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Star Wars Trivia -Super Bonus Question!!!

#46 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 02:25 AM

QUOTE (barend @ Apr 7 2004, 12:05 AM)
AGHGHGHGHHHGHGHGHGHGHHHHHHHHHHG G G !!!

SHUT UP! SHUT UP! JUST TELL US WHO THE GODDAMNED ACTORS ARE AND WE CAN ALL GO HOME!!!

please smile.gif

I agree.

But first:

WRATH OF KHAN is a great space action flick, and it spends the right amount of time on character. Thare's no need for a review here; anyone with any interest in STAR TREK thinks it's just the best.

THE MOTION PICTURE is flat and boring, too long for its paper-thin borrowed-from-tv plot, and weak on character, seeing as most of the development goes into new characters who both disappear by the end of the show and who have nothing to do with the original cast. The extras and bit parts were obviously the producers' girlfriends, and the film wasted a lot of time playing in nostalgia, lovingly photographing the Enterprise from every angle, when it might have been advancing its thin storyline. That said, it was the only STAR TREK film I was ever excited to see in a movie theatre. I rushed out, I bought the McDonald's Happy Meal, and I was awed by the film at the time, so it gets points for being a part of my childhood not later ruined by George Lucas.


All of the remaining STAR TREK movies are a tie for dead last. They are all dreadful and cynical
shit, none worth watching twice. So in chronological order:


THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK reversed one of the greatest film deaths in science fiction. Spock's sacrifice in WOK is about as emotional as Roy Batty's last words in BLADERUNNER, and he pulls it off without the slow-motion pigeon. Nimoy insisted on resurrecting Spock, and for that I credit him with killing the franchise irrevocably. He took a series already pretty inconsistent and weak and declared that anything goes.

THE VOYAGE HOME is cute, and there are jokes. There is also an environmental message that would embarrass a 12-year-old, but wait! There's also lame comedy about Spock's memory loss and learning to swear! One damn minute, admiral; I thought I paid five bucks for this!

THE FINAL FRONTIER is a nightmare, and not because Sean "I can ruin anything" Connery isn't in it. It's a nightmare because Uhura is still asked to be a sex symbol, because Kirk wins in a bar fight, because Kirk is still asked to be a sex symbol, because there are horses for no God-damned reason other than director Shatner thinks he looks sexy on one, and because now Spock has a brother. In a move that would have made Laurel and Hardy proud, he defends twenty years of retiscence on the matter with "you never asked." Sweet fucking Jesus. Oh yeah, and they get to the origin of the universe at warp 9, and meet something that may be God. Life is but a dream.

THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY was like a two-parter on the new tv series, and strong for that. It also had a mystery plot that was written for the the Kirstie Alley/ Robin Curtis character and off-loaded to Kim Catrall out of fear of upsetting fans. This change was pretty damn transparent, however, and the revelation lost all potential drama. The Klingons going about quoting Shakepeare was just enough to tip the scales in favour of the "this is crap" argument. And it wasn't the Hamlet that did it for me, like it was for a lot of people. The line between the movie being good mystery/sci-fi/action and crap was the "dogs of war" quote from Julius Caesar. Great guest stars, but I couldn't help but notice that I wasn't actually watching Julius Caesar, which might have been something with that cast.

GENERATIONS is awful. The Enterprise crashing was NOT dramatic; it was desperate. I could actually see through the screen to the writers begging one another to come up with something as exciting as the destruction of the Enterprise in SEARCH FOR SPOCK (only real moment in that whole film). "We got Kirk in a cabin cutting wood; what can we do here?" Another episode where Guinan has mysterious powers even she doesn't understand, yawn. Kirk and Picard together in a fight with Caligula! Hooray! Two of the hammiest actors ever in one scene! Awful introduction of the new cast, stupid premise, terrible execution, and worst use of a go-back-in-time wish ever in the history of such plot loopholes.

