Chefelf.com Night Life: Lightsabers, what's the deal? - Chefelf.com Night Life

Jump to content

Star Wars Fan Convention

  • (2 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2

Lightsabers, what's the deal? Color coding

#16 User is offline   johnnycancer Icon

  • Henchman
  • Pip
  • Group: Junior Members
  • Posts: 89
  • Joined: 19-August 06
  • Country:United States

Posted 30 August 2006 - 03:47 PM

QUOTE (Helena @ Aug 30 2006, 05:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm pretty sure the 'classes' were just invented for gameplay purposes and have no basis in the movies, but I actually like the idea of Jedi specialisations. Makes a lot more sense then having every Jedi act as a combination soldier/diplomat/spy/detective/bodyguard/plumber/whatever happens to be needed at the time.


It does make sense, but, the whole idea of having specialization in the first place, I think, is because of problems that the PT and some of the EU created.

In the OT, my impression was that the Jedi were essentially a warrior class similar to samurai. Not that samurai weren't versed in philosophy and probably had training in espionage, but primarily they were warriors and mercenaries in the service of a lord. Similarly, I thought that the Jedi, being a warrior class, were employed by the Republic prior to the rise of the Empire as sort of an elite guard. All we ever knew about Obi-Wan is that he was a general; the OT never said anything about him being a diplomat or serving on any councils. But the man sure could fight a war.

But then, the PT comes around and all of a sudden, the Jedi are serving on councils, they're being sent on diplomatic missions, and they're getting involved in intergalactic politics; they're probably unclogging drains somewhere on Naboo; they're doing anything and everything except what they've been trained to do.

I'm not saying that some Jedi didn't specialize in espionage, or that there weren't some who received special training to serve as bodyguards, etc. Clearly, there are a lot of disciplines within the force. But, as far as serving in other roles such as detective/diplomat/plumber, it just never seemed appropriate for the Jedi. I mean, based on what we saw of their "diplomacy" in the PT, the Jedi clearly don't do well when they're asked to stretch a bit and think outside the box.

johnnycancer
0

#17 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

  • Soothsayer
  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 726
  • Joined: 30-July 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Crossroads
  • Country:United States

Posted 30 August 2006 - 06:00 PM

Great post Helena! I can imagine a Jedi Plumber! He's got his gut hanging out and he's showing some "crack" and in one hand a sandwich, the other, a lightsaber. And he's greasy looking! laugh.gif
Thanks for the KOTOR explanation. I have that game, but I still have not had time to play it. I hear it's rather lengthy.
0

#18 User is offline   Helena Icon

  • Basher Extraordinaire
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,327
  • Joined: 01-June 04
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:Current age: 22<br /><br />Current occupation: Auditor<br /><br />Interests: Reading, computer games, music, and Star Wars (obviously).<br /><br />Talents: Can't act, can't dance, can sing a little.<br /><br />Loves: Terry Pratchett's 'Discworld' series.<br /><br />Hates: Harry Potter. Surely I can't be the only one?
  • Country:United Kingdom

Posted 30 August 2006 - 06:02 PM

I have major issues with the 'samurai' idea, which I've already touched on in another recent thread. The fundamental problem with this is that SW is not set in ancient Japan, but in a massive, technologically advanced civilisation spread across an entire galaxy. It's clear that fighting skills are an important part of the Jedi training, but in practice, unless you have an enormous amount of Jedi - and seriously, you're talking a heck of a LOT of Jedi here - they're not going to be any use as a 'warrior class' in their own right. With the support of a large conventional army, yes, but not on their own.

This means that unless they were involved in major wars all the time over a thousand generations, which seems vastly unlikely, the Jedi probably wouldn't have done all that much actual fighting. At the very least, there'd be long periods where most of them would have to find other ways to use their skills. Also, remember Yoda's comment about how 'wars do not make one great' and his attempts to show Luke that violence isn't always the best solution? I get the impression that while Jedi are certainly trained to fight, and have been vital to the Republic in times of war, they see it as a last resort rather than as their primary function.

