[J m HofMarN]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14536281/

As military chief of staff in the early 1990s, Barak had organized undercover units called "Cherry" and "Samson," soldiers who dressed like Arabs and killed Palestinians suspected of violence.

That afternoon, Yadlin called Asa Kasher, a philosophy professor, and began working on ethical guidelines for fighting terrorism. They also asked a mathematician to write a formula to determine acceptable civilian casualties per dead terrorist.

It was a familiar debate. How many civilian casualties were acceptable? The mathematician whom the military had enlisted had failed to produce a formula. Reisner, who had stipulated that targeted killing was legal "only if all is done to minimize civilian casualties," served on a seven-member committee that also failed to agree on a standard they could use. The numbers the men had suggested averaged 3.14 civilian deaths per dead terrorist, Reisner recalled. If the civilians were children, the figure was smaller.

Now, all of the "nicety nice we hate killing babies" bullshit aside, this is really monstrous. Hamas and Hizballah are at least honest that they don't give a damn, though they prefer to kill Israeli soldiers and government officials. But these guys? They hire frikkin mathmeticians on taxpayer (probably US) money and try to make up formulas of how many children they're allowed to kill as if they can make it not wrong as long as they kill less than 3.14 Palestinians for every freedom fighter they assassinate.

This is the true face of Israel. They try to seem all decent, whine about civilian casualties, and then do something like the crimes against humanity in Lebanon, destroying an entire country and a thousand civilians for no good reason. And I'm sure they had some kind of lunatic equation that said a thousand women and children for two Israeli storm troopers was justified.

I have to admit that Yaalon seems like a decent enough guy, and definately has a differing view than a lot of those responsible for this terrorism, but somehow I doubt people like that are being heard anymore.

[Deepsycher]

It seems to me that they are using mathematics to become careless. Shouldn't they be using these formulas as an example to take more care when dealing with civilians and not the other way round?

[Jordan]

THey are not using math to become careless. They are using them to get an estiamte and to see how civillians are impacted during battle. They are not saying "ok, we are going to kill 5 civs for every terrorist, yay for us!" You're just splitting hairs in the end. Wether they use them or not people will die and thats really what your beef is here, people dieing in war.

Sadly, this is how wars have been fought for the past 100 years, almost entirely save for the US attacking Japanese bases on remote islands in teh pacific and various battles in jungles in South america etc... A large portion are fought near civillians.

This is how wars ARE fought. Nobody goes into a big open field any more. They are fought in cities, villiages, and rural areas. It's the nature of the beast.

And you're wrong, Israel does target militant compounds with collateral damage in the form of civllians. You're freedom fighters target residential neighbourhoods, and sometimes soldiers (actaully they rarely attack the IDF, look what he last attack on the military got them- they are cowards fighting a war they can't win. They're sore fucking losers who take cheap shots here and there only prolonging pain and suffering, ya real brave!)

Civillians will die. It's unfortuante. But thats life. If you want Israel ousted, and you do, then you're also going to have to come to terms with the fact that if not for the states, they would be dead. All those poor civillians which you care about so much would be killed and persecuted. Jews have been persecuted before many times through out history by muslims. THey hate them Jm, they will treat them like shit. It's in history and it's going on now.

Now, all of the "nicety nice we hate killing babies" bullshit aside, this is really monstrous. Hamas and Hizballah are at least honest that they don't give a damn, though they prefer to kill Israeli soldiers and government officials

Hamas gets a clearing from you since they are honest about killing civillians? ROFL. Hamas don't kill the soldiers, they kill civillians, all the time with car bombs and what not. How can you avoid all the news? They attack buses, hotels, anything with inncont lives. They even hit large buildings contaiing 1000's of innocent people.

JM just face it, you don't give a shit about people dieing in other coutnries or the babies. You hate Israel becauce you hate the US. Stop trying to be the bleeding heart liberal and the blood thristy 'freedom fighter' at the same time, it doesn't work.

I dont' even think YOU beleive that the Palestinians want a peaceful resolve. Or that they are capable of living in peace with the Jews. You claim these terror groups have tried for peaceful diplomacy, even though they publicly claim every first strike on also support the annilation of Israel. They are not diplomats, they are religious freaks with kalshnikovs.

