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Yoda's Death The Emperor or Vader Didn't Pick Up On It Through The Force/Odd St

#1 User is offline   Darth Player Icon

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 01:02 PM

There is something I found odd about The Emperor and Vader not having sensed Yoda's passing in ROTJ and mentioning this to Luke. In the novelization, when Luke is brought before Palpatine, Palpatine mentions something along the lines of "So how is Yoda doing?" knowing he died, or "Yoda did a good job training you where Ben Kenobi left off". Presumably, Yoda masked his existance willingly, using the Force, and also by going into exile to Dagobah, a far off planet with 'massive lifeform readings' to camouflage his existance there, but when he dies and becomes one with the Force, there's little reason to believe that Vader or Plapatine wouldn't have registered the disturbance in the Force. The novelization was based on a near final draft of the script, so the thought was there. Instead, we get Vader's insistance that Luke is just a boy and Obi Wan can no longer teach him in ESB, and "Obi Wan has taught you well, indeed you are powerful" which makes it seem like Vader believes Obi Wan trained Luke far longer than he did. This is also a dumb line because Vader cut down Kenobi himself, so he knows he's not around but in the Shield Generator complex scene in ROTJ, where they speak with one another, Vader goes on as if Kenobi is still somehow training Luke, and that he's unaware of Yoda's existance, then and perhaps ever.
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#2 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 01:13 PM

Good speculations! I've wondered the same. I was always under the impression that Yoda hid on Degobah because Yoda himself cut down a Dark Jedi there and the Dark Jedi's dark energy haunts the cave that Luke went into. This allows Yoda to hide his good force energy from Palpatine or Vader becuase it was being balanced out by the dark force energy. True enough though, you'd think that anyone that is force sensitive would feel a Dark or Light Jedi passing away. Crap, Obi-wan felt an entire planet get destroyed and there may have been some force sensitive people there or not, but the point is, he felt it. I think Vader and Palpatine were too preoccupied with tormenting Luke to even consider his training with anyone else.
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#3 User is offline   MyPantsAreOnFire Icon

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 02:07 PM

Well, this was before the idea of the "Jedi ghost" was mucked around with and it was much more vague and workable. I had no problem assuming Vader had at least heard of Jedis being able to still communicate with the living world and he simply guessed that that's how Luke was helped in furthering his training.

Though that doesn't explain why Darth is stepping all over Kenobi's cloak like he has no clue what the fuck happened after he vanishes.

Though then again, Vader has no idea Kenobi and Luke only met like a week or whatever it was before Obi-Wan died. Maybe Darth was thinking they knew each other for years and Obi-Wan had trained him enough that Luke was able to go off on his own after Obi-Wan bit it.

This post has been edited by MyPantsAreOnFire: 27 August 2006 - 02:09 PM

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#4 User is offline   johnnycancer Icon

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 04:51 PM

QUOTE (MyPantsAreOnFire @ Aug 27 2006, 12:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Though then again, Vader has no idea Kenobi and Luke only met like a week or whatever it was before Obi-Wan died. Maybe Darth was thinking they knew each other for years and Obi-Wan had trained him enough that Luke was able to go off on his own after Obi-Wan bit it.


This is basically the same conclusion that I came to. I'm not sure if Vader made the connection between Luke and Obi-Wan right away - when they're on the Death Star the first time, Vader never really sees Luke and Obi-Wan together. Similarly, once Vader made the connection, he would have probably assumed that Obi-Wan started training Luke when he was pretty young (since Vader was pretty young when Obi-Wan began training him).

Now, that still doesn't account for why Vader and Palpatine don't seem to know about Yoda. Especially given what we know about the Jedi from the PT. There was a master computer with archives containing all kinds of information; I wouldn't be surprised if there had been files on every Jedi in existence. And also, it seems like a quick scan of the archives would also show that the planet Dagobah had been erased. All conjecture about Force abilities aside, we're supposed to believe that Vader and Palpatine never looked for Yoda because they didn't know Dagobah existed? But, they should have at least been able to infer that Yoda was still alive because all the other Jedi were dead; Obi-Wan and Yoda were the last Jedi left.

I like the explanation of dark energy hiding Yoda's own good force energy while he's on Dagobah; and I've always been curious what purpose the Dark Cave on Dagobah served. But, even given that explanation, it still seems odd that the Emperor and Vader don't seem to ever wonder where Yoda is.

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#5 User is offline   MyPantsAreOnFire Icon

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 06:20 PM

Those questions just back up that the idea of having Yoda on the Jedi Council is moronic.
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#6 User is offline   StarWarsIsUs Icon

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 07:07 PM

QUOTE
where they speak with one another, Vader goes on as if Kenobi is still somehow training Luke,


That's your own personal opinion of how he said it. All he said was one passing line about how Obi-Wan trained him well. That doesn't mean he is 'going on' like Obi-Wan is still alive.

Even IF: Vader knows Obi-Wan's spirit is still with Luke.
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#7 User is offline   johnnycancer Icon

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 12:20 AM

QUOTE (StarWarsIsUs @ Aug 27 2006, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Even IF: Vader knows Obi-Wan's spirit is still with Luke.


