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The Clones

#1 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 06:12 PM

Boy I have comeback with a vengeance!!!

Vxw Has rekindled it. Thanks, dude cool.gif

I have a little rant I must preform about the Clones and their place in Star Wars mythos.

1. The only reason to even have the clones is that Obi-Wan and luke mention it for about one lin in ANH. "You're father fought in the clone wars" And that's it! That is the last we ever here about the clone wars in the entire originally trilogy. {even in the screenplays and novel adaptations} As a matter of fact only us die hard Star Wars nuts even realize that there were such a thing as the Clone Wars. The casual Star Wars fan probably doesn't even remember the line. You can make a strong argument that clone wars might not be that big a part of the Star Wars mythos. I mean all we know is that it was a war that Obi-Wan and Anakin fought in... In fact the whole purpose of mentioning the clone wars was to show that Obi-Wan and Anakin knew each other long ago. That's really what the point of the clone wars is in relation to the story. I mean it could easily have been called the "Mutant-HellBeats from Endor" wars or the "Battle Droid" Wars or whatever. It doesn't take away the real significance that those wars were a stage for the meeting of Anakin and Obi-Wan. So i don't think the "clone premise" is not necissarily a major part or even an essential part to the Star Wars story. You could have the PT without the clones. The important story in the PT is the conflict between the Emperor, Obi-Wan and Anakin. Anything else is just window dressing for the real story.

2. "Deep Breath" MAKING THE CLONES BECOME THE STORMTROOPER IS THE WORST IDEA LUCAS HAS COME UP WITH YET!!!!!!. :angry: "Deep Breath".
My reasons:

1. First of all the explanation of the stormtroopers was not something us Star Wars fans were desperate to know. I along with everyone else assumed that they were just average joes that got conscripted into service via a draft. Or better yet people that saw the opportunity to excel in todays Imperial Army. {You know the "BE ALL THAT YOU CAN BE' and saving for intergalactic college type of thing} smile.gif That stuff happens in real life armies. Therefore I don't think an explanation of the stormtroopers is really necessary or even warranted.

2. What is the message that Lucas is trying to portray here? That the armies of oppressive regimes are just a bunch of inhuman soulless badguys that you can be justifiably killed? Don't worry kids, it's okay for Luke, Anakin and Padme to kill all those clones/stormtroopers because they aren't really humans, they are clones? As evil as Hitler's regime was, the Nazi soldiers that fought for him were still regular people with families and dreams and were not unlike you and me. The tragedy was that the Allies in defeating Hitler, killed millions of these young people. That's the tragedy of war, soldiers die from both sides. Hell in Iraq, there a Iraqi children being orphaned because their daddies died fightiong the US soldiers to protect Saddam's regime. Making the stormtrooper clones trivializes war and makes a bad example to future generations. It's equally upsetting when you consider that Lucas presented the very real concept in Darth Vader, that the line between good and evil can be very tenous. People can change from good to evil easily. So why is Lucas presenting such a simplistic view with the clone soldiers.

Boy that felt good. By the way, my wife and unborn baby boy are doing fine smile.gif . I am eagerly awaiting birth sometime in April-May. We are still undecided on names, any suggestions?. Sorry, my wife says Vader, Anakin, Darth, Palpatine, Wedge and Lando are out of the question. sad.gif

2.
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#2 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 07:56 PM

Well if you named him Wedge they'd probably give him wedgies all the time. What about Ben? Normal name, and an homage to SW. Or Ackbar smile.gif

But I agree with basically everything you said. I'll disagree slightly in that when I watched it I did imagine the Clone Wars involving clones of some kind. But I agree that I don't think any of us cared about an explanation for Stormtroopers. Just as none of us cared about an explanation for Boba Fett, or the literal translation of Yoda's "He is too old" line (especially since the kid's 9). As many people on this board have said, it seems like Lucas is taking all the small details from the OT and putting them in the prequels as main plot devices, and yet neglects 2 HUGE plot points:

1. Yoda training Obi-Wan. Ok this isn't huge, but it is exceedingly annoying. I'm sorry, the explanation "he trained him when he was 5" doesn't work. He specifically states after Yoda says Luke is too reckless "Was I any different when you trained me?" You know what, every 4 year old is a little bit reckless. He meant was I any different when I was your individual pupil. That was a horrible oversight by Lucas, adding the unnecessary character of Qui-Gon Jinn. Of course, all that just adds to the fact of TPM being an unnecessary movie, but I won't dwell on that.

