[StarWarsIsUs]

- S. W. Isus

Nope, try again when you find a Quran that didn't come in a box of freedom fries. The Quran references Christians and Jews as "people of the book" which means that they also received God's word. It is ok for a Muslim to marry a Christian or a Jew and to interact with them as brothers. Christians and Jews don't make the same allowances in their own holy books, in fact passages in the Old Testament call for anyone who fails to observe the Christian Sabbath (Jews and Muslims) to be murdered. The problem between Palestinians and Israelis is not a problem between Jews and Muslims, it's a problem far older than Islam or Judaism. It's the constant war of the land barons versus the natives. And I hate to break it to you, but most of the time the home team wins.

I like you, JM. But this isn't acceptable.

The Quran constantly contradicts itself. Don't use the crap with 'people of the book.' Don't even use that.

READ the Quran; it talks DOWN on the Jews. That is an UNDENIABLE FACT!

Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. 2:61

Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. 2:65-66

Jews are the greediest of all humankind. 2:96

War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216

Allah plots against non-Muslims. 86:16

A hypocritical Jew looks like an ass carrying books. Those who deny the revelations of Allah are ugly. 62:5

So don't lay the crap on me.

Muslims are tought to HATE and LOATH Jews! If you deny that, you are lieing to everyone on this forum.

This post has been edited by StarWarsIsUs: 31 August 2006 - 05:19 PM

[Jordan]

It's not to be taken literally. LoL.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 31 August 2006 - 05:58 PM

[StarWarsIsUs]

The can I make some anti-semetic comments, and hope no one will take me literally?

No.

This post has been edited by StarWarsIsUs: 31 August 2006 - 08:23 PM

[Slade]

And the Old Testament has God telling his people to kill the non-believers and all of that tosh.

SWIU: Cite your sources and put your "quotes" in context, or it's all a load of fragmented bullshit.

But to start with:

[2:60] Recall that Moses sought water for his people. We said, "Strike the rock with your staff." Whereupon, twelve springs gushed out therefrom. The members of each tribe knew their own water. Eat and drink from GOD's provisions, and do not roam the earth corruptingly.

[2:61] Recall that you said, "O Moses, we can no longer tolerate one kind of food. Call upon your Lord to produce for us such earthly crops as beans, cucumbers, garlic, lentils, and onions." He said, "Do you wish to substitute that which is inferior for that which is good? Go down to Egypt, where you can find what you asked for." They have incurred condemnation, humiliation, and disgrace, and brought upon themselves wrath from GOD. This is because they rejected GOD's revelations, and killed the prophets unjustly. This is because they disobeyed and transgressed.

[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[2:63] We made a covenant with you, as we raised Mount Sinai above you: "You shall uphold what we have given you strongly, and remember its contents, that you may be saved."

[2:64] But you turned away thereafter, and if it were not for GOD's grace towards you and His mercy, you would have been doomed.

[2:65] You have known about those among you who desecrated the Sabbath. We said to them, "Be you as despicable as apes."

[2:92] Moses went to you with profound miracles, yet you worshiped the calf in his absence, and you turned wicked.

[2:93] We made a covenant with you, as we raised Mount Sinai above you, saying, "You shall uphold the commandments we have given you, strongly, and listen." They said, "We hear, but we disobey." Their hearts became filled with adoration for the calf, due to their disbelief. Say, "Miserable indeed is what your faith dictates upon you, if you do have any faith."

[2:94] Say, "If the abode of the Hereafter is reserved for you at GOD, to the exclusion of all other people, then you should long for death, if you are truthful."

[2:95] They never long for it, because of what their hands have sent forth. GOD is fully aware of the wicked.

[2:96] In fact, you will find them the most covetous of life; even more so than the idol worshipers. The one of them wishes to live a thousand years. But this will not spare him any retribution, no matter how long he lives. GOD is seer of everything they do.

[62:5] The example of those who were given the Torah, then failed to uphold it, is like the donkey carrying great works of literature. Miserable indeed is the example of people who rejected GOD's revelations. GOD does not guide the wicked people.

[86:0] In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

[86:1] By the sky and Al-Taareq.

[86:2] Do you know what Al-Taareq is?

[86:3] The bright star.

[86:4] Absolutely, everyone is well guarded.

