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Is ROTJ better than 'The Phantom Menace'? The age-old question. (Part One of Three)

Poll: Is ROTJ better than 'The Phantom Menace'?

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#16 User is offline   MyPantsAreOnFire Icon

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 02:04 PM

QUOTE (Storm @ Aug 27 2006, 01:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
An entire movie dedicated to rescuing Han from Jabba? Have you lost your mind? There are so many things in Jabba's palace that just don't work or make any sense, such as:

1. Luke uses force grip to choke the guards. I'm pretty sure Jedi aren't supposed to use this, and who the hell trained him how to do it anyway? Yoda?
2. The fact that Luke has this "great plan" to rescue Han, yet all he does is show up and attempt to use the Jedi Mind trick on Jabba. Well thought out!
3. Droids being tortured.
4. Lando, who probably was on Jabba's hit list at one point, manages to sneak in and become one of the guards by using the worst disguise ever! It's so obvious it is him!
5. The singing. Can't say I am a big fan of "Jedi Rocks".
6. Boba Fett's fluke death. Reminds me of how Anakin destroyed the Droid Control Ship in TPM.
7. Han holding no grudge vs. Lando for completely betraying him. I understand Lando is trying to save his life, but you would expect Han would at least make a comment regarding Lando's betrayal after he was released from the carbon freeze.
8. If Jabba had any brains, then why didn't he just get his guards to shoot Han, Luke, and Chewie? Like Count Dooku and the Geonosis Arena in AOTC, Jabba must have really had his mind set on feeding them to the Sarlaac Pit.
9. In general, the whole sequence of events in Jabba's palace is just plain silly and extremely boring. There's a reason why ESB is the best movie.... there is NO Tatooine in it. Tatooine is such a boring setting for anything to take place.


I think it's a safe bet that the suggestion of an entire movie about Han's rescue would require Jabba and his crew done better than what we actually saw. Nobody wants THAT stretched out any further.

I agree with everything you posted except two...why would Lando be on Jabba's hit list? That's a complete guess on your part. And secondly, I think the deaths of both Fetts are the most brilliant things Lucas ever did, on purpose or not. Build these guys up, make them look unspeakably cool, then whack them both as quick and as pathetically as possible. Best "fuck YOU, fanboys" possible...hilarious! I never want the Fetts to not suck. They're useless and I prefer them dead.

Though I'd add the rampant and disturbing sexism in ROTJ as one of my major complaints. I know the bad guy lusting after the ladies is a staple of crappy sci-fi/fantasy and the old film serials, but Lucas takes it to all new heights of creepiness. I don't think it's any coincidence that what we ended up seeing on the screen was SO hateful and degrading to women and his marriage was falling apart at the time.
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#17 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 09:21 PM

QUOTE (StarWarsIsUs @ Aug 25 2006, 04:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Despite all the blatant flaws in Return of the Jedi, I have wondered this morning (While actually watching ROTJ)...

That's right. You were watching it.

Other than what happened to be televised in the States tonight (gack!), and Other than Storm,
Anybody watch a prequel film lately?

"Combined." cool.gif
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#18 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 11:23 PM

I really depends on what you want out of a movie. If I want to be bored to death for 80% of the movie, I'll watch TPM, AOTC, ANH, and ROTJ. If I want to watch a solid, relatively serious movie, I will watch ESB. If I want a movie that has lots of lightsaber battles and ridiculously funny dialogue which is hilarious to re-enact with my brother while washing dishes, I will watch ROTS.

ANH...oh wait, "Star Wars", may be a solid movie, but it's boring. Everything that occurs on Tatooine sucks.

Aside: I'm never going to get why people still call ANH "Star Wars". I understand it was initially called that, but big deal. ESB was also a "Star Wars" movie. For the sake of properly classifying, you must refer to it as "A New Hope".

That would be like me listing the original Star Trek movies as follows....

1. Star Trek: The Motion Picture
2. Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
3. Star Trek: The Search for Spock
4. Star Trek: The Voyage Home
5. Star Trek
6. Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country

And then telling someone "Star Trek is the worst movie!" only to immediately have this person respond "Which Star Trek movie? Be more specific".

Dumb, dumb, dumb.....

This post has been edited by Storm: 27 August 2006 - 11:35 PM

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#19 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 01:07 AM

QUOTE (Storm @ Aug 27 2006, 11:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
you must refer to it as "A New Hope".

No I mustn't. You know what I'm talking about.
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#20 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 01:47 AM

QUOTE (Despondent @ Aug 28 2006, 02:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No I mustn't. You know what I'm talking about.

Okay, I don't think I have made my point clear, so let's try this. Answer my question below with one of the following responses.

