[civilian_number_two]

Whether Osama were dead or alive, America would be as safe as it has always been. The acts of Sept 11 2001 - government conspiracy, military-industial coverup, or genuine terrorist plot by Islamic extremists - show pretty clearly that America is pretty safe, simply by their uniqueness. Terrorism is a way of life in the MIddle East, and not uncommon in Europe. America had one case of allegedly foreign terrorism, and suddenly there is this fiction of a worldwide terrorist conspiracy. In at least one version of this Orwellian fiction, bin Laden is the leader of this unified international terror regime, the "Axis of Evil." The fact is that Osama bin Laden has never been linked to those attacks, and yes, I believe he has been dead for years. There is no conspiracy. A conspiracy would be better organized. And while we look for a man we can literally never find, we can justify perpetual war. It's actually quite awesome how accurately Orwell happened to predict that particular scenario, even in this age of information he could never have foreseen.

[Grinov]

in fact it could be the next reality TV eviction-based contest show...

'American Osama' it could be you...
why not, people don't mind being lied to as long as you entertain them.

Who do you think will be the next best Osama?

[Slade]

There's always simply Al-Quaeda... Does any other terrorist organization ever do anything these days?

Civ: I dunno how fictionalized Bin Laden is, as he didn't claim responsibility for the 9/11 attacks, he just endorsed them. If they were fabricating him, they would hopefully keep him consistant and keep the lies in their "facts" instead of their... erm... lies?

[civilian_number_two]

It's possible early responses endorsing the attacks were the real Osama, and later videotapes claiming responsibility were fake. I think it's great to have him endorse but not actually take responsibility. After all, that appears to have given the US the permission of its people to invade Iraq. On the grounds of course that Saddam was also supporting those same terrorists, as part of the evil Axis. I liked the comparisons the media folks kept making to Pearl Harbour. You all remember Pearl Harbour, right, not the shitty movie, but the military base in a US Protectorate, not a state of the union? It's widely remembered as a foreign attack on US soil, despite not being that at all. And do you recall how the planes that attacked that military target flew over civilians on its way? That's right. The US response was to bomb civilian targets, cities with millions of people living in them. The US military has no morality with respect to civilians in enemy countries, for all the talk about freedom from terror.

[Slade]

I thought that the US had already used force to oust the Hawaiian government and install a US puppet government that would allow the US to annex the state by then...

Well I'll be damned, it wasn't admitted as a state until 1959. Propaganda FTW!

[Jordan]

US knew of the attack too. All the main flag ships were out on 'routine' patrol that day when the Japanese navel air force attacked.

Prior to Pearl Harbour, I think the American population cared little for the troubles in europe. Pearl Harbour fueled the will to fight. How could the US NOT find the entire Japanese fleet on their multiple radar stations?

This post has been edited by Jordan: 26 September 2006 - 03:43 PM

[Grinov]

US knew of the attack too. All the main flag ships were out on 'routine' patrol that day when the Japanese navel air force attacked.

Prior to Pearl Harbour, I think the American population cared little for the troubles in europe. Pearl Harbour fueled the will to fight. How could the US NOT find the entire Japanese fleet on their multiple radar stations?

Because they thought it was a flock of birds, god, haven’t you seen the movie?

[Jordan]

LOL no. I hate ben affleck.

[J m HofMarN]

Even the best estimates for Al Qaeda put their chain of command at maybe 500 individuals. We have 600 in Guantanamo and various foreign prisons around the world being tortured for information they can't possibly know even if most of them weren't innocent anyhow. That's one wonderful thing about the war on terror, you're now guilty until you either die or get jacked out of jail by the supreme court or something. In the same way, Osama Bin Laden is clearly guilty, and even the spectre of his involvement is enough to send people to the Republican box on their ballots.

How often have you all heard on the news "Police have not ruled out terrorism" or how often have you heard some moron look at whatever is going wrong and honestly suggest terrorist involvement? The government dosn't even have to have their bullshit color code anymore because the prols are doing it for them. Even the death of great satan won't stop people from cowering in fear.

[Grinov]

How often have you all heard on the news "Police have not ruled out terrorism" or how often have you heard some moron look at whatever is going wrong and honestly suggest terrorist involvement? The government dosn't even have to have their bullshit color code anymore because the prols are doing it for them. Even the death of great satan won't stop people from cowering in fear.

Without light, there is darkness.
Without knowledge, there is ignorance.
Without order, there is chaos.
Without truth, there is fear.

[Slade]

Order and chaos are more part of a continuum, not two finite (albeit analog) states like light and dark...

Rather, darkness depends on the absense of light; it isn't its own element...

[Grinov]

Order and chaos are more part of a continuum, not two finite (albeit analog) states like light and dark...

Rather, darkness depends on the absense of light; it isn't its own element...

Precisely my point, in the absents of Order/Light there is Chaos/Darkness, the former can only happen when there is a lack of the prior, like the absents of Government will lead to Anarchy.

[Slade]

But within order lies disorder, and in chaos, order. Seek ye the eye of the hurricane. Darkness is the absence of light, while you can have varying degrees of order in a system. Some people like anarchy (I'm not particularly fond of its doctrines), and it's not fair to pair chaos with darkness.

Regardless, I too, am tired of this constant fear mongering. The worst part is that trying to end terrorism through brute force just breeds more terrorism, so we really will never be rid of it. We have our straw-man enemy who is more immortal than "communism" (a.k.a. the state capitalism of the Soviet Union), so I can't even say "Who will the two minutes hate be about once there's no more terrorism?"

Military-industrial complex for the loss.

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

Osama looks like Scottie Pippen. Or vice-versa.

Hmmmmmm...