[Chefelf]

Family, friends defend soldier in abuse photos
'She follows orders,' sister says

Friday, May 7, 2004 Posted: 2257 GMT (0657 HKT)



Pfc. Lynndie England points at a hooded and naked Iraqi prisoner at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

FOUNTAIN, West Virginia (CNN) -- A female Army reservist featured prominently in several photos of prisoners in Iraq was just following instructions when she posed in the pictures, a sister and a friend of the woman said Friday.

"Certain people in the Army told her to do what she did. She follows orders," said Jessica Klinestiver, sister of Pfc. Lynndie England.

England, 21, is among eight soldiers being investigated by the Army in connection with apparent abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.

One photo shows England holding a leash attached to a prone prisoner's neck. In another photo, England and her fellow company member, Spc. Charles Graner of Uniontown, Pennsylvania, are shown smiling and making thumbs-up gestures as they stand near naked Iraqi prisoners.

Asked why her sister would be smiling in such pictures, Klinestiver implied that England was merely posing, and "she's smiling at whoever's behind the camera."

However, neither her sister, a friend nor her family attorney would discuss whether they knew who took the photos, or why or how they were taken.

Klinestiver and Destiny Goin, who described herself as England's best friend, appeared with attorney Roy G. Hardy at a news conference in England's hometown. The trio said they called the news conference to ask reporters to leave the family alone, and to offset public impressions left by the photos of England, who is now at Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

"We just want to make sure you guys realize she's a human being," Hardy said as several family photos were spread out on a table. The family pictures included one of England with a friend after a high school prom in 2001.

Another showed Graner and England in casual civilian clothes on a beach vacation in Virginia.

Hardy said England is five months pregnant, and that Graner is the father.

"She did have a relationship with him," Hardy said. He would not comment on the status of the couple now beyond saying, "There is a current relationship, although I don't think they get to spend much time together."

Hardy said England's family is in the process of hiring another attorney specifically to defend England against any charges brought by the Army.

"As of today, the military has not given her a lawyer, so we are going to get one for her," Hardy said.

No charges have been filed against England. Hardy said she is free to move about on the sprawling Fort Bragg complex and may leave the post to visit nearby Fayetteville, North Carolina, but has chosen not to do so because of fears that media would trail her.

Asked if he expected charges to come, Hardy said, "We are hoping not but we believe she may be ... They've charged six other people [among the eight publicly identified as suspects] that haven't shown up in quite as many photographs as she has, so we're wondering what's taking them so long, why are they leaving her out?"

Hardy said England joined the reserves to get money for college, and aspired to be a meteorologist.

"She was an administrative assistant and personnel clerk [with her unit]. That's all she's been trained in by the military," Hardy said.

England and Graner are members of the 372nd Military Police Company, which was sent to Iraq to help guard Iraqi prisoners.

Klinestiver and Goin repeatedly said that they believed England was doing what someone else had told her to do when she posed for the pictures inside Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, Iraq.

"She was asked to appear in the photos," Klinestiver said, without identifying who might have made such a request.

"She follows orders. That's what her job in the military is to do -- follow orders of her superior officers," Klinestiver said, adding that she is proud of her sister and "anybody else in the 327th."

Klinestiver and Goin used words such as "good-hearted," kind, dependable and athletic to describe England and said publicity surrounding the photos is unfairly portraying England.

"She's a caring person," said Goin.

Hardy added, "You can't see everything in a photo. ... That's not the type of person she is. We think that when this all comes to light, she will not be depicted as she's being depicted now."

Sorry to bogart yet another day about Iraqi abuse but I can't even BELIEVE this defense for the photos taken.

My favorite line:

Asked why her sister would be smiling in such pictures, Klinestiver implied that England was merely posing, and "she's smiling at whoever's behind the camera."

Ah, yes. It makes sense. I'm sure she wasn't enjoying herself at all.

Did I mention that I'm not "technically" American? My mother's family is all from Italy and my Dad's side is purely French-Canadian. I'll claim either of those countries as my own if no one minds.

[Amber-Nicole]

Nate, do not be ashamed to be an American because of things you had no control over. I'm an American. I do not support Iraqi abuse. We aren't all like that, you know.

[Just your average movie goer]

That photo is truly awful. I can't believe how American soldiers can treat this like a game. Maybe they think humiliating and degrading other human beings is funny...

The defense is pretty weak too. So she's supposed to follow orders?

"Stand in this picture and point crudely at the prisoners while grinning like a moron." is not a standard army order. I think you could quite safely decline to follow that order. I don't think anyone could get court-martialed for breaking an order like that.

And she looks pretty damn happy in the picture too.

Hardy added, "You can't see everything in a photo. ...

