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Vader

#1 User is offline   a_jedi_trait Icon

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 02:01 PM

In episode 5 when vader finds out he has a son doesnt he realise that the dream he had of Padme was him turning to the darkside and Padme dying at child birth and the baby was alive?
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#2 User is offline   MyPantsAreOnFire Icon

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 03:32 PM

Kindasortamaybe.

Yes.

And no.
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#3 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 04:24 PM

Bah! All these plot holes! Anakin/Vader never knew he had children. Showing Padme about to explode in EP III was all wrong. When you read the Star Wars trilogy books, you get the feeling that Vader didn't know he had children at all. Heck! He didn't even know that he was tailing his own son on the DeathStar in EP IV, only to shoot him down. However, the Emporer knew that he had children and it was best to keep them away at all costs. Vader only realized who it was in between EP IV and V. By EP V, he wanted to meet up with him and get rid of the Emporer. The Emporer knew this too, but it was limited. He only knew that the Sith tradition had to continue in the order of master and apprentice. Palpatine was proud of the tradition, not so much Vader wanting his son to rule with him. Remember, Palpatine wanted Luke for himself really.
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#4 User is offline   johnnycancer Icon

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 06:37 PM

QUOTE (yukai_ondori @ Aug 26 2006, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Vader only realized who it was in between EP IV and V. By EP V, he wanted to meet up with him and get rid of the Emporer. The Emporer knew this too, but it was limited. He only knew that the Sith tradition had to continue in the order of master and apprentice. Palpatine was proud of the tradition, not so much Vader wanting his son to rule with him. Remember, Palpatine wanted Luke for himself really.



I always forget about that particular detail; that Vader wanted to overthrow the Emperor with his son. I mean, he says as much at the end of ESB. But, at the time, we didn't know how the whole Sith tradition worked either. Like a lot of people, I thought the title "Dark Lord of the Sith" meant that Vader was some type of monarch who ruled over a race called the Sith. While, I suppose this is technically true if you consult some of the EU materials, it's hardly true in the OT or the PT. Anyway, if we'd known the whole, "one master, one student" thing, then, this particular subplot might have been more obvious at the time.

But, back to the topic. No, Vader did not know he had children. Yukai_Ondori is right. Vader only comes to realize he has a son sometime in between ANH and ESB. He doesn't even know he has a daughter until almost the end of ROTJ. That's why the end of ESB and the duel between Luke and Vader on Bespin is so important; that's Vader's big play for power. He got to Luke before Palpatine did, and if he'd gotten Luke to turn, they would have overthrown the Emperor. At the end of ROTJ, when Luke and Vader duel a second time, it's essentially a contest that Palpatine has set up to decide who will be the successor to the Sith tradition.
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#5 User is offline   miladyblue Icon

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 03:22 AM

While I was in line on opening day of RotJ, I read the novelization, and during the infamous "A certain point of view" portion of Obi Wan's talk, he says baldly to Luke, "He didn't know she was pregnant when he left."

I can't remember if there was more to that particular little talk, because I can't find my copy of the RotJ novelization ANYWHERE. wacko.gif
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#6 User is offline   johnnycancer Icon

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 04:58 AM

QUOTE (miladyblue @ Aug 27 2006, 01:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
While I was in line on opening day of RotJ, I read the novelization, and during the infamous "A certain point of view" portion of Obi Wan's talk, he says baldly to Luke, "He didn't know she was pregnant when he left."

I can't remember if there was more to that particular little talk, because I can't find my copy of the RotJ novelization ANYWHERE. wacko.gif



Well, this makes more sense, as far as what I thought I knew about Vader until the PT came out. Anakin and Obi-Wan were war buddies; we know that from ANH; they fought in the Clone Wars together. I assumed that, when the Clone Wars started, Anakin was stationed far from home, and he asked Obi-Wan to keep an eye on his wife (we didn't know Jedi couldn't get married at the time). When Anakin leaves, he doesn't know that his wife is pregnant; and the children are born while he's gone. Because there's a war going on, personal communications don't travel so quickly, so, nobody is actually able to tell Anakin what's going on at home.

Then, during a battle on their home planet, Anakin's wife is killed. Obi-Wan is able to save the children, and he leaves them in the care of one of his political allies, Senator Organa (or whatever title he might have had then). After doing this, Obi-Wan leaves to find Anakin and tell him that he's a father, and his wife is dead.

When Obi-Wan finally finds Anakin, he discovers that Anakin has turned to the Dark Side and has been hunting down Jedi and killing them. So, knowing that Anakin's children could grow up to be powerful Dark Side Jedis if Anakin were allowed to influence them, Obi-Wan devises a plan (along with Yoda) to hide Anakin's children from him.

Well anyway, the PT totally blew my Vader backstory all to hell; but, at least knowing what's in the books, I can sleep well because my version at least matches up better with existing Star Wars storylines.

johnnycancer
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#7 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 12:41 PM

Johnnycancer's last post was always what I thought too. Awesome! Only until AOTC did we see that Jedi weren't allowed relationships of a physical sort "because it brings jealousy" ...please. I originaly thought the Jedi order to be like a non-corrupt samurai class. You could marry if you wanted or just stay celibate and train, defend, kill Sith, whatever. Like I said, plotholes! All these wierd rules came out with the PT and what we knew from various books and the OT was smashed to pieces and it left some of us fans asking more questions after Ep III rather than having them answered. Well, George "Butcher for a Buck" Lucas's failure is complete.
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#8 User is offline   miladyblue Icon

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 10:14 AM

The idea of "love brings jealousy and possessiveness" indicates to me that someone is STILL smarting over a nasty divorce.
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#9 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 06:29 PM

That possessive crap made no sense in EP III because as soon as I heard that, I just wondered about lightsabers, robes, underwear. Does Anakin never use the same lightsaber twice? Do no Jedi have anything of their own now? They craft their own lightsabers don't they? It's theirs then, hence having a possession. As Obi-wan stated, that lightsaber is Anakin's life! Now it sounds like the Jedi code is leaning toward communism. No one has anything because they all have everything, together. .....please! And the "evil dicatator" Palpatine wasn't even around to make this crap up.
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