[Spoon Poetic]

I hate to say this, but Jordan has a point. Whether you mean to come across this way or not, this is how it sounds to us: You are excusing one group from killing civilians just because they happily admit they are killing innocent people. Like that makes it okay. Like proudly admitting to the murder makes it much more acceptable, maybe even good.

I'm not accusing you of actually meaning this, but you sound like you are just using the tragedy of the death of innocents for your cause, and you don't actually care - because from your perspective, it's okay for Israeli civilians to die. You hate Israel and the US, and that's clear - they can do no right, and their enemies can do no wrong. So it kind of makes me, maybe I'm alone, but it makes me not really want to take your posts seriously.

No offense meant. I promise.

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 29 August 2006 - 12:44 AM

[Slade]

I don't think he's saying that it's ok that the Palestinian groups to kill civilians, just that they get a small point for admitting that they do. There's no "clearing" involved, at least in that post.

Jordan: The Israeli government is just as bad as the Palestinians, if not worse, due to its funding by powerful countries and having a well trained and funded military and all. Not that I doubt for a second that if the situation was the other way around it would be any different, of course. Also, shrugging your shoulders and saying "That's war," is no excuse for collateral damage on either side. It's also degrading and missing the issue to write off a group of people so pissed off by their situation that they're willing to die for it as "sore fucking losers" and "cowards." Should they all stand in a line in front of an Israeli firing squad or something so that they could be "brave?"

[Spoon Poetic]

Jordan is partially right about another point, though - a lot of these extremists that are involved in this whole thing aren't pissed off for valid reasons. They're pissed that Israel and Israelis exist, period. They want all Israelis, and other groups, too, off the face of the earth. No one from the left side seems to ever acknowledge that these people exist, and in more numbers than just a handful.

However, no one on the right side ever seems to acknowledge Israel's wrongs, or that it's only a select group that want "death to the infidels."

Why aren't there more people in the middle of this issue? Everyone's all, "Israel is teh 3vil" or "Israel is sanctioned by God and is perfectly innocent." Can no one see that both sides have faults?

[Dr Lecter]

Jews have been persecuted before many times through out history by muslims. THey hate them Jm, they will treat them like shit. It's in history and it's going on now.

Oh yes, lets remember some of those famous Muslims that persecuted the Jews...

Ok, now let's look at the non-Muslims that persected the Jews-
- A certain nation in central europe, which we don't need to go into anymore, read about about book written in the last 60 years if you don't know what I'm talking about.
- Two certain Spanish Monarchs called Ferdinand and Isabella whom expulsed the Muslims and the Jews from Spain.
- Philip Augustus, a French monarch who was abit short of cash, so decided to take all the Jewish money.
- The Romans, they constantly executed Jews, because like now, back then they were exetremely zionist. They causing problem after problem of the Romans, set stuff on fire, killing people.
- During the Goa Inquisition in South India, "Celebrating the Jewish Sabbath was enough to get a person burned at the stake", aswell as persection of all non-Catholic religions, including Muslims. And this started in 1552, and only stopped in 1812 when the British took Goa.
- In Papal States, until 1840, Jews were forced to attend sermons urging their conversion to Christianity. And until 1870 were forced to live in areas called "ghettos".
- Hell, there's too much to write. Go here for more

This post has been edited by Dr Lecter: 29 August 2006 - 07:14 AM

[Jordan]

I'm not sure what you're point is, Lecter. We're talking about the middle east here. Ya, Jews have been persecuted beyond belief through out time. But we're talking about their relationship with Muslim nations here.

I'll drag up some facts later when I get home to show you how well the two people have gotten along through time. Jews never had the upper hand until recent and before this time it was they that lived in ghettos and it was they that were treated as second class citizens, at the hands of Mulsim authoirty. So logic would tell me that if they did lose power and funding, things would revert back to the old way.

