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Attack Of The Clones Logic Did They Diminish The Jedis' Power to Perceive the Sith/Darkside?

#1 User is offline   Darth Player Icon

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Posted 01 September 2006 - 06:21 PM

What seems like a straightforward 'yes' or 'no' question, maybe even poll worthy, is instead twisted wth Lucas' non-logic as presented in the PT. Did the existance of the clone army, with more on the way, become the cause for the Jedi not being able to perceive the Sith/Darkside/The Dark Lord of the Sith? I refer to the dialogue between Yoda and Mace Windu where he asks "should we tell the Council that our ability to percieve the Sith has diminished?" (Or words to that effect) and Yoda gives a pretty strong 'No'.


Could the clones, as an artificial, sentient lifeform, created en masse, whose development cycle is sped up have been the cause for the Jedi losing this ability? 250,000 beoings made from a similar template must register like a big reverberating echo through the Force. I hate to give Lucas that much credit.

And what of the cavalier way Obi Wan dismisses the death of one of the clone pilots in ROTS when they go on the attack on Grievous' ship? Anakin shows more concern! Obi Wan engages in playful banter with the Cody clones before going to Uutapu, where they stay aboard the cruiser to wait for his signal to engage and attack, seeming he has bonds with some of them in a friendly manner, and yet he dismisses their deaths in battle. Something's out of whack here, when you consider Yoda's speech to Luke in ESB about how the Force permeates through all living things (even the tree and the rock) and the treatment the clones get. Their use as cannon fodder in battle doesn't seem to effect the balance of the Force or raise more concern from the Jedi. Odd to say the least.
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#2 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 01 September 2006 - 07:59 PM

Oh man, it gets worse! Beleive me! Have you played Republic Comando for Xbox? When one of you Clone brothers is taken prisoner and killed, Yoda himself tells your squad to leave Kashyyk and don't worry about your brother at all. Dude! The end of that game really bothered me for about a day because of the apathy that the Jedi have against the Clone Army. Just because they are clones does not mean that they are no less human. They all develop their own personality as seen in the game.

As for being unable to use the Force so well, I think that that was just more pointless diologue to build drama and it left us asking more questions than having anything answered or resolved. I think that if in EP I, if Yoda and Mace Windu, or any Jedi for that matter could not sense that Palpatine was a Sith, then they all should be killed by him. The order for the Clone Army was just placed in or around the end of EP I. The beings on Kamino said that a Syfo Dias placed the order and we learned that Syfo Dias died ten years ago. Ten years ago was the events in EP I. The Jedi were begining to suck way before their time to suck came about in EP II.

George Lucas doesn't follow his own story. Nothing is consistent here.
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#3 User is offline   miladyblue Icon

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 04:52 AM

The title of this thread is definitely in the oxymoron category of "jumbo shrimp" and "military intelligence," since "logic" and "George Lucas" are about as far apart and contradictory as you can get! wacko.gif

Seriously, though, the whole thing about "we're losing our power over the Force" could start an interesting debate as to which was the bigger copout in the entire PT - and the list is pretty damned long.

Did they forget to pay their Force bill, so that what was described in the OT as "an energy field generated by all living things" was shut off until the Jedi could make arrangements to pay the bill up? What about interest, late fees, and reactivation fees?
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#4 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 06:02 AM

QUOTE (yukai_ondori @ Sep 2 2006, 01:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh man, it gets worse! Beleive me! Have you played Republic Comando for Xbox? When one of you Clone brothers is taken prisoner and killed, Yoda himself tells your squad to leave Kashyyk and don't worry about your brother at all. Dude! The end of that game really bothered me for about a day because of the apathy that the Jedi have against the Clone Army. Just because they are clones does not mean that they are no less human. They all develop their own personality as seen in the game.

I haven't played the game, but what exactly could they have done for him if he was already dead?

QUOTE (miladyblue @ Sep 2 2006, 10:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Seriously, though, the whole thing about "we're losing our power over the Force" could start an interesting debate as to which was the bigger copout in the entire PT - and the list is pretty damned long.

I still think Anakin's 'fall' (ha!) to the Dark Side has to be top of the list, but the 'diminishing Force' BS comes a close second.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#5 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 11:12 AM

Ah, Helena, here's an answer for your reply: In the game, none of you actually die at the moment, you just get the crap beat out of you and you have no shields or life support, so you're still consious of things but you just have to lay there while one of your clone brethren revive you with a shot of bacta. The team member dies because the Jedi give the order to break off the attack and we can't get to where he is after he's been captured. We just leave Kashyyk with a three man crew instead of four.

The armor that you wear in the game is different from standard clone trooper armor. It has a shields system, a sealing system (for space and poison gas), and some other things. So no, no one really dies for the time. You're only out of luck if all of you get "knocked out" at the same time then you have to restart the mission.
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#6 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 03:21 PM

QUOTE (miladyblue @ Sep 2 2006, 04:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Did they forget to pay their Force bill, so that what was described in the OT as "an energy field generated by all living things" was shut off until the Jedi could make arrangements to pay the bill up? What about interest, late fees, and reactivation fees?


