[jxw]

I've been lurking here a few weeks and enjoying the very accurate
criticism of the new "Star Wars" films.

The tone of many of the posts here reminds me of fans of bands. I'm
sure everybody knows about this. You get into a band, buy all their
stuff and generally regard them to be creative geniuses. Then they get
past their sell-by date and you lose interest in them because they've
lost whatever it was that made them good in the first place.

The tragic thing is that when listening to one of their later albums,
there are always a couple of songs that are pretty good, that remind
you why you listened to them in the first place. There are also many
fans who are unable to see the reality that the later stuff is
rubbish, and continue to profess the genius of the band. There are
even some who claim that the later stuff is better than the earlier,
despite the fact that nobody likes it. Fortunately, there doesn't seem
to be anybody that mad among the Star Wars fans. Not yet, anyway.

So I thought I'd look through the prequels and find the bits that were
actually good. Don't worry, this won't take long...

The Phantom Menace.

1. The opening scene. Spaceships! Jedi Knights! Brilliant. Two of the
best actors in the film cover up for Lucas' trademark crappy
dialogue and get the film going in classic Star Wars fashion. Then
they land on Naboo, Jar-Jar Binks turns up and I land back in
reality with the awfulness of most of the rest of the film.

2. Palpatine. This was the only character that made any connection
with the original films. Same actor, obviously, but it was
completely believable that this bloke was also the Emperor in
ROTJ. Whether as insincere politician or in "wipe them out, all of
them" mode, he was probably the only interesting character in the
film.

3. The light sabre battle at the end. For all of the flaws in the
sequence, it was arguably the best fight in all of the Star Wars
films. The soundtrack made this really worth watching.

And that's it. Most of the rest of the film was aimless (Coruscant),
boring (pod race, Tatooine in general) or just plain embarrassing (yippee!).

Attack of the Clones

1. The chase sequence on Coruscant. It could be argued that it's just
a retread of the speeder chase on Endor, but that's no bad
thing. It was different enough to stand on its own and made for a
pretty good action sequence. The attempts at comic relief could
have been left on the cutting room floor however.

2. Anakin and Palpatine. Lucas admitted on the voiceover that he'd
basically made their relationship so understated that it was
non-existant to all viewers. So he added this scene afterwards and
shoe-horned it into the film. At the end of the scene, it shows the
two of them walking together and it's nicely shot so that it looks
like the Emperor and Vader together. It's not quite as blatant as
the "shadow helmet" later in the film, and all the better for
it. Once again, a good connection to the original films. Shame that
this sub-plot seems to be in a complete vacuum.

3. The Clone Factory. This reminds me of THX 1138. Lucas must have
loved the opportunity to produce a totally sterile environment
devoid of any humanity. Maybe this is the reason that this is the
only part of the film that manages to move the plot forwards while
retaining interest. Nice design, too, Chefelf's understandable
"Myst" criticism notwithstanding.

4. The final scene with the Star Destroyers taking off and the
Emperor's March being played. Stirring.

Unfortunately, the film also contains the "Gladiator" scene, the
Gameboy scene in the droid factory and the planless mess of the Clone
War. Not to mention more long, boring and pointless stretches. These
succeed in making the film as a whole even worse than the Phantom Menace.

All in all, I estimate there are about 15-20 minutes from over four
hours of film that are worth watching.

[Chefelf]

jxw, welcome to the forums!

I agree... it's not all bad (though the bads most certainly outweigh the goods). There are a few brief flashes of quality in the prequels but it they are quite short in supply.

You bring up a good point about the fans of a band. However, George Lucas's treatment of his fans makes Metallica look like they have integrity.

On your points:

The Phantom Menace

1. The opening scene. Spaceships! Jedi Knights! Brilliant. Two of the
best actors in the film cover up for Lucas' trademark crappy
dialogue and get the film going in classic Star Wars fashion. Then
they land on Naboo, Jar-Jar Binks turns up and I land back in
reality with the awfulness of most of the rest of the film.