[86:5] Let the human reflect on his creation.

[86:6] He was created from ejected liquid.

[86:7] From between the spine and the viscera.

[86:8] He is certainly able to resurrect him.

[86:9] The day all secrets become known.

[86:10] He will have no power, nor a helper.

[86:11] By the sky that returns (the water).

[86:12] By the earth that cracks (to grow plants).

[86:13] This is a serious narration.

[86:14] Not to be taken lightly.

[86:15] They plot and scheme.

[86:16] But so do I.

[86:17] Just respite the disbelievers a short respite.

You are an ass, spreading lies with your active ignorance, intolerance, and bigotry. And now you probably have convinced Jordan that Muslims are supposed to be taught to hate Jews. Congratulations.

This link says it all much more eloquently than I ever could.

[Spoon Poetic]

Slade, the problem is, some sects of Muslims take those verses that SWIU quoted out of context, as well; and act on them. It's like those Christians that take some of the verses out of the Old Testament and use them as justification for killing gays, etc. You can't lump everyone together, no matter where you're lumping them - all Muslims do not hate and want to kill Jews, but nor do all Muslims not hate and want to kill them.

[civilian_number_two]

- S. W. Isus

Nope, try again when you find a Quran that didn't come in a box of freedom fries. The Quran references Christians and Jews as "people of the book" which means that they also received God's word. It is ok for a Muslim to marry a Christian or a Jew and to interact with them as brothers. Christians and Jews don't make the same allowances in their own holy books, in fact passages in the Old Testament call for anyone who fails to observe the Christian Sabbath (Jews and Muslims) to be murdered.

It's fun to take religious passages out of context to make any sort of statement you want. The term "people of the book" actually has more than one reference in the Quran, not always positive like you say, and Muslims can use their book to sanction violent xenophobia just as well as the Jews and Christians can. I'm lazy, so here's someone else's treatment oif the subject:

http://en.wikipedia....ple_of_the_Book

[barend]

again, allow me to sum this up

christians:
hide behind their influence on the law to corrupt justice and bend the definition of 'morality' to undermine independant thought.
jews:
hide behind their historical victimisation like a turretwall to machinegun their enemies with cries of antisematism tantamount to calling people a witch, to hinder anyone that isn't a jew.
muslims:
hide behind the guise of non-affiliation to extreemist groups who savegly murder all the people that don't share their beautiful religion of domestic abuse and genocide.

attitude is the major problem here... and the inability to sit the fuck down and let everyone else live in peace.






but getting back to the original point...

all three have shown no regard to civilians.


it's against their very nature.

[Zatoichi]

Jm, I would like you to clarify upon what you mean when you talk about freedom fighters. More specifically, those in that area.

Who exactly is fighting for freedom there? The Palestinians, maybe. Others who claim to fight on the behalf of the Palestinians and yet constantly screw them over at every turn, I don't think so. Neighboring nations that have fought in wars past with Israel supposedly on Palestine's behalf, yet have taken their land and turned away their refugees. That sounds more like a bunch of backstabbing pricks to me. People being pissy because their countries got the shit kicked out of them by a single country vs. a coalition of forces, most of which were fighting for their own interests anyways. Those same people that had some of their land taken away from them and later on given back. You know, back in the day, the victors of a war just took over and ruled the entire country they defeated. That's what Isreal really should have done, ruled those bastards (not completely serious here).

Suicide is not bravery, it is one of the things that is furthest from. It is one of the most cowardly acts know to mankind. Instead of stepping up and taking the hard road being a responsible human being, you take the easy path and end your own life. Suicide bombings are in no way self sacrifice. If you think it is, you don't know what sacrifice really means. On a side note, wouldn't it be so much easier in military and subterfuge ops, if you expected your soldier or operatives to end their own lives to complete the mission rather than trying to get them out of it alive?

If anything, I'd say the ones to blame are the leaders of Muslim society in the Middle East. They live like kings whilst their people live like shit. The violence and the dogma (including Shiites vs. Sunnis) distract those people from the conditions in which they live. That is how those leaders prevent their people from rising against them, by making it so they don't realize that that is what they ought to be doing.

Why is it that Jews from all over the Earth can get along with each other, but Muslims going from one town to a neighboring one cannot?