Palestinians can't get along with the Jews, it's not going to happen. It's been going on for ages. Look at at natives and Westerns. Blacks and white. Shit, even Francophones have problems with Anglophones is Quebec, and their history in Canada is lax in comparrison.

Having a mixed state of Jews and Palestinians is oil and water. I'm not justifying the death of innocent lives here, I'm saying it's never stopped wars in the past and it's not going to now. Muslim militants don't give a damn about their people, if they did then they would not keep on with their futile attempt to destroy Israel. They are baitng them continuously.

Their countless failed attempts at fear mongering and bloodshed have been the cause for their peoples death. The playing field for a battle can't be anything other than cities and villages. Look at the geography of the place.

Do you honestly belive that the IDF would go around stomping on it's neighbours if they didn't have too? Is this what you're telling me?

You seem to think amensity is the best solution. You must belive that by turning the other cheek, the Muslims miltiants will all of a sudden just stop their attacks. There is no negotians for peace. Israel will not give up claims to the land and that is the only diplomatic solution that will work, if they walk from the seat. That ain't happening.

They gave back all the land they aquired during the war they won. It did nothing. Gaza was the last bit of land handed over to Palestinians and they ended up using it as a rocket launching site. That tells me somthing, it tells me that it goes beyond fairness and equal gain, it says "they want the whole damn piece of the pie". These groups that JM supports all have stipulated charters which call for the destruction of Israel. This means 'goodbye Jews'

The Palestinan exodus left on their OWN. The countries that should have taken them in, rejected them. Jordan, Egypt, Syria all turned their backs on them after the war. So it's not about living happily in good hands, it's all symbolic. They want the holy land. It's a holy war dude, nothing else. Jews are thriving there and build everything you see. Prior to Israel, it was a dive with a scarce populace. Jews made it what it is today. Muslims began pouring in to try even out the numbers, later on though. But eventually they had to walk out in shame after an embarrising attempt to grab total power failed.

1) Jews are on the defence and respond to attacks
2) Jews are not going to give up Israel
3) If they do it would be curtains for them

Inshort, Israel is trying to survive in a neighbourhood that wants them ousted. How would you feel if you're enemies lived all around you, and plotted and schemed to try kill you. Cut them some slack.

[J m HofMarN]

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They are not saying "ok, we are going to kill 5 civs for every terrorist, yay for us!"

- Jordan

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The numbers the men had suggested averaged 3.14 civilian deaths per dead terrorist

- Israeli death squad

You're right, they didn't say five, they said pi. My bad.

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Actually they rarely attack the IDF, look what he last attack on the military got them- they are cowards fighting a war they can't win

Yes, the last attack on the military caused Israel to butcher a thousand innocent people and destroy an entire nation's infrastructure. I can't imagine why the freedom fighters would choose softer targets. And exactly how do you define cowardice? No matter how much you dislike the freedom fighters you really aught to use proper terminology. Going to an Israeli checkpoint and detonating explosives strapped to you would probably take a lot of guts, as would using guerilla warfare to turn back and indeed defeat one of the greatest armies in the world.

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If you want Israel ousted, and you do, then you're also going to have to come to terms with the fact that if not for the states, they would be dead.

If not for the states Israel would have had to negotiate long ago and this thing wouldn't have been allowed to fester. Instead they got infinite backing and immunity from the UN.

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Jews have been persecuted before many times through out history by muslims.

Jews have been infinitely more abused by Christians, so statisticly it's likely better for Jews to live among Muslims than Christians. However, due to current events that statement is moot. A Jew living among Muslims today, who did not make every effort to further himself from this terrorist acftion, would be no different than a supporter of Nazi Germany living in England in 1940.

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Hamas don't kill the soldiers, they kill civillians, all the time with car bombs and what not. How can you avoid all the news?

Hamas itself has halted suicide bombings within Israel. You probably have them confused with PFLP or Islamic Jihad. In return for that gesture though Israel continued to assassinate and murder their leaders and is currently holding numerous Palestinian elected officials hostage. I truly do wish that Hamas had the power to strike back in kind and make these monsters pay for their crimes, but until they can shove a katyusha up Olmert's ass they can strike a blow wherever they like as far as I'm converned.