The opening of the film was pretty good. If you ignore the seething boredom created by the whole trade dispute and simply look at it as a classic "Star Wars" in media res beginning then it can be enjoyed. Part of the excitement of this scene is getting to see two, fully trained Jedi in action (having only been able to imagine such a thing for the past twenty years). You get a deep appreciation for just how powerful they were in their peak. Sadly, as you said, they go down to Naboo and meet Jar Jar then the foolishness commences.

2. Palpatine. This was the only character that made any connection
with the original films. Same actor, obviously, but it was
completely believable that this bloke was also the Emperor in
ROTJ. Whether as insincere politician or in "wipe them out, all of
them" mode, he was probably the only interesting character in the
film.

Ian McDermott, gives a great performance (along with Neeson and MacGregor) as both Palpatine and Sidious. Uh oh! Did I give it away that it's the same man?!?!

3. The light sabre battle at the end. For all of the flaws in the
sequence, it was arguably the best fight in all of the Star Wars
films. The soundtrack made this really worth watching.

Though I still despise Darth Maul, for both being a pretty lame villain and looking like a member of the Insane Clown Posee, I did rather enjoy the final battle. Seeing Jedi faceoff against each other was probably the highlight of TPM for me. Unfortunately it came after nearly two hours of annoyance and dissapointment. I still think the scene where they are separated by those weird energy barriers (as would happen in a video game) and Qui-Gon sits and meditates was brilliantly done.

Attack of the Clones

1. The chase sequence on Coruscant. It could be argued that it's just
a retread of the speeder chase on Endor, but that's no bad
thing. It was different enough to stand on its own and made for a
pretty good action sequence. The attempts at comic relief could
have been left on the cutting room floor however.

Agreed. The comic relief was a terrible shame. The chase scene, while pretty unnecessary and only serving as visual effects masturbation, was a pretty good look at Coruscant.

2. Anakin and Palpatine. Lucas admitted on the voiceover that he'd
basically made their relationship so understated that it was
non-existant to all viewers. So he added this scene afterwards and
shoe-horned it into the film. At the end of the scene, it shows the
two of them walking together and it's nicely shot so that it looks
like the Emperor and Vader together. It's not quite as blatant as
the "shadow helmet" later in the film, and all the better for
it. Once again, a good connection to the original films. Shame that
this sub-plot seems to be in a complete vacuum.

Anakin and Palpatine's relationship is completely overlooked (which is dumb, because the point of this movie should be to introduce it). There was a certain element of quality to the two of them standing side by side. I guess. Though it could have been done about 300% better at least.

3. The Clone Factory. This reminds me of THX 1138. Lucas must have
loved the opportunity to produce a totally sterile environment
devoid of any humanity. Maybe this is the reason that this is the
only part of the film that manages to move the plot forwards while
retaining interest. Nice design, too, Chefelf's understandable
"Myst" criticism notwithstanding.

Yeah. Lucas has a knack for producing a " totally sterile environment
devoid of any humanity". The reason it worked in this scene is because it was actually intentional for once. This whole sub-plot plays out like a mystery novel written by a ten-year-old. It begins nicely but could have used some work in making it a hell of a lot more interesting on the whole.

4. The final scene with the Star Destroyers taking off and the
Emperor's March being played. Stirring.

I do appreciate the ship and vehicle designs looking as they should be precurssors to the ships and vehicles in the OT.

All in all, I estimate there are about 15-20 minutes from over four
hours of film that are worth watching.

Bring that down to 10-12 mintues and I'll agree with you.

[jxw]

Part of the excitement of this scene is getting to see two, fully trained Jedi in action (having only been able to imagine such a thing for the past twenty years). You get a deep appreciation for just how powerful they were in their peak.

Exactly. I almost felt like a kid again when I saw this first scene in the cinema. I think this is why I feel so disappointed by the films since then - the first new scene of Star Wars for nigh on 20 years and it was great. Then it's mostly rubbish.

Ian McDermott, gives a great performance (along with Neeson and MacGregor) as both Palpatine and Sidious. Uh oh! Did I give it away that it's the same man?!?!