I like this idea, it shall be forwarded to Lucas... biggrin.gif
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#7 User is offline   TruJade Icon

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 04:33 PM

I can't believe i'm about to defend the 'diminished force' storyline Lucas had going in AOTC. but here i go:
the reason is because Darth Sidious and Count Dooku were so strong in the darkside,(just the two of them) that they clouded what the Jedi could and couldn't see.
That being said... Geogie ruins his own ideas.
Why did he have to bring science into a 'mystical religion' and try to explain everything. I know that i was content just completely and blindly following whatever he said about the force.
Now i think maybe one day we'll all be able to inject ourselfs with midi-chlorins and then everyone could be jedis. Wont we be happy then.

Duct tape is like the force....

There's a lightside, a darkside

and it holds everything together


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#8 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 04:59 PM

Well, at least you're thinking.
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#9 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 03:46 PM

QUOTE (TruJade @ Oct 4 2006, 10:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I can't believe i'm about to defend the 'diminished force' storyline Lucas had going in AOTC. but here i go:
the reason is because Darth Sidious and Count Dooku were so strong in the darkside,(just the two of them) that they clouded what the Jedi could and couldn't see.

Like most attempts to explain the PT, that only raises even more questions. A billion Jedi in the galaxy (well, thousands at least) and yet Sidious and Dooku alone are powerful enough to cancel all of them out? Bullshit. I can believe they're more powerful then the average Jedi, but 10,000 times more powerful? And wasn't Anakin supposed to be the strongest Force user in the galaxy?
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#10 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 12:09 PM

QUOTE (Helena @ Oct 5 2006, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And wasn't Anakin supposed to be the strongest Force user in the galaxy?

Anakin may have been one of the stronger force users, but I don't he was ever a true Jedi. He was (probably) very bitter about being raised as a slave, and even before joining Palpatine he (probably) would sneak into Coruscant homes at night and ruthlessly slaughter defenseless families and babies. Can you blame him?

This post has been edited by Storm: 07 October 2006 - 12:17 PM

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#11 User is offline   TruJade Icon

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 01:45 PM

Hahahaha.
Wow Storm!
That statement is wonderfully morbid. . .
and probably very true

Duct tape is like the force....

There's a lightside, a darkside

and it holds everything together


There are too many people in the world...We need another plague -Dwight K. Shrute [The Office]
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#12 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 01:35 AM

QUOTE (Helena @ Oct 5 2006, 03:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Like most attempts to explain the PT, that only raises even more questions. A billion Jedi in the galaxy (well, thousands at least) and yet Sidious and Dooku alone are powerful enough to cancel all of them out? Bullshit. I can believe they're more powerful then the average Jedi, but 10,000 times more powerful? And wasn't Anakin supposed to be the strongest Force user in the galaxy?


Who said anything about powers cancelling out other powers?

I think it's just the case that, over the thousand years or whatever it was where they were exiled and all thought to be dead, they developed powers that would help them survive. Otherwise, wouldn't the Jedi have been able to track them all down and kill them before TPM?

Doesn't a power that helps you hide, sneak about and lie seem like the perfect dark side trick?
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Posted 18 October 2006 - 01:46 AM

Blagh. The ability to sense other Force users by tapping into the universal energy is stupid and was a mistake in the first STAR WARS. Remember how in CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON, Yu Shu Lien was able to tell that Jiao Long was a swordfighter from seeing how she held her calligraphy brush? That was cool. These Jedi and Sith should be like superheroes, sure, but they should be able to hide from one another just fine unless they give themselves away by some subtle gesture. That would have been a lot more interesting than giving them extrasensory powers, and then removing them as necessary when you realized that such powers require a different type of story from the one you're writing. Lucas discovered the same phenomenon with the Jedi mind control trick, so he invented Force-proof creatures to "get around" that. Boo.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#14 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 02:24 AM

Jedi are too super human for their own good. The best defense for the over powering jedi moves, failing in duty, are that the force powers themselves fluctuate between weak and strong depending on wether the Jedi is concentrated enough.

It's still bullocks.
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Posted 19 October 2006 - 11:01 PM

QUOTE (Darth Player @ Sep 1 2006, 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And what of the cavalier way Obi Wan dismisses the death of one of the clone pilots in ROTS when they go on the attack on Grievous' ship? Anakin shows more concern! Obi Wan engages in playful banter with the Cody clones before going to Uutapu, where they stay aboard the cruiser to wait for his signal to engage and attack, seeming he has bonds with some of them in a friendly manner, and yet he dismisses their deaths in battle. Something's out of whack here, when you consider Yoda's speech to Luke in ESB about how the Force permeates through all living things (even the tree and the rock) and the treatment the clones get. Their use as cannon fodder in battle doesn't seem to effect the balance of the Force or raise more concern from the Jedi. Odd to say the least.


Well, as Yoda tells Anakin a little while after the battle the Jedi are supposed to let things go. That attachment could eventually lead to the darkside.
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