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They are not diplomats, they are religious freaks with kalshnikovs

And yet they are trying. They may not be good at it, but they continue to try all means to gain back the dignity Israel took from them. Until Israel is willing to let the refugees return, free the thousands of Palestinians and Lebanese it tortures and pay reperations for the terror and destruction they've wrought the only means for the Palestinians to maintain their dignity is through resistance.

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I'm not accusing you of actually meaning this, but you sound like you are just using the tragedy of the death of innocents for your cause, and you don't actually care - because from your perspective, it's okay for Israeli civilians to die.

The Palestinians have no choice as to whether to fight or not. They can either answer the call to resistance or they can sit down and quietely let their people and culture be destroyed. The Israelis however not only continue to assassinate the leaders of the Palestinian state they supposedly want to live in peace with, but their people continue to vote in killers such as Ariel Sharon, who was under investigation for massacres in Lebanon, and the Israeli government continues to lure people into Israel to help in their fiendish goals. They actually pay people to emigrate to Israel, trying to continue to populate the land with their Jewish master race and further push any remaining Arabs out. And all of those new immigrants become servants of the Israeli army, which every Israeli citizen serves in.

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They're pissed that Israel and Israelis exist, period. They want all Israelis, and other groups, too, off the face of the earth.

What exactly are you basing that off of? That because they're angry at Israel and its main occupants that they must clearly be anti-semites? No. Neo Nazis are anti-semites. They're trying to persecute a group of people who never did anything to them. Palestinians who call for the death of Israel are pissed because Israel likes to blow up their homes, water treatment plants, politicians, children, roads, electricity plants, and farm land. I don't think they blame Jews for that, but they certainly have every right to call for the death of Israel and the US since those are the two places that bring death to them. Does this make them biased against Christians or Jews? Well, if it does, the greater Christian and Jewish community has every responsibility to put a stop to the actions of members of their religions who are giving said religions a bad name. And if you intend to argue that freedom fighters want to kill everyone who isn't Muslim you need only look to Lebanon. The victorious freedom fighters of Hizballah are ALLIED with the main Christian group of that nation, whereas Israel butchers them just the same as all other Lebanese civilians.

Jordan- I think Lecter's point is that none of the leaders he mentioned had "Abu Al" or " Sheik" in their name, and that in fact many of the times Jews were persecuted Muslims found themselves on the rack right beside them. But don't let a silly thing like history get in the way of your arguments. Israel is at war with Muslims. Israel has ALWAYS been at war with Muslims.

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Having a mixed state of Jews and Palestinians is oil and water.

And there you have it, the very thoughts behind the Israeli genocide. All inferior races could only serve as pollutants, and we ubermensches cannot mingle with them except at the end of an M16.

It's a holy war dude, nothing else. Jews are thriving there and build everything you see. Prior to Israel, it was a dive with a scarce populace. Jews made it what it is today.

And a fine Zieg Heil to you too.

Inshort, Israel is trying to survive in a neighbourhood that wants them ousted. How would you feel if you're enemies lived all around you, and plotted and schemed to try kill you. Cut them some slack.

Maybe the neighborhood would have less of a problem with them if they hadn't robbed the house of their neighbors and were now focused on razing the houses of two of their neighbors to the ground. But then again it dosn't matter how many buildings or women and children they blow up, because they built it all anyhow, right?

[StarWarsIsUs]

Well, the main reason for the condescending attitude of the Muslims to the Jews, is that the Quran is very unkind to them: more or less calling them "the failed ones" of Allah. Or something of the sort. That Anti-Semetic mentality comes right from the Quran.

[Spoon Poetic]

The Palestinians have no choice as to whether to fight or not. They can either answer the call to resistance or they can sit down and quietely let their people and culture be destroyed. The Israelis however not only continue to assassinate the leaders of the Palestinian state they supposedly want to live in peace with, but their people continue to vote in killers such as Ariel Sharon, who was under investigation for massacres in Lebanon, and the Israeli government continues to lure people into Israel to help in their fiendish goals. They actually pay people to emigrate to Israel, trying to continue to populate the land with their Jewish master race and further push any remaining Arabs out. And all of those new immigrants become servants of the Israeli army, which every Israeli citizen serves in.