[Cobnat]

Suicide is not bravery, it is one of the things that is furthest from. It is one of the most cowardly acts know to mankind.

HA! You try and kill yourself, see how much balls you need to do so.

[J m HofMarN]

What I meant was, you don't even consider the possibility of them being right, you don't research their side.

- S. W. Isus

I have to admit that Yaalon seems like a decent enough guy, and definately has a differing view than a lot of those responsible for this terrorism, but somehow I doubt people like that are being heard anymore.

- Me, at the top of the page.

I realize that not all Jews are evil, there are hundreds of them in Israeli prisons for not helping in their governments murderous endeavors. One of them who blew the lid on the Israeli production of weapons of mass destruction was even kidnapped, beaten and tortured and is currently living under house arrest for the rest of his life, unless somehow he escapes to Hamas or other Arab controlled territory.

- Me, near the middle of the page

I think I've looked into their side plenty, especially into the dissenters. Those in Israel who favor peace and brotherhood with the Palestinians are continuously harassed, imprisoned or even tortured. Those in Palestine who make themselves servants to tyranny are gifted with huge sums of money by Mossad or other Israeli intelligence to inform on their own people. It would bring me more joy to know that one Palestinian informer was killed then to know that a hundred Israeli storm troopers were killed, though if the freedom fighters were ever able to take down numbers of occupation forces at that rate it would surely be reason for celebration.

Your stance is radical to the point of chariacture and absurdity.

So is the ideology of Hamas, but even they stopped suicide bombings and tried to hold to a peace treaty with Israel. Then the murders and kidnappings of government officials started and Hamas struck back. The radicals aren't those who oppose Israel, they're the terrorists who sit in board rooms and try to run algebra problems with innocent life and the lives of heroes.

Did all of the US' soldiers in 'Nam deserve to get hit by Agent Orange and killed in the jungle because they were forced to join the army and didn't/couldn't dodge the draft?

I would prefer that bloodshed was kept to a minimum, but I applaud the Vietnamese efforts to kill as many US soldiers as possible until they realized it was time to go home. Did the soldiers deserve it? If you picked up a gun and shot at a Viet Cong freedom fighter, than yes, you deserved a fist full of shrapnel. People had the fucking opportunity. Look at the letter from Eldridge Cleaver, he wrote to black soldiers in the army telling them that the Cong weren't the enemy, that they should turn their guns on their officers, servants of the pig empire, and more over Cleaver was right. Those who failed to surrender to the Vietcong and change sides, those who continued to murder in the name of Nixon or Johnson's evil goals, I don't feel bad for them.

I think dumping agent orange on our own soldiers was not out of character for that regime, but was rather something that showed their true colors. They used massive chemical warfare against a civilian population and their own men. No one deserves that, but certainly the people who deserved it the least were the freedom loving people of Vietnam.

I'm also offended that you participated in the bastardization of the teachings of Zarathustra.

The Nazis adopted the german word for super-man just as they adopted the swastika. If Nietzche had had his own individual word without clear roots in the German language then I would use perhaps master race or meistermensch as it were. I do however have to join you in stressing that Nietzche had nothing to do with Naziism and that the recurrence of the word is purely coincidence, such as the greek idea of democracy popping back up in the way it's used by Bush. Words meanings regretably change over time. A hundred years ago the word democracy meant people overthrowing their government or colonial power and putting in place an elective system. Now when someone hears that democracy is coming to their country their first thoughts are where to move to to avoid the bombing.

[J m HofMarN]

The Quran constantly contradicts itself. Don't use the crap with 'people of the book.' Don't even use that.

Ouch. I'm going to have to counter with "Don't even go there, girlfriend!"

Slade, the problem is, some sects of Muslims take those verses that SWIU quoted out of context, as well; and act on them. It's like those Christians that take some of the verses out of the Old Testament and use them as justification for killing gays, etc. You can't lump everyone together, no matter where you're lumping them - all Muslims do not hate and want to kill Jews, but nor do all Muslims not hate and want to kill them.

The problem is that the queen bee teaches her followers to sting people, to hate things that have flesh and to have much love for stinging them, as evidenced in this quote taken out of context and then altered:

"Buzz... Buzz... [Killl everyone who does not worship the great bee god] buzz"

So you see, when I went and threw rocks at a bee hive for a long time and then got stung it wasn't because I was being an asshole, it's because the bees hate my religion.