FIRST CONTACT makes the cynical play of taking all of the lame characters and putting them in a "B" plot on the surface of the planet. Something about convincing a drunk rocker to do something he's already done, since it's history. Fantastically stupid for an episode of SLIDERS, and here it is on the big screen without that hot chick from Maxim magazine. The "A" story isn't half bad, and it's got all of the cool characters in it, except that the writers cheat in two key ways: a) they realize the villains lack character and so create a completely unique "leader" for them (absolutely out of chracter with their collective mind), and they try to make her sex up the robot; and cool.gif they write in a nonsense character to counsel Picard on his emotional baggage, when they already have a character, Dr Crusher, in whom he would naturally confide such things. That they make her a stereotypical wise black woman is just embarrassing, since it's about the biggest screenwriting cliche since openly quoting from old movies (which they also do, in a lame holodeck sequence). Not the worst TREK ever, but bad bad bad.

INSURRECTION is terrible, I agree. So bad I can't remember enough to even comment. Except that I recall it was a story I thought they might have treated well on tv, but I knew damn well they were going to botch up in a movie. Didn't Data turn invisible in this one?

NEMESIS has a villain identical to Commodus in GLADIATOR, which shouldn't be surprising since both films share screenwriter John Logan. Nemesis is frankly the most embarrassing STAR TREK film of them all, since it even attempts to borrow the death of Spock from the beloved WRATH OF KHAN, here killing off fan favorite Data. He dies, in fact, disarming a superweapon, which fans of the series will remember is how Spock dies in the hands-down favorite STAR TREK ever among the majority of fans. However, Logan doesn't have the courage to keep him dead, so we also get the resurrection from SEARCH FOR SPOCK, sorta. Lacking some bullshit mystical mind-transfer, they literally find a head buried in the sand on a planet they had no business being on, and by the end of the show it has turned into a replacement Data. And the comedy of the proto-Data is so much like the memory-addled Spock in VOYAGE HOME that I really felt like I was watching a producton of "Star Trek For Dummies."


--------------------------------------


Anyway, by some demand, I will reveal the answers to Mike's big questions Not wanting to spoil it for anyone not wanting to know, I will tell all in links.

The First actor is this guy: http://imdb.com/name/nm0935067/ who if you look you'll see was in a TREK episode or movie one time, and who played a very small pat in the STAR WAS saga (not enough to make the credits!). You'll see, too, that all of my comments about his are bang-on as are Mike's clues.

The second actor is this guy: http://imdb.com/name/nm0720890/ who if you look was in a TREK episode, but not a back-in-time one as Mike claims (it's more like a holodeck episode, but it's not that, either). Anyway, he plays a role similar to actor one in the STAR WARS series, but he got the benefit of actually being in the credits, so alot more people should have been expected to know him.

The third actor, the one I added, is Carel Struycken ( http://imdb.com/name/nm0835393/ ). He played "Mr Homm," Troi's mother's manservant, in several episodes of THE NEXT GENERATION. He also played an urelated character in an episode of VOYAGER. He was also King Terak in EWOKS: THE BATTLE FOR ENDOR (1985), which I certainly wouldn't call a STAR WARS movie but which WAS written and exec-produced by George Lucas.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 07 April 2004 - 02:31 AM

"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#47 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 03:19 AM

QUOTE
It failed to capture the TV series feel and it had a bald woman in it as the sex interest


Regarding the bald women

I can't recall her name or her home town where she grew up. (I could search for it but meh..) I do know this; I read in a magzine, many years back, that after THE MOTION PICTURE she was unable to get work any where else in hollywood.

Ultimatley, she moved back to her native country, and died in the lap of poverty.
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#48 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 03:21 AM

QUOTE
Nimoy insisted on resurrecting Spock, and for that I credit him with killing the franchise irrevocably


ROFL


QUOTE
There is also an environmental message that would embarrass a 12-year-old


ROFL!

QUOTE
It's a nightmare because Uhura is still asked to be a sex symbol, because Kirk wins in a bar fight, because Kirk is still asked to be a sex symbol, because there are horses for no God-damned reason other than director Shatner thinks he looks sexy on one, and because now Spock has a brother


ROFL!!!