The plain fact is that however much Lucas may have been influenced by Japanese movies, there's no basis for thinking that Jedi are supposed to be the exact equivalent of samurai. They're not, any more than they're the exact equivalent of Tolkien's wizards or any other group. The OT tells us practically nothing about their role within their Old Republic, except that they 'protected' it and that Obi-Wan once acted as a general. That's fine for wartime, but you have to consider what they may have been doing in peacetime as well.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
0

#19 User is offline   johnnycancer Icon

  • Henchman
  • Pip
  • Group: Junior Members
  • Posts: 89
  • Joined: 19-August 06
  • Country:United States

Posted 31 August 2006 - 05:35 PM

QUOTE
unless you have an enormous amount of Jedi - and seriously, you're talking a heck of a LOT of Jedi here - they're not going to be any use as a 'warrior class' in their own right. With the support of a large conventional army, yes, but not on their own.


Well...yes. I agree. I don't think there were Jedi armies; I think, they were regarded as a type of elite force that would augment the force of a conventionl army - thus the idea of them being an "elite guard" and not just ordinary soldiers. Also, I would point out, since we're talking about a technologically advanced society, the actual number of people they need to fight a war might not be nearly as high as we might think (although, I'm probably not justified in making that statement since it's almost completely contradicted by the massive clone army). But then again, if you have a huge army of expendable clones, you probably wouldn't need very many Jedi, if one were so inclined to hire Jedi mercenary services.

QUOTE
This means that unless they were involved in major wars all the time over a thousand generations, which seems vastly unlikely, the Jedi probably wouldn't have done all that much actual fighting.


Agreed. But, you have to allow some time for the Jedi movement to develop a following and a purpose. To cite an example that may or may not be analogous, you've got Catholicism, which begins as sect of Judaism in the Roman Empire, and eventually the Catholic Church becomes a major player in European politics; but at the earliest, Catholicism is just beginning to be accepted after 100 years, and it doesn't become legitimate until about 300 years of existence (Constantine); and it's after this point that the Church actually begins to gain a lot of political power (forgive me if this timeline is a bit flawed, I'm just making some rough estimates without really checking dates).

So, while I agree that over a thousand generations the Jedi wouldn't have done much fighting, I don't think they were fighting from day one. But, even allowing a couple of hundred generations to establish a base, that leaves 700 or 800 generations to account for, which is a long time for the Jedi to be fighting and doing nothing else. But that doesn't mean they weren't acting in other capacities; such as royal guards, etc.

QUOTE
Also, remember Yoda's comment about how 'wars do not make one great' and his attempts to show Luke that violence isn't always the best solution? I get the impression that while Jedi are certainly trained to fight, and have been vital to the Republic in times of war, they see it as a last resort rather than as their primary function.


Yeah, I agree with you there. And, being reminded of that, it seems less likely that the Jedi would have thought that hiring themselves out as mercenaries was a good idea. But, I would suggest that not all Jedi felt the same way as Yoda. We know there were different beliefs and morals within the Jedi order, so, while Yoda's school of thought might have frowned on mercenary employment, that doesn't mean that an opposing school of thought doesn't exist.

QUOTE
The OT tells us practically nothing about their role within their Old Republic, except that they 'protected' it and that Obi-Wan once acted as a general. That's fine for wartime, but you have to consider what they may have been doing in peacetime as well.


Well, to get back to the issue of how many Jedi there actually were and if they were adequate for defending the Old Republic, if the OT tells us that the Jedi were the guardians of the Republic, then, that would suggest that either: a) there were a lot more Jedi than we thought (to be an effective military force); b ) if it was only a small number of Jedi then they served to protect the Republic through military means as small units in a larger conventional army and/or military advisors; or c) the Jedi were the "guardians" of the Old Republic in a different capacity than as a military force (what if the Jedi were the guardians of the history, culture, and knowledge of the Old Republic?).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yay! No more analysis! While I still think that the idea of Jedi serving in multiple functions is kind of problematic (mostly because from what we see in the PT, they're not very adept at participating in politics or diplomacy and I don't see why any responsible government would want to employ them, aside from the power of the Jedi reputation) it's easier to explain that, based on what we know about the Jedi, than it is to argue that the Jedi were purely a warrior caste.