Ian McDiarmid, actually. Such an unusual name though that I suspect it is a professional name. Those were the only three that were at all good in the film. Neeson in particular pulled off a great feat. Watch him talking about the Midi-thingy-majigs and he manages to deliver those utterly awful lines in a way that sounds half way convincing. Alec Guinness did the same in Star Wars when describing the Force to Luke. By contrast, Natalie Portman delivers far better lines (relatively better, of course) in a dull monotone that makes me cringe.

As for the Palpatine/Sidious dichotomy, I think it's only the more mindless fans/drones that ever believed this. In some of the quotes I've read, even Lucas appeared to be surprised that people might think that Palpatine and Sidious were different people.


One favourite scene from AOTC that I forgot to mention was the sadly shortened slaughter of the Sand People. I think I'm just a sucker for watching Jedis in action. The problem is that in the context of the film, you hate Anakin so much by then that you'd wish that the Sand People would get the better of him and start off a Mel-Gibson-style orgy of torture and violence on Anakin. Still, here's hoping I'll see him suffer horribly in the next film.

[Vwing]

By contrast, Natalie Portman delivers far better lines (relatively better, of course) in a dull monotone that makes me cringe.

I completely agree. People say that Christensen and Portman were only bad because of the lines they were given. But there are actors, and then there are ACTORS. Guiness, Neeson, McGregor, McDiarmid, all had equally strange dialogue that could have been messed up, but they were able to pull it off, make it sound natural. Yes, it's a shame that Hayden and Natalie got stuck with bad dialogue. But they still could've done it better, made it sound half-decent.

And though I criticize it a lot, I will admit that on an entertainment level, I enjoyed AOTC. Again, I make fun of all its shortcomings, specifically the Anakin-Padme romance, but I did enjoy it. And truthfully, I thought that final scene, where the Imperial March plays while the Star Destroyers take off and then cuts into the wedding with Across the Stars playing, was brilliant. I have to say that that's one of the greatest scenes. For me, that one scene picked it up from a so-so 2 1/2 star picture to an enjoyable 3-star one.

[jxw]

I completely agree. People say that Christensen and Portman were only bad because of the lines they were given. But there are actors, and then there are ACTORS. Guiness, Neeson, McGregor, McDiarmid, all had equally strange dialogue that could have been messed up, but they were able to pull it off, make it sound natural.

It makes me wonder if the "ACTORS" that you name all had experience in Shakespeare productions. It amazes me how actors can make archaic language (400 years old!) sound as natural as you and I would speak. If they can do that, making Lucas' dialogue appear lively, or at least plausible, cannot be too hard. It struck me several times in the Lord of the Rings trilogy that the dialogue was in large parts the stilted, portentious, quasi-archaic prose that Tolkien wrote, and I was impressed that the actors managed to pull it off so convincingly.

Can Portman and Christensen really do no better? Or is Lucas content with dire acting?

[Chefelf]

Can Portman and Christensen really do no better? Or is Lucas content with dire acting?

I have always laid the blame for the performances squarely on the shoulders of Lucas. Partly because I truly think it's his fault and partly because it's just more fun.

I've seen them both in other movies and they're just not as bad as in the Star Wars movies. I really think that while they were both capable of better performances, Lucas should also have pushed for them. I think LUCAS is the one who is just content with dire acting.

[Jordan]

The attempts at comic relief could
have been left on the cutting room floor however.

I gotta use that line sometime in conversation. "left on the cutting room floor" ha!

[Jordan]

You made some good comments jxw.

IN TPM
Barring the space battle that was in transition with the final Jedi battle, the fight was fantastic. There was no flying or any of that matrix style BS. It was just plain old well done choreography.

The actual ending was a bit anti-climactic. I wish there was no pause in the battle. That long segment of Obi Wan just hanging there snuffed the flame a bit.
But just prior to that, Darth Maul put on an impressive display of flips(with out strings) and hits.

Ewan did a great job too. That part when he blocks Maul's attack from the back and then the front was sweet ass! He did it in one swift motion.

The music during the fight was also a big bonus.