A. Episode I
B. Episode II
C. Episode III
D. Episode IV
E. Episode V
F. Episode VI

Question: In my opinion, Star Wars had the best lightsaber battle in it. Which episode am I refering to?
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#21 User is offline   johnnycancer Icon

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 02:51 AM

QUOTE
Well, we could have some really good barfights on Tatooine if we went back to the Mos Iesly Cantina. It could get pretty crazy in there with a blind Han Solo with a gun, a poorly disguised Lando with a bounty on his head, and a dabling in the dark side Luke. Just imagine the riot in there that pours out into the street! They'd catch it on film and name it something like "When good Star Wars moments go bad! Caught on tape! Uncessored and Raw!!!"


God damn it! Let's Make This!

johnnycancer
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#22 User is offline   diligent_d Icon

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Posted 28 August 2006 - 11:00 AM

A bit off topic, but I just watched ROTJ again last night - for the first time in a long while. Although the Ewoks still piss me off, they aren't as badly done as I remember. The costume folks did strive to make them look suffeciently ugly and deformed enough to believe that they could actually be a real species - albeit an inbread species. Most, save for little Wicket, have crooked teeth and cross-eyes and do generally look fierce - despite their teddy bear stature.

After watching Jedi, though I still wish they would have used Wookies rather than Ewoks, I realize that these guys beat Gungans any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
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#23 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 07:51 PM

QUOTE (Storm @ Aug 27 2006, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
An entire movie dedicated to rescuing Han from Jabba? Have you lost your mind? There are so many things in Jabba's palace that just don't work or make any sense, such as:

1. Luke uses force grip to choke the guards. I'm pretty sure Jedi aren't supposed to use this, and who the hell trained him how to do it anyway? Yoda?


you learn how to manipulate the force and move things with your mind... at what point do you need lessons in choking someone, any more than you need lessons physically choking someone?

the jedi aren't suppose to use this? says who?

QUOTE (Storm @ Aug 27 2006, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
2. The fact that Luke has this "great plan" to rescue Han, yet all he does is show up and attempt to use the Jedi Mind trick on Jabba. Well thought out!


given that he sent R2D2 in ahead with his lighsabre ready for launching, i don't think that was his plan. he was giving jabba the chance (several times) to give in and not be slughtered.

there's your precious jedi code for you.

QUOTE (Storm @ Aug 27 2006, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
3. Droids being tortured.


well, no defence there... that makes no sense at all... the best argument i could come up with is that they were screaming out fear of their warrenty being voided, and i don't really buy that.

even if their programmed sense of self presevation (that they clearly display all through out the OT) they'd still know they can be esily repaired.

QUOTE (Storm @ Aug 27 2006, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
4. Lando, who probably was on Jabba's hit list at one point, manages to sneak in and become one of the guards by using the worst disguise ever! It's so obvious it is him!


again, allthough nothing points towards it as such, i was always under the impression that jabba would have known Lando. he could have at least worn a fake beard and some glasses.

QUOTE (Storm @ Aug 27 2006, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
5. The singing. Can't say I am a big fan of "Jedi Rocks".


if that's the name of the song in the special eddition there's no point mentioning it.

QUOTE (Storm @ Aug 27 2006, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
6. Boba Fett's fluke death. Reminds me of how Anakin destroyed the Droid Control Ship in TPM.


i was far more offended by him being there at all... although im sure Jabba probably dished out alot of bounties... but then again... showing him as a kid in AOTC for NO REASON AT ALL then not having him mentioned even slightly in ROTS was downright offensive and utterly redundant.

QUOTE (Storm @ Aug 27 2006, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
7. Han holding no grudge vs. Lando for completely betraying him. I understand Lando is trying to save his life, but you would expect Han would at least make a comment regarding Lando's betrayal after he was released from the carbon freeze.


not as certain as i am that chewbacca explained everything in the cell.

QUOTE (Storm @ Aug 27 2006, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
8. If Jabba had any brains, then why didn't he just get his guards to shoot Han, Luke, and Chewie? Like Count Dooku and the Geonosis Arena in AOTC, Jabba must have really had his mind set on feeding them to the Sarlaac Pit.


there's not much point having a sarlac if you're not going to use it. i doubt all those roman hedonistic emporers often took the stand 'nah, sod the lions, let's just stab these christians... bollocks to everyone's entertainment'

this guy was a big fat rich asshole with toys and pets who like to be entertained and heaps of people over all the time because they knew the dude could put on a show.

don't get me wrong, I would have shot them. but i'm not Jabba or rich.

QUOTE (Storm @ Aug 27 2006, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
9. In general, the whole sequence of events in Jabba's palace is just plain silly and extremely boring. There's a reason why ESB is the best movie.... there is NO Tatooine in it. Tatooine is such a boring setting for anything to take place.


that's down to personal taste... personaly i don't mind it. it is slow moving, but it beast the shit out of riding nabooian buffalow and giglling in the grass... at least Han and Liea never brought the story to a screaching hault with picknick and dinner scene.