So yeah, lots of possibilities I never thought about before, so thanks for posting Helena. After looking at everything a second time, I'd have to say that I agree with you.

johnnycancer

This post has been edited by johnnycancer: 31 August 2006 - 05:38 PM

0

#20 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

  • Soothsayer
  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 726
  • Joined: 30-July 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Crossroads
  • Country:United States

Posted 31 August 2006 - 06:48 PM

Well with the lightsaber subject kind of moved along, I have a new question: Why is Uncle Owen dressed like a Jedi? That mean old man shouldn't be wearing Jedi robes.
0

#21 User is offline   johnnycancer Icon

  • Henchman
  • Pip
  • Group: Junior Members
  • Posts: 89
  • Joined: 19-August 06
  • Country:United States

Posted 01 September 2006 - 12:17 AM

QUOTE (yukai_ondori @ Aug 31 2006, 04:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well with the lightsaber subject kind of moved along, I have a new question: Why is Uncle Owen dressed like a Jedi? That mean old man shouldn't be wearing Jedi robes.


I'm gonna go with a practical explanation this time. Uncle Owen is dressed like a Jedi because in the first couple of drafts of Star Wars (I'm talking about the whole OT, not just Episode IV, in case anybody is wondering) Owen is supposed to be Obi-Wan's brother. I'm guessing that while filming Episode IV, Lucas and crew were still debating whether or not to keep this element of the plot intact. So, Owen basically dressing the same as Obi-Wan was probably due to Lucas being a bit noncommittal on this issue.

That would be my guess anyway.

Incidentally, why did Owen end up being Anakin's stepbrother instead of Obi-Wan's brother? If Obi-Wan was hiding Luke on Tatooine, wouldn't it have made more sense hiding him with his brother? Instead he hands Luke over to Vader's brother? In the scheme of things I guess it's a minor point; basically, it allows Owen to talk badly about Obi-Wan. But still, if he was Obi-Wan's brother, it doesn't mean he had to like him. Owen could have taken Luke as a favor to his brother and to protect an innocent child from the Empire; but he certainly still could have disapproved of Obi-Wan's lifestyle and choices.

johnnycancer
0

#22 User is offline   MyPantsAreOnFire Icon

  • Level Boss
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 317
  • Joined: 15-May 06
  • Country:United States

Posted 01 September 2006 - 09:13 AM

My guess is that when ANH was made, they were all just wearing what was supposed to be clothing condusive to living on a desert planet. Yoda wears robes, but they don't look like the muddy brown design that inexplicable becomes the Jedi "uniform" by the time the PT rolls around. It's just lazy making the Jedi all wear the same thing like that. I mean, really...Obi-Wan doesn't change his name and he keeps wearing his Jedi outfit when he's in "hiding?" Moronic.
0

#23 User is offline   Helena Icon

  • Basher Extraordinaire
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,327
  • Joined: 01-June 04
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:Current age: 22<br /><br />Current occupation: Auditor<br /><br />Interests: Reading, computer games, music, and Star Wars (obviously).<br /><br />Talents: Can't act, can't dance, can sing a little.<br /><br />Loves: Terry Pratchett's 'Discworld' series.<br /><br />Hates: Harry Potter. Surely I can't be the only one?
  • Country:United Kingdom

Posted 01 September 2006 - 10:14 AM

In itself, I quite like the idea of the Jedi wearing simple robes, but I agree that having them exactly the same as the farmers' robes on Tatooine is ridiculous. It's like Lucas simply couldn't be bothered to design a different costume for them. Strange, when he seems to spend half the film's budget on all kinds of weird and fantastical outfits for Amidala...

Incidentally, notice that the hot blue Twi'lek girl appears to be exempt from the normal Jedi dress code? rolleyes.gif
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
0

#24 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

  • Soothsayer
  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 726
  • Joined: 30-July 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Crossroads
  • Country:United States

Posted 01 September 2006 - 10:48 AM

That's right Helena! That chick was almost hanging out of those brown leather straps that she was wearing! Then there's the other Jedi woman that wears black, looking almost like a middle Eastern burqa! Crap man, is George Lucas going to "modify" the PT and put some Jedi's wearing cargo shorts and tank tops next? If you're a Jedi and you're following the "tough life" of being a Jedi, then should not all in the Jedi ranks be wearing their non-curve showing robes? Isn't this to get rid of feelings of lust, attachment, jealousy?

What if there was some Jedi that was friggin' ripped! I mean massive arms and forearms, a carved out chest and abs like a Roman gladiator! You know that blue Twilek chick is gonna be all over him! Then some other Jedi that "just makes casual conversation" with that blue chick is gonna be mad as Hell, seeing how she favors a REAL Jedi! That built dude better put on his robes and cover up. There will be wars all over the place in the Jedi Temple.
0

  • (2 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2


Fast Reply

  • Decrease editor size
  • Increase editor size