Well, this brings up an interesting point about Luke's training. There's been a lot of speculation about how much training Luke actually got from Yoda. Does anyone think that Luke got additional training from Obi-Wan in between ESB and ROTJ? I do; but the timeline presents a real problem, since it seems nobody can agree on exactly how much time actually passed between ESB and ROTJ.

Also, does Vader know that Obi-Wan came back as a force ghost? I think he does, but, is there anything in the series, OT or EU, that we can point to that would show Vader knew this for sure? I only ask because it seems like there were a lot of things Vader didn't know - like the fact that his children were alive and one of them was on Tatooine - and, if he couldn't use the Force to figure that out, would he be able to use the Force to figure out that Obi-Wan was still around helping Luke?

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#8 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 06:08 PM

If Luke was getting additional training from Obi-Wan why didn't he ask Obi-Wan about Vader being his father rather than waiting to ask Yoda later? I mean, Luke does, "Ben, why didn't you tell me?" Don't you think that'd be the first thing he'd ask?

So, it's doubtful that Luke got more training from Obi-Wan in between ESB & ROTJ.

And if Luke was angry at Obi-Wan, then that would've spoiled any other additional training from anyone.

I dunno. It's all fucked up.
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#9 User is offline   StarWarsIsUs Icon

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 10:59 PM

johnnycancer always brings up the core questions; most of which can't really be answered except through speculation.

But overall, I think we have to admit, like Cowboy Curtis, that:

QUOTE
It's all fucked up.

SecretShadow (SuperShadow's main adversary)

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#10 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 01:40 AM

Yes, in 1983 it became all fucked up. From 1977 until then were magical times.
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#11 User is offline   johnnycancer Icon

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 05:42 AM

QUOTE
And if Luke was angry at Obi-Wan, then that would've spoiled any other additional training from anyone.


Actually, this is something that has started to bug me, particularly in the PT movies, but, in a few instances in the OT as well. People have ridiculous and inhuman reactions to things.

Case in point: Why isn't Luke angry with Obi-Wan for basically lying to him about who his father is? I know they have that infamous conversation on the log, but that conversation is pretty ridiculous since it goes along the lines of something like this:

Luke: Obi-Wan! Why didn't you tell me Vader is my father?

Obi-Wan: Well...I didn't really feel like it.

Luke: Oh. Well, okay then.

Obi-Wan: Luke, these trivial matters of parentage are hardly as important as the fact that your father was a great pilot. Now, I want you to march back to that Death Star and kill your dad.

Luke: I can't kill my own father.

Obi-Wan: Pussy.

I mean, lord knows we probably shouldn't look too hard at the plot of any of the movies, but, this is really goofy. Luke should be a lot angrier about the fact that Obi-Wan, a person he trusted and admired told him an outright lie about his father's identity, and now that Luke has discovered the truth, Obi-Wan expects him to go out and kill his dad.

I don't know that Luke would be angry enough to refuse training from Obi-Wan, but, certainly the scenario warrants a more appropriate response than basically saying, "Yeah, that's cool."

Who knows though. I remember reading somewhere on this forum that ROTJ was not originally supposed to be the last movie and that according to the first drafts of the movies (actually, what I'm about to cite might have been attributed to the "Journal of the Whills") Luke was supposed to kill Vader and the Emperor, then don Vader's armor and take over the Empire. And it was in the next film where Leia was supposed to rescue Luke from the Dark Side.

So, maybe this whole "conversation on a log" scene is actually a remnant of that original plotline. It sure seems like something that could make Luke turn his back on the Jedi and embrace the Dark Side real quick, since the people who he trusted the most have been lying to him this whole time and just manipulating him to do their dirty work. Think about it; Obi-Wan wants Luke to kill Vader because Vader is basically Obi-Wan's mistake and he wants Luke to fix it; Obi-Wan says as much when he admits to Luke"My pride has had terrible consequences for the galaxy."

For all we know, this was always Obi-Wan's plan; keep an eye on Luke; train him as a Jedi; and once he's old enough, send him off to kill Darth Vader; and Luke would never even know he was killing his own father. Obi-Wan was just waiting for the opportune time to exert his influence on Luke. That would also explain why he keeps saying things about Anakin that we know aren't true - that he was a great pilot when he met him, etc. - Obi-Wan is just manipulating Luke's emotions so he can turn him into a Jedi killing machine!

Hmmm...this is really twisted now that I re-read it. It actually sounds more like what the plot for the PT should have been. Creepy...

johnnycancer

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I still like Obi-Wan, even if he is a liar.

This post has been edited by johnnycancer: 30 August 2006 - 05:55 AM

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#12 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 10:09 AM

QUOTE
I don't know that Luke would be angry enough to refuse training from Obi-Wan, but, certainly the scenario warrants a more appropriate response than basically saying, "Yeah, that's cool."


Right.

Also, I would figure that the whole "Vader is my father" thing would have to be dealt with before he began training with anybody. After all, he has to have a clear mind and all, right?

So, in one sense, ROTJ seems to say that Luke gained no training from Yoda or Obi-Wan between ESB and ROTJ.