That final battle is what saved (if you can call it that) the movie. What seemed to be a never-ending display of pointless scenes with terrible script writing, was eventually capped of with the grace of a quality sword fight.

Nick Gillian, the choreographer, did a wonderful job and maybe the only person left in the production worthy of any honor.


As for ATOC

I was sickened by the Yoda fight. It was stupid and not acceptable. I can't relate to CG. It 's a tool that can help explain a story, but should never over shadow the main characters.

Not to mention Anakin's sword fighting was mediocore at best. George would argue that he wants to save it for the final episode. But doesn't he get hacked to bits by Obi Wan? Hence the breathing suit?

[Vwing]

Well, in half-hearted defense of Lucas, he will probably show Anakin killing Mace Windu and a lot of other Jedi and people before the Obi-Wan-Anakin showdown, so we'll see his lightsaber skills there. Also, he'll probably be owning at one point during the fight, when Obi-Wan is able to turn the tables, and so in the fight we see at some point each fighter at his best.

I actually had an idea for the fight, tell me if it's a good one. Basically Anakin would really be wearing Obi-Wan down because of all of Anakin's aggression and Anakin that Obi-Wan just can't take. At one point, after Anakin has nearly pushed Obi-Wan to the breaking point, Obi-Wan takes the pose he took in A New Hope before Vader strikes him down and breathes deeply. Something happens to Obi-Wan, as he seems to embrace the living force around him. Anakin is a little taken aback at this, and hesitates before swinging at Obi-Wan. Just as the lightsaber is about to connect with Obi-Wan, however, Obi blocks it (*cue heroic music*). Anakin again swings, but Obi-Wan easily deflects the blow. Anakin tries to put as much aggression, as much power into his swing as possible, but no matter what he does, Obi-Wan is able to block him effortlessly. Then Obi starts taking charge, forcing Anakin back to the edge of a pit of lava (after cutting off a limb or two perhaps). Anakin again tries to move forward and attack, but Obi meets his lightsaber with such force that Anakin is pushed off the side. He is hanging onto the ledge with his robotic hand, which Obi-Wan tries to grab. A last trace of the old Anakin shows up, but only for a second, and in a last-ditch effort to kill obi-wan, he pulls Obi into the pit with him. But Obi-Wan as he is falling is able to grab on to something (I don't have this part too fleshed out, point is he survives), while Anakin falls into the lava.

I know it's a little reminiscent of the Matrix, where Neo suddenly just easily defeats Smith, but I think it's pretty good, what about you guys?

[Mike Mac from NYU]

To
Jxw

IMO, Phantom Menace is not nearly as bad a movie as people make it out. Sure it has Jar-Jar Binks in it, but the overall plot structure and story is actually very good. The overall plot is two Jedi knights stumble into an invasion of an innocent world, they rescue the Queen, along this path they encounter a young Jedi and a Sith Lord, they from there on attempt to liberate the planet and. It's a very good plot that is in the spirit of the Star Wars Genre.

Phantom Menace also has the greataction movie pacing that Star Wars, Indiana Jones films and James Bond movies helped bring to the Genre. I will explain this pacing concept in a later post.

All in all, Phantom Menace is a great idea that was horribly executed. The plot of TPM is IMO the only acceptable way to begin this trilogy. It was just preformed horribly.

My favorite parts of TPM?

1. Making Anakin a little boy- In my soon to be posted redux of f the prequel, I originally had Anakin as an adult, a pilot in the Old Republic Navy that gets involved in the defense of the invasion of Alderaan by the clone army. I always envisioned Anakin as being this perfect soldier that reluctantly comes to except his Jedi heritage. I still like my idea, but when I thought about it making Anakin a young child at his introduction is actually a better idea and makes more logical sense. It creates two brilliant ideas that Lucas never capitalizes on:
a. If Anakin is significantly younger than Amidala, there is no a legitimate reason for them NOT to get together and produce Luke and Leia. Their relationship is simply a boy's first crush on an older woman. It's something that Amidala can dismiss away and something that could create an impetus or even a rage for Anakin. It creates romantic conflict, the key to all great love stories. This idea would be work out better if Amidala were made a little bit older and some of the "pediphilia" scenes were toned down to appropriate levels.

b. If Obi-Wan and Amidala are the same age and Anakin is much younger, you have created a love/hate relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan right of the bat. Anakin could view Obi-Wan as both a big brother and as a potential rival for Anakin. Obi-Wan is everything Anakin isn't but strives to be, a great jedi and potential lover for Amidala. This is something that could be fostered throughout the trilogy. For it to work, there has to be a romantic chemistry between Obi-Wan and Amidala, something George Lucas completely missed on.