So you're saying it is okay with you, even good, for every Israeli to die. Even though 90% of them have nothing to do with anything. You give every Israeli responsibility for things they didn't even indirectly affect - what about those that didn't vote for such and such and so and so? Even if they did vote for someone, it's not like they were all, "ooh, let's vote for this guy because he'll kill people!" That's certainly not why, for instance, my cousin voted for Bush in 2000 - he voted for Bush because at the time, he seemed like the better candidate. No one knew at that time what he'd do in the Middle East, but we did know that Gore was a bit of a crackpot, and my cousin, based on the knowledge he had at the time, thought Bush was a better candidate. So, does he deserve to die because he voted in someone who sent out the military?

Do you realize YOU sound very anti-semetic? Deciding a whole group of people should die just for the actions of a few select individuals that hold the power - that's antisemetism. That's the basis of every anti-semetic purge: Some Jews a way long time ago may have killed their god so they decide that they all deserve to die. In your case, some Israeli leaders killed some Muslims and so you've decided they all deserve what they're getting. But, the double standard pwns again! It's NOT okay for even one Muslim civilian to die for the actions of their select individuals.

JM, do you even know any Israelis or Palestinians? Ever talked to any? Or do you just take the word of any left-wing propogandaist as truth?

Why do you automatically write anyone off as wrong just because you don't agree with them?

[Deepsycher]

3.4 in average or 5 civilians per terrorist; So with a large group of terrorists the soldiers can massacre a large number of civilians or bomb a village of people if the figures add up right. The next people they may employ for this are surveyors to survey the amount of civilians there first.

This post has been edited by Deepsycher: 29 August 2006 - 04:47 PM

[J m HofMarN]

the Quran is very unkind to them: more or less calling them "the failed ones" of Allah. Or something of the sort.

- S. W. Isus

Nope, try again when you find a Quran that didn't come in a box of freedom fries. The Quran references Christians and Jews as "people of the book" which means that they also received God's word. It is ok for a Muslim to marry a Christian or a Jew and to interact with them as brothers. Christians and Jews don't make the same allowances in their own holy books, in fact passages in the Old Testament call for anyone who fails to observe the Christian Sabbath (Jews and Muslims) to be murdered. The problem between Palestinians and Israelis is not a problem between Jews and Muslims, it's a problem far older than Islam or Judaism. It's the constant war of the land barons versus the natives. And I hate to break it to you, but most of the time the home team wins.

Even though 90% of them have nothing to do with anything

- Spoon

All Israelis serve in the Israeli army, they have mandatory conscription much like another genocidal nation had. Therefore the lines are blurred because someone dressed as a civilian one day could blow up Palestinian beach goers on the week end. It's very difficult to spot terrorists, you see. They hide among the civilian population, like cowards.

Even if they did vote for someone, it's not like they were all, "ooh, let's vote for this guy because he'll kill people!" That's certainly not why, for instance, my cousin voted for Bush in 2000 - he voted for Bush because at the time, he seemed like the better candidate.

This is not my mode of thinking, but it does make sense, especially when you consider that many freedom fighters have lost family, children, friends, or limbs to the Israeli storm troopers and their American weapons. Power is like a loaded gun, and if you're going to vote it into someone's hands you have to be damned sure they're sane enough not to go and murder a bunch of people or else you're an accessory to that murder. Anyone who mistakenly voted for Bush or Sharon aught to, first of all, ask the forgiveness of their chosen deity, and then do everything in their power to help rectify the evil their vote caused. That's the responsibility that democracy entails.

Do you realize YOU sound very anti-semetic?

I'm an anti-semite the same way Churchill was an anti-germanite. I realize that not all Jews are evil, there are hundreds of them in Israeli prisons for not helping in their governments murderous endeavors. One of them who blew the lid on the Israeli production of weapons of mass destruction was even kidnapped, beaten and tortured and is currently living under house arrest for the rest of his life, unless somehow he escapes to Hamas or other Arab controlled territory.

