[barend]

It's funny, after seeing the last episode or two of clone wars i typed this...

grevious, sounds cool... mace kinda goes of (he crushed grevious' chest)...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

http://www.chefelf.c...?showtopic=2885

well, at least they kept to that...

[SithAvenger]

Grievous' coughing is the reason why I consider this canon.

This post has been edited by SithAvenger: 11 June 2005 - 06:36 PM

[Giff]

Meh....I enjoy this cartoon. I think that Gendy has done a fine job with it.

[KurganX]

Since GL actually watched the Clone Wars cartoon and gave his personal approval, would it be reasonable to consider the events of the cartoon as canon?

I don’t know who did the reckoning before, but an early list included: the movies, novelizations, and the radio recordings.

Given the strengths and limitations of each medium, each could contribute to the bare essence of GL’s creation, as opposed to an acquired monetary franchise where companies simply make up the storyline with input from LFL (which isn’t necessarily GL).

Here’s something that impacts the SW universe depending on whether the cartoon is considered canon:

In Chapter 6, Asajj Ventress says she is Sith, not just an expert in lightsaber fighting. Are there suddenly more that just the master and apprentice, thus, breaking the so-called Rule of Two?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are 2 types of Star Wars canon (well more actually but let me explain)... and this is a very condensed version of Lucas's current policy (this all came about recently):

G-Level Canon = Stuff made by Lucas himself. Highest level of canon.
C-Level Canon = Stuff made by other people with Lucas's permission (liscensed stuff)

N-Level Canon = Ie: "Non-Canon" this refers to the first 20 chapters of "Star Wars Tales" and "Infinities" ("what if?" speculative stuff) and any fan fics or other unliscensed works.

S-Level Canon = stuff that hasn't been categorized yet. So really new or really obscure stuff.

Basically the canon policy now is that you don't throw out SOURCES unless absolutely necessary. So if there's some stupid incident or character in a story, now contradicted by a higher source, only that bit gets tossed out (or retconned by a new source explaining it all away with handwaving), not the whole thing.

So there's a contradiction? Look to a higher source (the movies are the highest source, period, and apparently the latest Special Editions trump any old edits as Lucas's "definitive vision"... remember G-level canon is what George decides!)

So parts of the Holiday Special are now G-Level canon (the Wookiee planet Kashyyyk for example, though spelled differently in the script), even though Lucas himself said he'd like to smash all bootleg copies with a sledgehammer if he had the time (and the hammer).

Leeland "Tastee Tasty" Chee is in charge of "The Holocron" hired by Lucas to sort this junk out. So yes, parts of Clone Wars are canon. Anything in it that contradicts the movies, those parts are thrown out or retconned.

Assaj Ventress isn't a Sith, she just calls herself one (Dooku mocks her for it). Dooku trains her a bit and then she gets killed (though I hear they brought her back for some comic or something stupid). No harm, no foul. The EU gets around the "Rule of Two" by just not calling any of the Dark Jedi, red lightsaber carrying bad guys "Sith" except for 2 of them. Of course they could have just said "Rule of Two? Rule of Schmoo! We're changing it, get stuffed ghost of Darth Bane!"

So to answer your question, the EU ("Expanded Universe") is by definition written by others, so it's C-Level canon. A number of (mostly small) things in CW contradict details in the ROTS novelisation for example, which although not written by Lucas, is based on the Screenplay (which was written by Lucas). Lucas supposedly had a line-approval-edit on the novel, so he got to say what went and what stayed (most EU stuff it sounds like he just reads an outline and gives it a rubber stamp). Where the novel contradicts the film, the film wins. The extreme power of the Jedi (and Grevious) in the CW cartoons is an exaggeration. The Jedi were constrained by the "shroud of the Dark Side" supposedly throughout the Prequel Trilogy (even, apparently during the time of TPM, according to the ROTS novelisation). Jedi vs. a much smaller army of droids in AOTC are slaughtered. Mace Windu fights an even larger army alone a very short time later? Riiiight. These same Jedi who get wasted by a squad of Stormtroopers (okay, they got caught off guard most of the time, but still). And Grevious kills multiple Jedi Masters in the cartoon, but in the movie he gets bested by a lone Jedi? Whoops!

We've never actually seen Jedi at their "full power" according to Lucas. Except maybe Luke in ROTJ, though he was barely trained compared to these classic era Jedi.