2.Darth Maul- This trilogy needed another Sith Lord, and Lucas came up with one that was unique from Darth Vader and yet still gave the evil prescence. To me Darth Maul is the most underused charcacter in the trilogy. His failure stem form the fact that Lucas used stuntman Ray Parks rather than get an established actor to play him. In retrospect the person that probably should have played Darth Maul is Samuel L. Jackson. I am sure that idea probably went through Lucas mind, but because of racial conflicts Lucas probably wanted to avoid having another black actor play an evil Sith Lord {remember James Earl Jones did DV's voice}. Having some lines and better acting for Darth Maul could have made his charcater a memorable one in the Star Wars mythos. Killing him off too early was another problem, he should have lived well into Episode II.

[Despondent]

Sounds good to me. I could see it being played out in my mind's eye, and it was enjoyable.

I read a theory the other day about Qui-Gon being the phantom menace, (a sith in disguise) and allowing him to get killed by darth maul to MAKE obi-wan raise anikan to be a jedi. they didn't go into it, but does anything explain how D. Maul knew exactly where on tatooine to find our hapless clan in TPM? oh yeah, it was Q-G who erased the jedi computers. btw, shouldn't they have had backups for their data?

[jxw]

Reply to Mike Mac

All in all, Phantom Menace is a great idea that was horribly executed. The plot of TPM is IMO the only acceptable way to begin this trilogy. It was just preformed horribly.

That sums it up quite well. I thought TPM was a pretty awful film mainly because it was so boring. I still think it is boring, but after seeing AOTC, I can recognise that there's at least a good film hiding inside TPM. AOTC is, in the second half, merely a series of action sequences cribbed from other films with no attempt to link them together coherently.

Regarding your suggestions about the film, the alternative development of Anakin's character is interesting, but potentially too complex for a Star Wars film. It's beyond George Lucas at any rate, because it involves humans and not machines.

The other point about Darth Maul is spot on. There's no really good reason for him to be in the film. A more Vader-like presence in the film would be good mainly to give us an idea of what a Sith Lord is really like. If we could see Darth Maul being generally unpleasant and scary, we would know exactly what Anakin is letting himself in for on his journey to the dark side. As it is, we are told that the Sith are Bad People, with no good reason. I can see that Anakin will become Darth Vader close to the end of Star Wars 3 and there will be no explanation of what that really means. The only explanation we will get is in the original Star Wars film.

A better exposition of Darth Maul would have let us know how evil he was, and by inference, give us an idea of what Vader was like between episodes 3 and 4, and why he was such a villain.

As it is, having two half developed characters in Maul and Dooku does nothing.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

In response to jxw initial post

My response to your best parts in the original trilogy

Phantom Menace

1. The opening scene. Spaceships! Jedi Knights! Brilliant. Two of the
best actors in the film cover up for Lucas' trademark crappy
dialogue and get the film going in classic Star Wars fashion. Then
they land on Naboo, Jar-Jar Binks turns up and I land back in
reality with the awfulness of most of the rest of the film.