I laughed my ass off reading that post.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 07 April 2004 - 03:25 AM

Oh SMEG. What the smeggity smegs has smeggins done? He smeggin killed me. - Lister of Smeg, space bum
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#49 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 10:33 AM

QUOTE
All of the remaining STAR TREK movies are a tie for dead last. They are all dreadful and cynical
shit, none worth watching twice. So in chronological order:


I am getting the notion that there are only two types of movies in civilians world. Great movies and Horrible moviesl No gray areas. It is indeed possible to be so overly critical at times at the expense of enjoying a movie for the sum of it's parts. Your ranking of the Star Trek movies is very similar to your ranking of Star Wars. You hate ROTJ because it is not ESB. Likewise, you hate the succeding Star Trek films because they are not Wrath of Khan. i am not saying you should lower your standards but it is indeed possible to be too critical. We agree that the PT movies are horrible because they are universally hailed around her as being bad films. Not because they couldn't live up to the OT. If the PT films were decently made and didn;t insult my intelligence, I would be fine with them, even if they weren't as good as the OT movies.

I will say is that I still believe my ranking of Star Trek movie is a fair assesment of those movies. I agree with V-Wing that the bottom half and lower half are correct. Individual ranking in those halves are subject to the viewers taste.

Actor 3 really shouldn't count dry.gif . I know of Lurch. He did indeed star in that Ewoks adventure movies. Is it a Star Wars movies? It is debateable whether it is even part of the Star Wars mythology. I did say Star Wars Movies in my original post so i guess semantically it is right. Though I think most of us here would say it is a stretch.

I wonder what Chef's answer is.
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#50 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 10:39 AM

Oh boy. You've done it now Mike. Well, this is between you and Civ this time, I'm bowing out lol. But going back to the question. I didn't realize that voices counted. Even so, the only one I sorta heard of was Actor 2, but I thought he had to be a real actor in the movie, not a voiceover. Oh well.
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#51 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 11:40 AM

QUOTE
Oh boy. You've done it now Mike. Well, this is between you and Civ this time, I'm bowing out lol. But going back to the question. I didn't realize that voices counted. Even so, the only one I sorta heard of was Actor 2, but I thought he had to be a real actor in the movie, not a voiceover. Oh well.


What do you think, James Earl jones did for Darth Vader? Voice-actors are actor's too.
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#52 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 11:46 AM

I don't know. In the Kevin Bacon game, I don't think you can count voice actors so basically i don't think of them when I think of who's in a movie. Including JEJ. But it's ok, I just wasn't thinking along those lines for this question.
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#53 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 01:18 PM

QUOTE
I don't know. In the Kevin Bacon game, I don't think you can count voice actors so basically i don't think of them when I think of who's in a movie. Including JEJ. But it's ok, I just wasn't thinking along those lines for this question.


Not to be argumentative {God forbid} but do you consider David Prowse or Frank Oz are actors in Star Wars. Or Warwick Davis even though he didn't speak a word. Just curious.
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#54 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 09:09 PM

QUOTE (Mike Mac from NYU @ Apr 7 2004, 10:33 AM)
I am getting the notion that there are only two types of movies in civilians world.  Great movies and Horrible moviesl No gray areas.


Not at all. But it's not too often you hear people rant and/or rave about films they thing are 'OK.'

Rah, ZOOLANDER! Go go go, OCEAN'S ELEVEN!

Really, what would be the point?

That said, those STAR TREK films are all terrible, not because they are not WRATH OF KHAN, but because each and every one of them was boring and a waste of good money. You should read my criticisms of the TREK films. Not all are full of negativity, and I acknowledge strong points. I also do not, as you suggest, compare them all with WRATH OF KHAN. I belittle them all on their own grounds, with only one exception.

SEARCH FOR SPOCK *needs* to be compared with WOK since, like the PT has done to the OT, it undermined the integrity of the storyline. Great lives often have great deaths, and Spock could not have died better. An equal blend of emotion and logic, the completion of a life-long search for self. And arch-rival McCoy tried to stop him, out of docterly wisdom but also out of brotherly love. Kirk, too, was forced to realize that was his 'Kobayashi Maru,' a no-win situation where a terrible loss was imossible to escape. It was good screenwiting, true to story, plot, and character. Moreso it was a strong 'human' moment of the kind TREK aspired to, and it needed to be left the way it was. Every use of Spock after that movie is a goddamned kick in the nuts.