Israeli leaders killed some Muslims and so you've decided they all deserve what they're getting.

Israel killed 1000 Lebanese and keeps 8000 in thier gulag system, the figure for the Palestinians is at least 5000 killed and 10000 imprisoned, plus a million refugees, thousands of homes and farms destroyed, and, at the lowest estimate, 10000 wounded.

That's more than "some" Muslims. That's fucking genocide.

JM, do you even know any Israelis or Palestinians? Ever talked to any?

I've talked to plenty of Palestinians and a group of Jews against the war at protests and such. What about you? Oh, and I don't listen to left wing propaghandists, I AM a left wing propaghandist.

Why do you automatically write anyone off as wrong just because you don't agree with them?

You're right, the point of debate isn't to prove the other side wrong, it's to make friends and then bake a cake with your new buddies. So then, shall it be chocolate or vanilla?

[Spoon Poetic]

What I meant was, you don't even consider the possibility of them being right, you don't research their side. You don't like a point they bring up, and you automatically write it off as wrong, without even knowing anything about it. You should at least check and see if there's any merit to what someone has to say. For instance: If someone says, 111,111,111 x 111,111,111 is 12,345,678,987,654,321; and you don't think it equals that, you should at least get out a calculator and check before saying "You're a moron who doesn't know math and therefore is also responsible for the deaths of thousands!!!111one"

And I know, you're going to come back with "I only say things are wrong when they are wrong, blah blah" but I just had to make sure you knew I didn't expect you to agree and give me cake. Though I'd take the cake if you offered.

The rest, I'm too tired to debate right now. Perhaps later. I just had to clear up the last bit.

[Slade]

Bleh. This is a mess.

JM: Your stance is radical to the point of chariacture and absurdity. You can't condemn an entire nation of people for the actions of a few. Otherwise you're no better than many of the people who are presently killing one another in the area. Please grow up a trifle bit and stop listening to so much Rage Against the Machine, ok? Israel is comitting lots of atrocities that violate international law. Palestine is pissed off about that and the fact that Israel continues to exist, and many there are so angry that they're willing to blow themselves up in an attempt to make a meager strike at a superior military force. It's a big mess, but calling for everybody on one side to die is just plain crazy. Did all of the US' soldiers in 'Nam deserve to get hit by Agent Orange and killed in the jungle because they were forced to join the army and didn't/couldn't dodge the draft? No, of course not. I'm sure that the Israeli army doesn't cackle gleefully at the chance to kill more Palestinians or Lebanese. The monsters aren't the people stuck in the middle, it's the people at the top. And even then, calling for public hangings, torture, and execution of leaders is quite unhumanitarian and hypocritical, especially for someone pissed off about the plight of those attacked by Israel (whether defense, "defense", or whatever reason).

I'm also offended that you participated in the bastardization of the teachings of Zarathustra. Nietzsche had nothing to do with Nazism, and in fact parted ways with Wagner because Wagner was an anti-semite and proto-Nazi, so don't go perpetuating the lies fed to people about the man by using his terms in reference to fascism. (I don't know how read you are on the subject, but in case you don't know what I'm talking about, the offending word is "ubermensche." The overman is not a fascist, nor does he support superiority based on race, nor any prejudice based on people who aren't ubermensche. Sorry. Pet peeve as the result of being a budding, unlearned philosophy geek.

Jordan: I don't think that the heart of the hatred is a race issue. It's a situation that breeds racism as a way to feed the flames, not the root cause. It's a symptom, not the disease, and reducing the situation to such black and white issues is dangerous to comprehension. You're right that both sides need to give a bit, and neither will, though your praise of Israel is a bit too much in regards to giving. They have yet to return to the original UN boundry lines set after they gained territory in the 1969... three day war, I think, and parts of the Palestine Wall go through the new boundries. That being said, I don't think that Palestine will ever settle at this point, and no matter what happens, there's going to be a group in the nation that cries "Death to Israel!" and refuses to negotiate for peace. That also isn't a viable solution at this point, and even if it was, it's just as absurd as anything else.