I hate the opening sequence and I will tell you why . For the simple reason that it starts out so DAMN SLOW. Remember the begining? All we see are these star ships just siting there doing nothing while a smaller ship flies to them. We jump to the Nemoidians who were shabbly explained about in the scrawling intro. All we know that there a Jedi in the ship, because IT WAS EXPLAINED TO US IN THE SCRAWLING INTRO. Where is the tension, where is themystery of who might be in the smaller ship? This scene would work better if we didn't know that there Jedi in the ship to begin with. Nute Gunray then says what has to be one of the most moronic sounding lines in this movie. "Have you ever encountered a Jedi before?" I mean listen to to that line on your TPM copy, it just sound stupid. Then we have the Jedi introduced non-chaalantly into the waiting room as if they were at a Red Lobster waiting for the food order. {look at that scene again, that's exactly what it looks like?? ) We then get some really wooden and uninteresting dialogue between Obi-Wan and Qui-Jon. Something about impending doom, being mindful of the force and some other mindless Jedi-speak. These lines are delivered by Ewan and Liam with the emotion and interest of a speech by Alan Greenspan. . I can't tell you the bad feelings this put in my mind when I saw this exhange on the screen. It was at that exact moment I knew that Lucas had messed this movie up. I knew this was not going to be the same old Star Wars that I loved. Anyway, the action doesn't get going until the battle droids interupt the Jedis.

My main complaint with this introduction is that it takes too long for the story and the action to develop. Their should have been a space battle the moment the intro finishes scrolling. To give a sense of the invasion of naboo.

Te Jedi's entrance should have been more mysterious and dramatic.
Try this: what if in the scrolling intro we only were told that an ambassador was coming. We see an alien ambassador come out with two mysterious hooded figure in robes flanking him a t each side. The protocol droid responds to the alien ambasador, the robed figures say nothing and maintain a quiet vigil. The Nemoidians decide to kill the ambassador to prevent him from going back to the senate. The battle droids are dispatched, believeing the job easy since it is only the amabassador and his HUMAN bodyguards. The droids surround the ambassador, the cloaked figures act, lightsabers emerge, a fight ensues. After all the droids are destroyed , through the smoke the cloaked figures remove their hoods, it is Obi-Wan and Qui-Jon. Obi-Wan makes a flippant comment about "You were right the Negotiations would be short!" Now wouldn't that be better!!

remember, this was the first Star Wars film in nearly 15 years, this movie needed to come out of the gate fast and FAMILIAR for it to be accepted as a continuation of the Star Wars story. Instead TPM comes out so slowly and and takes what seems like forever for it to get started. I can't tell you the fustration I had watching the opening just waiting for it to get going!!

4 The final scene with the Star Destroyers taking off and the
Emperor's March being played. Stirring.

Stirring? A lot of us on this post have some other words to describe this scene. My word for it: UNIMAGINATIVE. {is that a word?}

3.The Clone Factory. This reminds me of THX 1138. Lucas must have
loved the opportunity to produce a totally sterile environment
devoid of any humanity. Maybe this is the reason that this is the
only part of the film that manages to move the plot forwards while
retaining interest. Nice design, too, Chefelf's understandable
"Myst" criticism notwithstanding.

The clone factory is not altogether a bad scene. It does propel the plot forward, which I am not sure is a good thing considering the plot . You have to take a look at the context in which that scene is taking place. The whole middle third of ATOC had to be the most boring stretch of film since 2001: A Space Odyssey. I mean their is no action, a confusing political plot with the Separatists,a boring love story, Obi-Wan getting ridiculed by 3 year olds and eldery librarians and now this clone factory plot. If the clone scene was surrounded by better scenes I might have enjoyed it more. All in all I did like the visuals and the scenary of the clone factory. Good use of color with the azure blues and sterile whites. I have a problem though with the clone factory concept, though.

a. It is IDIOTIC, to make a million clones of the same guy!! diversify
little. Jango Fett can't be THAT good a warrior.
b. It is another example of the fantasy elements of Star Wars being replace by Sci-fi elements. Star Wars is still a fantasy story of knights, princesses, monsters, evil kings and slaying the dragon. The clones are just too cold a concept for what is supposed to be a warm and emotional story.

2. Palpatine. This was the only character that made any connection
with the original films. Same actor, obviously, but it was
completely believable that this bloke was also the Emperor in
ROTJ. Whether as insincere politician or in "wipe them out, all of
them" mode, he was probably the only interesting character in the
film.