Too true. You can't see all the other American soldiers participating in this. That's all.

Amber-Nicole, Chefelf can claim to be French-Canadian if he wants to. If he plans to travel in any foreign countries, I would highly recommend it.

And for any Americans who wish to go to Australia, definitely say you're from Canada. If you want to know who portrays such a negative stereotype of Americans, it is people in American administration and American television.

In the flesh, I've met three Americans that I got to know fairly well, while I was teaching English in Tokyo. They worked for the same company as me.

And one of them was a really nice guy and I still keep in contact with him now.

[Amber-Nicole]

He can claim to be whatever he wants to be. But come on guys, don't sterotype us. Personally, I don't want people thinking I'm a bitch just because I'm from America. Every person in the army does not point and laugh at nakie Iraqis, and every American out there is not a complete moron.

[jyd]

this is common of alot of media representations. most media stories about certain crazy individuals are just that, stories about individuals, it shames me to know that i am stereotyped to be like that skank whore. its just a few people who now have probably been dismissed and humiliated, now how does that have anything to do with me

[Heccubus]

"We just want to make sure you guys realize she's a human being,"

Ah, there's your problem right there...
And Amber does have a point. Just because your army has a couple of assholes in it does not necessarily mean America is full of those types and Nate should relinquish his nationality. About four years ago I would have said differently, but thanks to hanging around with these wacky folks I'm not quite as anti-American as I used to be. I would, however, reccommend that everybody wear a Canadian flag somewhere on themselves when they travel to foreign countries, as they are less likely to be robbed that way. Our money is worthless.

[Chefelf]

I just got an anonymous email about this topic. I'd just like to post the email and my response here. Here is the email:

The world is outraged because some of our troops embarresed some Iraqi
pisioners.

These are the same people that kill American tourists and troops celebrating while they drag their bodies through the streets,the same ones who hate America so they feel good when they blow up our buildings and aircraft.

The same people we send aid to and rebuild their country.

I am not the least bit embarressed by the actions of  Pfc. Lynndie England, try to remember while she was embarrsing a few of the captives their comrads are out looking for hostages and ambushing convoys, killing civilians while our troops
die trying to help them.

Give her your support,don't let the world constantly tell the US what we do wrong
while they do whatever they want to our people.These people hate us and do not think any American has the right to live,they do not deserve our sympathy.

Point #1

The world is outraged because some of our troops embarresed some Iraqi
pisioners.

Embarrassed? Some of the things were merely humiliation tactics (which are still not allowed through the Geneva Convention) but there is plenty of indication of torture, sexual abuse and numerous deaths. Would you consider this "embarrassment"? I certainly think this warrants a little harsher description than "embarrassment".

Point #2

These are the same people that kill American tourists and troops celebrating while they drag their bodies through the streets

Wrong. These people share a common nationality, ancestry and skin color as people that have killed American tourists and troops. Are you faulting them for killing American troops? This is a war. For those unfamiliar with war, when you are being attacked by an opposing army it is fairly standard practice to retaliate. Their other option was to simply stand back and be mowed down by American soldiers.

Point #3

the same ones who hate America so they feel good when they blow up our buildings and aircraft.

Wrong again. Terrorists are terrorist. Claiming an entire race shares the same beliefs as a handful of al- Qaeda is extremely closed-minded and racist. Also, name me four al-Qaeda members who were Iraqi and I will give you a cookie.

Point #4

I am not the least bit embarressed by the actions of  Pfc. Lynndie England, try to remember while she was embarrsing a few of the captives their comrads are out looking for hostages and ambushing convoys, killing civilians while our troops
die trying to help them.

There's the "embarrassing" word again. Do you honestly believe that torture and humiliation to Iraqi prisoners of war is justified because of the actions of unrelated Iraqis? By your logic, random African Americans in San Fransisco should be bound and humiliated if another African American in Los Angeles commits a crime.

Point #5

Give her your support,don't let the world constantly tell the US what we do wrong while they do whatever they want to our people.These people hate us and do not think any American has the right to live,they do not deserve our sympathy.

I will not, under any circumstances, give her my support. "Following orders" holds no water in this situation. She could have spoken up about such orders and been a hero. This is not Nazi Germany where a soldier would face execution for such actions. Instead she chose to exert her power by committing these disgusting acts against prisoners of war.

People know right from wrong. If she was "just following orders" then why does she look so damn happy in the picture? Why are all the soldiers who were "just following orders" giving the thumbs-up and smiling like idiots in every picture?

She gets no sympathy from me. She is a weak coward and she, and all the others involved in this mess, deserve any and all punishment they receive for their actions.