(And if you think they didn't kill off Kirk's son to duplicate the emotional impact of having resurrected Spock, or to forestall criticism (like mine, above) of the very act of resurrection, or whatever, then you haven't thought too hard about the introduction of Kim Catrall to UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY. It's tv writing, where they try to do something big while maintaining continuity. It's the sort of reasoning behind writing in an alcohlic uncle rather than revealing an alcohol problem in the main cast. See, they get to do the alcoholism show, and then next week they can forget all about it. But enough about that.)


The strongest argument that can be made for any of them is for THE VOYAGE HOME, because fans enjoyed seeing the characters in a familiar context, and because the jokes worked. The dialogue isn't overly forced, the story is lame but not brain-dead (a bit of typical TREK deus ex machina to save the admiral from a firing squad, but whatever), and let's face it, if you were a fan of STAR TREK you probably felt it was high time for a comedy. Half the tv episodes were comedies, so it stood to reason one of the films ought to be, too. In fact, my complaint about at least half of the NG films is not that they were not WRATH OF KHAN (though NEMESIS tried to be), but that not one of them was VOYAGE HOME. I found it silly, and embarrassing, and I'd never watch it again, but I do reecognize its worth over several of the others.


The others are graded on their own, not in the context of WOK, precisely because there is no continuity between them. They can't hurt WOK by associtaion, since they are stand-alone episodes (unlike SFS, which relied heavily on the viewer having seen WOK. So, on their own merit (lack of), I consider them boring and bad. I mean, really, they came out with all the fanfare and critical response of the last three James Bond films. Does anybody care for another installment of either franchise? No way, not even the video games are any good!

NEMESIS, for instance, reclassified WING COMMANDER from Godawful to mere awful. Anyone who liked FIRST CONTACT needs to watch it again. It's the best Next Gen film, and it is simply terrible. And there will never be a place in my heart for FINAL FRONTIER. I would rather watch my mother have an abortion.

Understand that I saw every STAR TREK film in the theatre on its opening weekend, so strong is my hope that they will redeem themselves. Opening night of NEMESIS had a house of about 35% capacity. The faith is not strong even among the inner core of TREK fans, so don't be putting it all on me!


-----------------------


Of course actor 3 doesn't count! But I say THE EWOK ADVENTURE is more a STAR WARS movie than THE PHANTOM MENACE, and I mean it. Sure, it's awful, but it makes no bones about being a stupid kid's movie, while TPM tries to be a part of something it simply is not not not.

And of course voice actors count. Was Ellen in FINDING NEMO? Sure! My complaint about the 'crossover list' would be that at least one of those actors didn't even make the credits, so it's trivia not a lot of guys could be expected to know. Whish is some of the fun of it, and more power to me for getting them both! (jump up and down, gloat) And of course, for finding number three, who counts in the very precise context of pointing out that no-one got him, but in no other context but that.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 07 April 2004 - 09:24 PM

"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#55 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 10:11 PM

To civilian


"NEMESIS, for instance, reclassified WING COMMANDER from Godawful to mere awful. Anyone who liked FIRST CONTACT needs to watch it again. It's the best Next Gen film, and it is simply terrible. And there will never be a place in my heart for FINAL FRONTIER. I would rather watch my mother have an abortion."

Watched First Contact a total of seven times. Actually gets better on repeat viewing. I am sorry I have to disagree, the only real awful Star Trek film was Insurrection.

The lack of interest in Star Trek: Nemesis had more to do with the failures of Insurrection and the end of the DS9. Voyager and Enterprise failed to grow or stimulate the Trekkies. I think in order to revive Star Trek I think a new more bolder series needs to be created. I actually have an pitch idea for a new Star Trek series. interested in hearing it, civilian!!


My film watching habits are pretty lose. I mean there are very few movies I will find unwatchable. {Spider-man & ATOC are plain unwatchable to me}. I will sometimes watch movies that are bad or mediocre if they have ecertain scenes sections that I find brillian or ideas that I feel I can use. For example, I consider Hannibal one of the most disappointing movies I ever saw. That being said, I watch it repeatedly because in it's first 1:30 minutes it has some brilliant ideas that I enjoy and feel can examine closely. I usually watch that movie in parts and never watch the last 30 minutes. It's kind of like this Jazz musician friend of mine who will listen to a 5 second phrase of a tune just because it has this great chord change in it. The rest of the tune may be mediocre but because it has that one great chord change that tune know becomes interesting.
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#56 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 10:31 PM