This post has been edited by KurganX: 19 June 2005 - 06:49 AM

[James12345]

The extreme power of the Jedi (and Grevious) in the CW cartoons is an exaggeration. The Jedi were constrained by the "shroud of the Dark Side" supposedly throughout the Prequel Trilogy (even, apparently during the time of TPM, according to the ROTS novelisation). Jedi vs. a much smaller army of droids in AOTC are slaughtered. Mace Windu fights an even larger army alone a very short time later? Riiiight. These same Jedi who get wasted by a squad of Stormtroopers (okay, they got caught off guard most of the time, but still). And Grevious kills multiple Jedi Masters in the cartoon, but in the movie he gets bested by a lone Jedi? Whoops!

We've never actually seen Jedi at their "full power" according to Lucas. Except maybe Luke in ROTJ, though he was barely trained compared to these classic era Jedi.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No you are wrong, let me explain....

Grieivous killing many jedi is not a mistake, Grievous is powerfull with the lightsaber, but Dooku handles him with ease. Why?

Combat is combat, anything can happen...

Like in a REAL fight, if fear grips the enemy they can be reduced in effectiveness, why does Dooku tell Grievous with no force powers to use this as a weapon, if you have been in a real fight you would know.

The force when it comes to lightsaber combat is the power of focus and near predestination, Obi-Wan is powerfull and does not give in to the weakness of fear and defeats Greivous as Windu or some more powerful jedi or sith would have.

Remember, only the possible is possible, jedi are not invincable...they just know where blaster shots are going to be before the trigger is squeezed, if we can conclude that light moves at the speed of light.

Physically Grievous is stronger than any biological being, however that doesn't mean that the right swing at the right time cannot land. Most jedi are not strongest with the lightsaber, most are skilled diplomats, right?

Anakin kills Dooku, Dooku defeats Obi... based on metachlorian count that cannot be, have a canon in the same film?

No, anything can happen...even in the SW universe

[Despondent]

Wow. I'm like so blown away. I just saw some clone wars cartoon and it was the last hour. So that's what led up to rots. I'm glad to see the powerful reason behind Grevious' coughing was a motion a cartoon Mace made which if you blinked you missed it anyway.

There wasn't much to like in it, but there was some. I liked the field of stars focusing into star destroyers. Other than that, not so much. I could have gone without seeing it. Kind of like the PT if it was another franchise.

[KurganX]

No you are wrong, let me explain....

Grieivous killing many jedi is not a mistake, Grievous is powerfull with the lightsaber, but Dooku handles him with ease. Why?

Combat is combat, anything can happen...

True, but certain things are more plausible than others, given what we know about these types of combat!

Grevious is outmatched by any Jedi, clearly. When Jedi have trouble in the movies we always have extenuating circumstances (well except for the Droidekas I suppose.. the only answer for that one is that they "didn't want to spend the time" which sounds weak). The shroud of the dark side limiting their powers, Obi-Wan wanted to arrest Jango, the clones had the element of surprise over the (weakened) Jedi, inadequate training, overwhelming numbers/firepower, etc.

The idea that a few stormtroopers could kill a Jedi Master seemed pretty absurd to me at first, even with the shroud of the dark side thing (how come it didn't seem to affect Obi-Wan or Yoda? Granted they tried to explain this in the novel point, but still, most people didn't read it beforehand to know). Re-watching the DVD I can see that they pretty much went full auto on them and shot them many, many times. At least more of the Jedi killed were done so with vehicle weapons wherein they wouldn't have the chance to raise their saber in defense like they normally do. With the main element of surprise gone, Obi and Yoda can slaughter clones as easily as they do battledroids.

The scene where Obi-Wan force pushes Grevious shows he was toying with him in order to stall for time so his troops could show up. Grevious was fighting for his life, got a bit lucky, but the Force let Obi-Wan win in the end.

I will agree that in general in combat the Jedi are incredibly arrogant and thus do a lot of counter productive things, like not wearing armor or space suites, or carrying other weapons besides lightsabers, that might help them in certain situations. The Force saves their skin time and again of course, so I guess I can't blame them for being too cocky and overreliant on it (and that armor doesn't really protect you much anyway in Star Wars, but it's not like they couldn't afford it!).

Like in a REAL fight, if fear grips the enemy they can be reduced in effectiveness, why does Dooku tell Grievous with no force powers to use this as a weapon, if you have been in a real fight you would know.