QUOTE
I still like Obi-Wan, even if he is a liar.


I truly wish it didn't have to be this way. Do ALL characters have to have flaws? I mean... okay, before the whole "Anakin is Vader" thing, Obi-Wan already had a flaw. He messed up in properly training Vader. He was apologetic, you could tell in Guiness' acting.

Now, that whole "a character needs a flaw" thing is just a silly rationalisation point to explain the chocky, mishandled story development of George Lucas. I find that depressing. It set a bad precedence for the entire PT. Now because ROTJ allowed this level of "certain point of view" garbagola, it is easy to apply and utilize in the PT. Lucas could've given Obi-Wan antennae in the PT and every little fan boy would leap up and rationalize it. In some goof-ball gushers' minds, Lucas can do no wrong.

He can, he did, and it started with ROTJ. I am an unhappy consumer now of Star Wars.

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 30 August 2006 - 10:12 AM

Flying Ferret

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All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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#13 User is offline   miladyblue Icon

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 10:20 AM

Johnny Cancer, I was the one who heard that Journal of the Whills bit from a friend, whom I noted is notoriously full of shit. Namely because, though he claimed to read this work, he was unable to produce it for anyone ELSE to read, having conveniently "lost the book." Said book's existence is further in doubt, because I have scoured used book stores and databases galore since getting online and as far as I have been able to discover, it does not even exist. The search goes on, however.

Dark Horse comics, a British company, did a series of comic books that seem to have been based on that story idea.

However, considering the storytelling "abilities" Mr. Lucas just revealed to us in the PT, I would not be surprised if something even WORSE was supposed to happen after RotJ. wacko.gif
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#14 User is offline   Darth Player Icon

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 10:32 AM

I would not be surprised if something even WORSE was supposed to happen after RotJ. wacko.gif


Something WORSE did happen, the two made for TV (well, in the USA anyway) Ewok movies. I'm perplexed as to why they don't get the panning the Star War Holiday Special gets.
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#15 User is offline   johnnycancer Icon

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 03:09 PM

QUOTE
Johnny Cancer, I was the one who heard that Journal of the Whills bit from a friend, whom I noted is notoriously full of shit. Namely because, though he claimed to read this work, he was unable to produce it for anyone ELSE to read, having conveniently "lost the book." Said book's existence is further in doubt, because I have scoured used book stores and databases galore since getting online and as far as I have been able to discover, it does not even exist. The search goes on, however.

Dark Horse comics, a British company, did a series of comic books that seem to have been based on that story idea.


Ah okay. Well thanks for coming forward miLADYblue (*giggle* see, "How did Vader pee?" if that's not funny to you); honestly, I couldn't remember if it was you or Helena that had brought up the Journal of the Whills, so at least that question won't torment me anymore.

I've done some very brief searches for the Journal of the Whills myself, and, like you, I've basically come to the same conclusion that no such book exists. I believe most people attribute the rumors about this book to the fact that the novelization of the first Star Wars movie, A New Hope, came out before the movie did, which confused some people, causing them the impression that Star Wars was based on a book (or series of books).

But then again, isn't Yoda supposed to be one of the Whills? I don't know how old this rumor about the Journal of the Whills is - but, if it's as old as the OT, then, it's difficult to explain how people would have known who the Whills are since Yoda doesn't show up until ESB. Also, when was it offcially said that Yoda was a Whill? We certainly didn't find that out in the movies; I don't know what might have been in the books.

Not that any of this proves anything; it's just strange if the timeline goes like this: the Star Wars novelization is published; Star Wars Episode IV comes out in theatres; there are rumors that the Star Wars series is actually stolen from an existing series of books called the Journal of the Whills; ESB and ROTJ are released; and then sometime in the late 80's or early 90's we find out that Yoda is supposed to be a member of the race, the Whills. I mean, Lucas or someone might have just incorporated the whole idea of the Whills into the Star Wars universe because it had become ingrained in the lore of Star Wars fans. But still, it is a bit strange...

Also, the Dark Horse series you're talking about is Dark Empire, right? That ran between 1991 and 1992; so the rumor has to at least predate that, right? Anyway, just a lot of funny coincidences that don't add up to anything.


Back to Obi-Wan for a second

QUOTE
Do ALL characters have to have flaws?


Yeah, this is stupid. Obi-Wan's flaw was that he was too proud to admit that he wasn't on the same level as Yoda, and this pride gave birth to Darth Vader. The fact that Obi-Wan lies to Luke about Vader being his father isn't the point; the point is, he never explains why. All it would have taken was one or two lines of dialogue with Obi-Wan saying, "Luke, I lied to protect you from a truth that would surely cause you a lot of pain and would prevent you from finishing your Jedi training." or something to that effect. But the way it's done in the movies, it's as if Obi-Wan just withheld the truth on a whim. It was supposed to be to protect Luke and Leia.

Of course, the whole line of reasoning about lying to protect Luke and Leia works a lot better if Vader is actually out searching for them. But, he doesn't know he has a son until in between ANH and ESB; he doesn't know he has a daughter until ROTJ; and the search doesn't begin until ESB; so, there's not much justificaiton for a childhood of lies there.

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