Ok, Ok, voice actors count! Geez. Just saying I wasn't thinking along those lines when you said the actor was actually in the movie, and so the answer threw me a bit. And Civ, I gotta agree with Mike here (happens more often than not huh lol), watched First Contact a lot, and I really think it's a good movie. I agree with you about Nemesis. The funny thing is, the first time I saw it, I liked it, but the second time it was just boring and pointless. I noticed all of the bad points of it, and the ridiculousness of the ending (like I said, you could kinda tell that Brent Spiner wrote it). Basically, Wrath of Khan, Undiscovered Country, and First Contact are my favorite Star Trek films. Voyage Home was good-natured, innocent fun, but it's not in the class of those in my opinion. Generations had its moments, but wasn't that good, and Search for Spock loses points with me, other than the resurrection of Spock, which I could deal with actually, just because they killed off Kirk's son, which I thought was ridiculous. The others basically all crap.

Also Mike, not like I think it's the greatest movie in the world, but Spiderman's unwatchable to you? I find it's a good background movie, like when I'm doing something else and have the TV on and it's on HBO, I'll put it on. I can't believe someone could detest it that much.

There's one movie I just saw that I think I'd find unwatchable, only I'll never watch it again so I don't know: Lost in Translation. Talk about a disappointment. I understood everything she was going for but I think she executed horribly. And you know what, I feel bad Murray lost cause he wanted it, but he did not deserve it over Penn. Not at all. There was 1 part in the movie that was good, and a couple that had potential to be good, and that was it. It was a good student film, but a horrible professional one.
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#57 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 10:33 PM

QUOTE
And there will never be a place in my heart for FINAL FRONTIER. I would rather watch my mother have an abortion."


Now I know your being overly critical. Final Frontier is not in that league. At worst Final Frontier is a mediocre "two star" movie. What should someone watch an abortion instead of:

1. Swept Away {Madonna's Version}
2. Gigli
3. Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure
4. Attack of the Clones
5.. Ishtar
6. un-MSTtified "Manos: The Hands of Fate"
7. Scooby-Doo movie
8. The Postman
9. Alien: Resurrection
10. God's and Generals {waste your life in 3 hours}
11. Batman and Robin
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#58 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 10:40 PM

Oh, come on, Bill and Ted was fun. That's also just an innocent fun movie. I can't believe you would put it in that league. What I would put in that league however is Deuce Bigalow: Male Gigolo, and possibly Mars Attacks. Any abortion is better than those 2.
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#59 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 03:49 AM

QUOTE (Vwing @ Apr 7 2004, 10:31 PM)
Basically, Wrath of Khan, Undiscovered Country, and First Contact are my favorite Star Trek films.

Well, we're not too far apart here. I also liked WRATH OF KHAN. wink.gif

Like I said, UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY is not terrible, but it is compromised by corny Shakespear referencing and by Kim Catrall. Kirk's stint in the Gulag, and his bold prison break, are sorta nonsense, but I can deal with them. I don't think you're a fool for liking this one.

But FIRST CONTACT? Seriously? You actually liked the "B" story, with Zefram Cochrane and the warp drive generator? You actually liked Alfre Woodard? You liked the ridiculous holodeck speakeasy? Apart from Warf killing those guys on the surface of the ship, and the appearance of the doctor from VOYAGER, I don't think there was one damn thing good about that movie.

Oh -- the first view of the post-Borg Earth from space was cool, but the nonsense that they had altered time but it had not altered them was just a bunch of hooey. When I heard that, I just wanted to slingshot myself around the sun and get those hours of my life back.


Of Mike Mac's abortion movies, I thnk ISHTAR is in the category of "so bad it's good, because the songs are more awful than they had hoped they would be, and because the jokes have literally no humour in them. And of course I endorse the first BILL AD TED FILM, but not the sequel.

To replace those two I would add WATERBOY and CAREER OPPORTUNITIES.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#60 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 11:14 PM

Civil, what newspaper/magzine do you write for? I'm assuming you're some sort of column writer or journalist.
Oh SMEG. What the smeggity smegs has smeggins done? He smeggin killed me. - Lister of Smeg, space bum
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