Agreed!!!. He was also completely non-existant in ATOC. Isn't this THE premier evil guy in the Trilogy? See my Unnecessary Characters post on this forum for more details.

3. The light sabre battle at the end. For all of the flaws in the
sequence, it was arguably the best fight in all of the Star Wars
films. The soundtrack made this really worth watching.

See my Battles Scenes post on this forum for extensive detail of this topic.

2. Anakin and Palpatine. Lucas admitted on the voiceover that he'd
basically made their relationship so understated that it was
non-existant to all viewers. So he added this scene afterwards and
shoe-horned it into the film. At the end of the scene, it shows the
two of them walking together and it's nicely shot so that it looks
like the Emperor and Vader together. It's not quite as blatant as
the "shadow helmet" later in the film, and all the better for
it. Once again, a good connection to the original films. Shame that
this sub-plot seems to be in a complete vacuum.

Again, more of Lucas incompetence and failure to understand the story.

1. The chase sequence on Coruscant. It could be argued that it's just
a retread of the speeder chase on Endor, but that's no bad
thing. It was different enough to stand on its own and made for a
pretty good action sequence. The attempts at comic relief could
have been left on the cutting room floor however.

You're right it wasn't a bad scene. The comic elements should definitely have been removed. Although the scene looks like something that should have belonged in "Back to the Future" or "The Fifth Element". I don't know if it is a "Star Wars" scene.
























But hey if you like jxw, that's no probelm.

Will post more i

[Vwing]

4 The final scene with the Star Destroyers taking off and the
Emperor's March being played. Stirring.

Stirring? A lot of us on this post have some other words to describe this scene. My word for it: UNIMAGINATIVE. {is that a word?}

I'll defend this to the bitter end. This is a stirring scene. I don't care if the end is a rehash of Empire Strikes Back. It is beautiful and a great lead-in to Episode III. The music is perfect. Just literally perfect. The Imperial March in the first part of the scene is one of the most powerful uses of it in the entire series. The shots of the clone troopers and the early Star Destroyers are magnificent, and probably the best directing and cinematography in the movie. Showing both Organa looking down a little and Palpatine standing at the front, proud of his army are great foreshadowing. And the wedding scene, again, it's a rehash of Empire Strikes Back. So what? It's different enough that It hink it's cool to appreciate the parallelsand realize that it is a magnificent scene in its own right. It is a perfect ending, both satisfying and foreboding. I'll agree with you on other things about the prequels, and though I liked it I'll help you bash Attack of the Clones, but this one thing I will defend to the very end.

[jxw]

Reply to Mike Mac's second post in this thread

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the first scene. My reasons for liking it were that it was exactly what I expected from Star Wars! i.e. starships and Jedis. The low key start seemed to be in keeping with the story in general: there was no conflict at the beginning, this developed as time went on. Starting with a space battle would have been inappropriate. I know it's "Star Wars", but this is supposed to be an introduction into how the war started, not plunge us into the middle of it. My misgivings about the film only came, as I say, with the appearance of Jar-Jar.

On the clone factory, I think that my first post in reply to you shows that we have pretty much exactly the same opinion of the film in general. On your criticisms of the clones, though, they are valid, but I think you're getting a bit too much into Star Trek territory. Yes it's silly, but on that basis you might just as well criticise the density of the asteroid field in TESB (which could possibly be rationalised) or the fact that there is a huge monster living inside a dead, airless planetoid (which definitely cannot). The Clone Wars were mentioned in the original Star Wars, so clones of some sort had to appear in some way. The way they did may not be perfect, but it's not too bad.

Vwing has presented an excellent defence on the Star Destroyers at the end of AOTC. The scene might lack imagination, but on the other hand it shows how the Empire started in a very simple and obvious way, i.e. in typical Star Wars fashion. For me, this makes the scene important, and I think it was done well. It makes a connection to the original films, and makes them cohesive. One of Lucas' stated aims was to make the films fit together. This is one scene that does this. There are too few of them however.

On the Coruscant chase - Back to the Future II ! It could almost have come from that film! I never made that connection...