honor system to the corporate elites, while communism applies it to the workers. I think on the whole that the proletariat is a more ethical class than the bourgeoise.

No. Nobody should ever think that they don't have the right to be happy, that they're so deeply obligated to a higher authority that they should be willing to bend over backwards and let "the state" walk all over them. Charity and goodwill towards your fellow man is all well and good, but teaching people to feel guilty of their success is wrong, because that's denying them of a basic human right, one that our Constitution is supposed to protect: the pursuit of happiness.

If the higher authority is the common good of the people than people should feel deeply obligated to that authority. This does not require letting the state walk all over them, it merely encourages proletarian solidarity, working together, and sacrificing in the name of the common good. And teaching people to feel guilty of their success is right if that success is forged on exploitation of the workers. And I seriously doubt that people under communism are somehow magically deprived of happiness. Unless the Ministry has started sending dementors to all communist countries.

And, yes, denying our most base desires is one of its flaws. Marx apparently assumed that nobody would try to turn his lovely system into a dictatorship for their own gain, but Lenin proved him wrong.

I think that communism acknowledges our base desires, it just tries to restrain them. And Lenin wasnt that bad of a guy. Now Stalin or Mao I have problems with.

[Spoon Poetic]

I honestly do. First of all its their country, and its a government that their parents elected with their blood. Second of all the alternative to communism is to become a US colony again. And no one wants a return to the days of Batista. Theres rationing now. Under Batista there were no rations at all.

You need to talk to some Cubans, mate. Why do you think so many Cubans flee/try to flee Cuba? Because they love living in Cuba so much? Or go to Cuba and talk to people there. They have to say they love it there, but pay attention to the body language and tone when they say it.

I don't understand why you think Cuba is this country full of butterflies and joy. Castro shits rainbows, man! I mean, sure, there is some stuff that is better than it was - but it has serious problems. I won't bother listing them because it's already been done.