I've never been in a fight with somebody who had force powers, this is true. I'm sure I can say with 100% certainty you haven't either. But fighting somebody who lacks the Force and you have it, is like having somebody with a loaded machine gun fighting somebody with no weapons whatsoever. Okay, yeah, the machinegunner could lose the fight if they're an idiot (ie: under ideal circumstances in the other person's favor), but it's not likely to happen.

Psychological stuff is important sure, but it can't make up for vast differences in power in all cases. It's true that when Grievious gets pissed off he fights better, but it also makes him make mistakes (like picking up the staff instead of his gun to finish Kenobi off after his lucky throw).

The force when it comes to lightsaber combat is the power of focus and near predestination, Obi-Wan is powerfull and does not give in to the weakness of fear and defeats Greivous as Windu or some more powerful jedi or sith would have.

That is precisely my point. Obi-Wan has precognition. Grevious does not. All the Jedi whom Grevious supposedly fought also have precognition, so they should all be ahead of him in combat lightsaber prowess by default. I have no trouble believing that Grevious could slaughter a normal person. But casually slaughtering Jedi Masters in personal combat? No way.

Remember, only the possible is possible, jedi are not invincable...they just know where blaster shots are going to be before the trigger is squeezed, if we can conclude that light moves at the speed of light.

We can't conclude they move at the speed of light. If they did, we wouldn't see them as individual bolts. Also we wouldn't see Gungans (we have no indication they have Force abilities) intercept bolts with handheld shields either. I'm not saying the Jedi can move at the speed of light, but we do know they are capable of moving faster than normal people! Their abilities extend far beyond mere precognition, obviously.

Physically Grievous is stronger than any biological being, however that doesn't mean that the right swing at the right time cannot land. Most jedi are not strongest with the lightsaber, most are skilled diplomats, right?

Unfortunately the Jedi he's fought and even the ones he's supposedly killed were all considered expert at saber fighting AND force abilities. It's not like he was slaughtering younglings and librarians!

Seriously, if the Clone Wars Season 2 and 3 were never made, I'd have laughed off anyone who said Grievous killed Jedi in hand to hand combat. As it is I'm forced to conclude that the CW is just an exaggerated version of history seen through the eyes of a child recalling events that were distorted by his or her imagination. In any case, the movies are higher canon and tell a different story of the character. If we take the Clone Wars literally, we're to assume that Grievous became cowardly because of one speech by Dooku and suddenly lost his fighting ability because of Mace Windu's crushing his chest (which didn't show any damage and couldn't be repaired). OR, we're to assume that all the Jedi are chumps except for Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan and Anakin.

On the ROTS DVD it's made clear that Lucas's vision of the General is nothing like what we're given in the Clone Wars cartoon.

Anakin kills Dooku, Dooku defeats Obi... based on metachlorian count that cannot be, have a canon in the same film?

No, anything can happen...even in the SW universe

I never said midichlorian counts had anything to do with fighting prowess. It's just a stretch that somebody with no resistance to the Force whatosever can regularly make chumps out of people who are known for combat prowess that is augmented by the Force... and we're supposed to swallow this when we have NO evidence whatsoever in the highest canon source for this claim.

Okay, we have one piece of evidence from the film, that he collects lightsabers. It's hardly conclusive however, like Shaak Ti's alternate death scene in the ROTS Deleted scenes... we need not assume that he had to actually kill these Jedi in single combat every time to obtain his "trophies."

Lucas's story is what it is, I'm just talking about a piece of the EU that just doesn't quite fit with movie canon. I'm sure the creators of CW were obligated to play up the new villian, it's just that it didn't turn out that way. You can see it as part of the general level of exaggeration in the series (Mace Windu suddenly being able to destroy an entire Droid army by himself), but there you go.

This post has been edited by KurganX: 27 November 2005 - 07:58 AM

[KurganX]

One more point... about the only example of a non-Force user taking out a Jedi in single combat from the movies is when Jango shoots that "Parasauralophis" dinosaur-headed Jedi in AOTC.

He blocks a shot or two which knocks his blade away and then he gets shot clear in the chest and knocked over the railing to his death.

We could surmise that this Jedi sucked (my money's on that one) and possibly that Dooku distracted him (he appears to have been going for Dooku and didn't notice Jango until he started getting shot at).

That scene also is very reminiscent of one from Spartacus wherein the tall black gladiator goes after the owner observing the fight in the stands, who then kills him with a dagger.