[Chefelf]

He can claim to be whatever he wants to be. But come on guys, don't sterotype us. Personally, I don't want people thinking I'm a bitch just because I'm from America. Every person in the army does not point and laugh at nakie Iraqis, and every American out there is not a complete moron.

I don't mean to stereotype Americans. I am, after all, an American. I know that every person in the army doesn't do this type of thing but this abuse scandal could not come at a worse time.

Unfortunately Americans are stereotyped. We are hated because of our actions, and I can't really say I blame the arab world (or the rest of the world) for hating us. What America is doing is wrong.

I'd like to think that Americans aren't being generalized because of the actions of these moron soldiers but we ARE. We are being generalized. An Arab world that is already fed up with America is not going to look at this and say: "Well, these are just the actions of the few." No. They're going to hate us more. Most of all, this just fuels the terrorists' fire. More reason to hate.

[Heccubus]

the same ones who hate America so they feel good when they blow up our buildings and aircraft.

Wrong again. Terrorists are terrorist. Claiming an entire race shares the same beliefs as a handful of al- Qaeda is extremely closed-minded and racist. Also, name me four al-Qaeda members who were Iraqi and I will give you a cookie.

I have a small poster that reads "Terrorists come in all colours, don't spread hatred" that seems to apply to this situation Clearly this anonymous mail-sender (who it's a shame did not actually have the respect to provide at least a first name) has not looked at the full picture. I mean, back when Saddam first fell, we were shown nothing but images of Iraqis celebrating. We were told that they were happy that the Americans were there "liberating" them. Now that the widespread hatred of Iraq (and any other middle-eastern country, since people seem to be ignorant and stupid enough to believe that they're all one and the same) seems to be at its highest, we're told of nothing but the civilian attacks on US troops. I could get into the fact that I think it's pretty stupid for American civilians to be wandering around Iraqi towns without military escort, but I won't. Nobody said that the US citizens who have died in Iraq were not important. Their case is just as, and perhaps more tragic and horrific. Our point is that the actions committed by the US Army are stupid, thoughtless, cruel, irresponsible, the list of descriptive phrases could go on for pages.
No one should be supporting somebody who tortured--physically OR emotionally--anyone. Be they American, Iraqi, whatever. Like Chefelf said, THIS IS A WAR. Some people get killed, others don't. If you honestly believe that every Iraqi citizen hates every American citizen, then you're no better than the ones who actually do hate America. There are Canadians that hate America, there are Italian, Scottish, Irish, English, Australian, Japanese, Chinese, Mexican, Brazillian, every country will have people who don't like America. And there are American's who don't like other coutries. It's not a mature attitude, and I'm not saying it's right, but that's the way it is. Deal with it.

[Amber-Nicole]

You have all made very good points, and I do understand that Americans are often unfairly stereotyped, just as people from many other foreign countries can be. Many people out there will not understand that these are only the actions of a few. But I would like to make it clear to as many as possible, that these ARE only the actions of a few, they are disgraceful and wrong, and not all of us here in America support them. Since discussions related to this topic have come up, between I and my friends, and in class discussions, I have been presented with the argument that "These people doing these acts could have been emotionally distressed because of what an Iraqi did to a comrade in the war, etc." That argument just doesn't work. People who are going to let racism arise from things like this don't even belong in the army. Racism and stereotyping are some of the issues that seem to get to me most. When my grandma was younger, a black man murdered both her father and her brother. She's been a hardcore racist ever since then. It's frustrating to try to change her point of view, because it's so damn impossible. Anyway, sorry for the novel.

[Jordan]

Most of all, this just fuels the terrorists' fire

I don't think they run on fuel created by the stupidity of americans. I think they run on the idea that they will go to heaven and eat dates with virgin women. I think that's how it goes.

[Chefelf]

I don't think they run on fuel created by the stupidity of americans. I think they run on the idea that they will go to heaven and eat dates with virgin women. I think that's how it goes.

I don't really think this is the ONLY thing making them want to commit these acts. They're religious fanatics and, like all religious fanatics, are out of their minds. However, America's foreign policy has not helped to make these people want to live in harmony with America.

Also, there is a HUGE difference between the people who cheer when Americans die and the people who actively seek to kill Americans.

Clearly this anonymous mail-sender (who it's a shame did not actually have the respect to provide at least a first name) has not looked at the full picture.

The person did provide a name (or pseudonym) but I chose to leave it out of the post out of respect to that individual. As far as I know they are not a member here.

[Heccubus]

Point taken, but aside from that part of it, everything I said stands.

[Ninja Duck]

What's wrong with American women in the news and media in these days? Everyone who doesn't know much about Americans will think the women here are all abusive soldiers who strip at football games and have affairs with the president.

[Heccubus]

You mean they AREN'T?