Muslims can use their book to sanction violent xenophobia just as well as the Jews and Christians can.

Granted. It depends on the reader and not on the book then so really the point is moot. With Christian loonies you could mark it off to isolated incidents wherein crazy people happened to be Christians and decided that Jesus told them to blow up abortion clinics. Those people would have probably ended up crazy no matter what religion they followed. But when something like suicide bombing or what have you becomes endemic in a culture there has to be more reason for it than a few crazies reading a book, and the most convenient thing for people to blame is Islam and the Arab race, not to say anyone here is doing that, but I'm sure you've all heard the delightful "nuke Saudi Arabia" rants of our more poorly informed contemporaries.

Others who claim to fight on the behalf of the Palestinians and yet constantly screw them over at every turn, I don't think so

Hamas, Hizballah, and any other groups in Lebanon, Gaza or the West Bank. are the ones I refer to. Hizballah is lumped into the fight for Palestinian freedom because they attacked Israel in order to relieve pressure on Hamas and paid a dear price for it. Their victory however has proved to be an inspiration to freedom loving people all over the middle east.

Instead of stepping up and taking the hard road being a responsible human being, you take the easy path and end your own life. Suicide bombings are in no way self sacrifice.

Suicide, yes. Giving your life against occupation? No. Anyone who opposes the Israeli occupation, indeed anyone unfortunate enough to be the wrong color in Palestine or Lebanon, faces death daily, but they continue on with their lives and with their resistance. Freedom fighters go out to fight for the liberty of theirn ation and die every day whether it be by Israeli bullets or by a detonator, but at least with a detonator theey have a better chance to take some storm troopers iwth them. But, as I said, that takes a lot of guts. Suicide bombers are not angsty emo kids or whatever, they're mostly young people, people who have families (or at least HAD families before Israel killed them) they are people who would prefer to live, but who know that htey will surely die for their dignity, for their country, for their freedom. And in knowing that they will die they choose to meet death in a way that is most destructive to the enemy.

You want to call that cowardly? Look at the Israeli storm troopers. THey ournumber, outgun, out train, and out supply any freedom fighter group except perhaps Hizballah. They have body armor and medicine and communications and armor and bombers backing them up and where do they go? Into refugee camps to kill people who have already lost their homes and hopes to zionism. The Israelis are the cowards for building walls of armor and concrete and machine gun nests. They know their cause is bullshit and they're unwilling to die for it and THAT is why they fled from the battelfields of Lebanon.

If anything, I'd say the ones to blame are the leaders of Muslim society in the Middle East. They live like kings whilst their people live like shit.

And the hundred thousand dollar question is: Who gives (some) Muslim leaders the money to live like kings and destroys those who turn down the aforementioned money?

Why is it that Jews from all over the Earth can get along with each other, but Muslims going from one town to a neighboring one cannot?

Americans kill eachother at about 20000 a year. Go look up the murder figures for Muslim countries and see whether they're the savage cannibals you make them sound like.

[StarWarsIsUs]

I have muslim friends. Some muslims are my friends ... but Islam is not my friend.

[J m HofMarN]

And finally as for the Koranic context issue, let me present this verse from the Quran so that I might prove that there is nothing therein that is anti-semitic:

11And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

12If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which Allah All Merciful hath given thee to dwell there, saying,

13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for Allah All Merciful: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

17And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that Allah may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

Now, what I see here is that this is a warning to Muslims IN Israel to not let anyone tell them of any heathen gods outside of the people of the book. This chapter can't possibly apply to Jews or Christians. If you read it in context it's more about people trying to forcibly convert Muslims than actually just going out and killing people. As I said, Islam is not a religion of hate.

[Spoon Poetic]

PLAY NICE, DAMMIT!!!

(JM, though I had to invisiblefy your post, I must say I applaud it. Very nice! )


SWIU: Shut it with the insults. And as JM pointed out, they weren't even good insults. So do us all a favour and leave them out of the Debate Club.

[StarWarsIsUs]

I like you Spoon Poetic. You're a good person. Very level-headed, and when things get out of hand, you are the one to step up and say "STOP IT!"

Seriously. I respect you.