2. Anakin's relationship with Palpatine. Here's what we have in the first two movies to suggest their relationship. TPM: And young Skywalker. We will watch your career with great interest. AOTC: One 2 minute scene between them THAT WAS AN AFTERTHOUGHT BY LUCAS and Anakin saying the Chancellor is a wise man, or that he wasn't corrupt or whatever. But think about it. Lucas put the scene in as an afterthought. HE FORGOT TO ESTABLISH THIS POINT! This is perhaps, besides the Obi-Wan-Anakin and Anakin-Padme relationship (both of which were executed horribly anyway) the most important relationship in the prequel trilogy and he didn't even put it in the original script. That's saying something right there.
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#3 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 09:32 PM

QUOTE (Vwing @ Mar 28 2004, 07:56 PM)
AOTC: One 2 minute scene between them THAT WAS AN AFTERTHOUGHT BY LUCAS and Anakin saying the Chancellor is a wise man, or that he wasn't corrupt or whatever.

"he seems like a nice guy, not the 'start an empire and rule as an iron fisted emporer with some cool looking guards' type that you usually run into on these missions."

he may as well have said.
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#4 User is offline   Sagacity Icon

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 10:34 PM

You mean that was just a pick-up shot, added in later and not in the script? blink.gif
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#5 User is offline   jxw Icon

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 02:24 PM

QUOTE (Mike Mac from NYU @ Mar 28 2004, 06:12 PM)
2. "Deep Breath" MAKING THE CLONES BECOME THE STORMTROOPER IS THE WORST IDEA LUCAS HAS COME UP WITH YET!!!!!!. :angry:  "Deep Breath".

The worst idea? Are you sure? There's some good competition in there. Although I have no problem with a war involving clones as such. Why not? It was mentioned in the first film. If Obiwan and Anakin fought together, then they must have had a common enemy; since clones were mentioned, that's fine. The actual execution of the idea leaves something to be desired.

QUOTE
What is the message that Lucas is trying to portray here? That the armies of oppressive regimes are just a bunch of inhuman soulless badguys that you can be justifiably killed? Don't worry kids, it's okay for Luke, Anakin and Padme to kill all those clones/stormtroopers because they aren't really humans, they are clones?


Yup, that's it exactly. He says something along those lines on the voiceover to AOTC. For some reason, Lucas has actually listened to the jokes about Luke being tried for war crimes after wiping out loads of people in a fantasy film and taken them seriously. He actually mentioned those disgusting insect-like creatures who (supposedly) designed the Death Star, saying that it wasn't a problem that they were all killed, because they were just a bunch of insects.

At this point, I realised that Lucas has lost all touch with reality. I find myself wondering if Skywalker Ranch actually consists of nothing but a series of blue rooms, where Lucas "sees" walls, furniture etc when he walks around. Presumably he could also have discussions about the direction of the films with the "people" that he can add into the room later.

For your unborn son, well my cat is called Artoo... Worth a thought?
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#6 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 08:50 PM

to jxw
QUOTE
For your unborn son, well my cat is called Artoo... Worth a thought?


Hmm.. I wonder if I could get Arturro past my wife smile.gif No better yet how about Richard Duece as first name and middle name.Yeah, that could work.!!! Thanks for the idea!! tongue.gif


You know, jxw. I am wondering more if Lucas has multiple personality disorder. On one hand he dismisses his critics and makes the movies regardless about whether the methods he uses are right. And on the other hand he panders to them completely as case in point to the stormtrooper/clone thing. It follows with his removal of violence, adding of scatological humor, his "N-sync" clone Anakin. It is all pandering to various critics. The only person he doesn't pander to and completely ignores are us loyal Star Wars fans who created and built his franchise. You get the feeling that Lucas never listened to any of the Star Wars fans or read the Star Wars books that continues his trilogy.

It bother sme in that if there is anybody who should be above pandering to critics it should be Lucas. I mean he has enough money and clout in Hollywood to create the movie any damn way he wants :angry: !!! What a friggin waste
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#7 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 09:11 PM

ther's just no way, the storm troopers are clones... they have too much personality in the OT.

the empire just ripped off the uniforms. that's all, at least that will be all if GL wants to see his next birthday!!!
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#8 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 09:36 PM

QUOTE (Vwing @ Mar 28 2004, 07:56 PM)
Just as none of us cared about an explanation for Boba Fett, or the literal translation of Yoda's "He is too old" line (especially since the kid's 9).

Yes yes yes. Yoda delivered that line like it was an excuse, not a reason. He didn't want to train Luke because he didn't want Luke to get killed, he didn't want to get pulled back in, whatever. But hearing him say it in Phantom Menace made me barf. I literally barfed all over everyone for a good forty minutes. And all during the pod race, I had been shitting myself, so really, them folks should have known better to stay in their seats, if you ask me.

Anyway, everything good to say about lucas's ethics has been said expertly by David Brin in that wonderful article he wrote back in 99. And everything worth saying about Lucas being a hack sellout has been said by Gary Kurtz in that embittered post-JEDI interview.

It's all on the web. Seek, find, read, enjoy.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#9 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 10:04 PM

Wait, I'm sorry if I misunderstood this, was Brin's article positive saying Lucas had good ethics or negative saying he had bad ones?
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#10 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 10:52 PM

Disregard my last post, I read Brin's article. I have to say I disagreed with almost everything he said. In fact, it was so strong that I actually sent him an email, even though it was written 4 years ago. Hope he reads it. But really, it was well-written and I understood his points, but I just really didn't think they were valid. And I've heard Kurtz's argument, which I'm sure is half-truth and half him being a cranky Hollywood idiot.
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#11 User is offline   Supes Icon

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Posted 31 March 2004 - 07:39 AM

QUOTE (Mike Mac from NYU @ Mar 28 2004, 06:12 PM)
1. The only reason to even have the clones is that Obi-Wan and luke mention it for about one lin in ANH. "You're father fought in the clone wars" And that's it! That is the last we ever here about the clone wars in the entire originally trilogy. {even in the screenplays and novel adaptations}

Actually, we hear it mentioned again about 5 minutes later when the image of Leia projected from Artoo says, "General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars." But aside from this obvious oversight tongue.gif your point is well made. biggrin.gif

I didn't really have an issue with the storm troopers being clones, but I would have preferred the story arc deal with the concept of cloning an army as being the abhorent issues and not ending up with the "good guys" using that army.

Quite simply, whoever the clones were they should have been on the side of "evil" because cloning needed to be stopped by the OT. I agree with barend in that the OT storm troopers are not clones. Perhaps there may be some remenants of them, but it just doesn't gel throught the entire series.

Mike Mac, I also think you should consider the name Trent. It's a fine name. No, no Star Wars relation, but a fine name none the less. biggrin.gif
Luminous beings are we... not this crude matter.
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#12 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 02:42 PM

I picked up the lucas love-fest know as StarWasrInsider the other day, and there's an article about the clones. one of the first things the art department did, on their way of securing a GL "ok" sharpie notation, was to take an Ep 2 clone trooper, an Ep 4 storm trooper, and morph them in photoshop.

that being good enough to get them started, is there any logical way to "tween" the scripts? in the web videos we've seen how they're taking this approach with hairstyles and costuming. maybe every other word substitute? what's my obvious answer here? the movie's going to suck regardless? ok. just checking.


on clones again, there's mention of some being "smarter" than others. any cloning of women I wonder? what IS their motivation for living btw?
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#13 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 02:59 PM

Yeah but why clone the same guy!!!!!

I mean diversify a little!!!!
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#14 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 04:28 PM

I agree entirely. depending on who ordered the clones, you'd think there would be some backstory on his/her choice. If a true jedi placed the order for the cause of good, why not clone one of high midichlorians? if palpatine ordered the clones, I guess he'd want an army that'd be easy to manipulate? so, you'd clone a capable boob? (young boba laugh here: huh, huh, huh)

maybe ben's line in ep 4 about them being such wonderful marksmen is along the lines of the wonderful coruscant sky chase witicisms. smile.gif (huh, huh, huh)
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#15 User is offline   Supes Icon

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 11:47 PM

QUOTE (Mike Mac from NYU @ Apr 7 2004, 02:59 PM)
Yeah but why clone the same guy!!!!!

I mean diversify a little!!!!

It's a simple notion that Lucas has worked from, but the reason they clone just one guy is because they are cloning one of the best fighters in the galaxy. The concept being that all their troopers will be physically on par with Jango. Sure they dull the intellect that makes him so dangerous in order to better "contol" them, but that's the basic principle.

Do I like it? Not on your life. It's just another appalling example of the simple approach that Lucas now takes to story telling. No real imagination and no credit for the intelligence that his characters should be able to display.

You also didn't tell me what you thought of Trent as a name Mike. sad.gif

This post has been edited by Supes: 07 April 2004 - 11:48 PM

Luminous beings are we... not this crude matter.
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