ROTJ is a definate droop in the trilogy, but it least it vaguley resembles a star wars film. a bunch of kids running around with lightsabres, chewbacca chillin with yoda, and someone wearing a darth vader suit doesn't really cover it. If it didn't work for the holiday special, it's not going to work for a bunch of films made 20 years later with little to any attention paid to the originals.

they're not even close... the only real tie in is that the wookies of kashyyyk belonged in ROTJ and the Ewoks in ROTS.
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#24 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 08:09 PM

QUOTE (Storm @ Aug 27 2006, 11:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Aside: I'm never going to get why people still call ANH "Star Wars". I understand it was initially called that, but big deal. ESB was also a "Star Wars" movie. For the sake of properly classifying, you must refer to it as "A New Hope".

That would be like me listing the original Star Trek movies as follows....

1. Star Trek: The Motion Picture
2. Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
3. Star Trek: The Search for Spock
4. Star Trek: The Voyage Home
5. Star Trek
6. Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country

And then telling someone "Star Trek is the worst movie!" only to immediately have this person respond "Which Star Trek movie? Be more specific".

Dumb, dumb, dumb.....


dumb dumb dumb alright.


Star Wars is the name of the first film. just like First Blood. just because other people gave it a nick name like a New Hope or rambo 1, doesn't mean i have to...

i prefer to adress films by their name.

it goes like this...

Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, Return of the jedi.

that's it.

This post has been edited by barend: 25 September 2006 - 08:12 PM

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#25 User is offline   TruJade Icon

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 01:34 PM

OK people enough of this tomfoolery!!!
Everyone who is anyone knows that the order from good, bad to worse of the STAR WARS movie is:
Episode:ROTJ
Episode:ROTS
Episode:AOTC
Episode:ESB
Episode:ANH
Episode:TPM
That is just the way it is people deal with it! the fact that a comparison was made as to which one was better between ROTJ and TPM is mind boggling!!
i've never been more scared for the STAR WARS race of fans than i am right now.
I admit there is much room for discussion on the top 3 or 4. for me they r constantly changing but the worst movie remains the same. It is and always will be (unless there r an Episodes7,8,9) The Phantom Menace. Why...... seven words, Jar Jar Binks and Jake friggin' Lloyd.

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and it holds everything together


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#26 User is offline   mireaux7 Icon

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 03:02 AM

The real question here is: Is ROTJ Special Edition better than the Original Theatrical Release?...The answer is NO...well,.thats my answer anyways,..to each his/her own.

My list of the saga: #1:ESB #2:ANH #3:ROTS #4:ROTJ #5:AOTC #6:TPM
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#27 User is offline   diligent_d Icon

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 02:23 PM

QUOTE
Everyone who is anyone knows that the order from good, bad to worse of the STAR WARS movie is:
Episode:ROTJ
Episode:ROTS
Episode:AOTC
Episode:ESB
Episode:ANH
Episode:TPM


WTF?
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#28 User is offline   miladyblue Icon

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 06:56 PM

So who is "everyone"? Who is "anyone"?

The only time I watch the PT is when I feel particularly vicious and want to rip something deserving into bloody, quivering shreds. The PT is helpful when certain politicians are unwilling to serve in that capacity.

As for the OT with the "new improved" CGI additions get nothing but snide comments whenever possible. To me, again, it is like a masterpiece that has been given a makeover by the the most tacky designer/decorator ever - "Well, Mona Lisa will look much MUCH better with the new, brighter colors and a modern upswept 'do!"

As for the original question posed by this thread, my vote is still, while RotJ sucks, its sucking power can only clean a modest sized room, while TPM could clean most of the Queen of England's estates with ITS sucking power.
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#29 User is offline   TruJade Icon

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 09:36 PM

everyone who is anyone is ALL the STAR WARS loving people as for the claim of which is worse
how could u possible believe ROTJ is BAD!!!! really! i find that so hard to believe.
the lines in TPM are way cheeser and it's all flash and no substance. ROTJ is a beautiful work of film. sure i admit the ewoks could be viewed as akward but Luke telling Leia the truth of there 'special connection', the defeat of the Empire or Darth Vader coming back to the lightside. All things that make this movie great.

Duct tape is like the force....

There's a lightside, a darkside

and it holds everything together


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#30 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 28 September 2006 - 10:27 PM

All I can say in defence to ROTJ is read the book. Every now and then, I will read all the "substance" of ROTJ and think, "Man! That is art! This is awesome!" I start reading where Luke visits Yoda and I skip all the Ewok crap. Just like when I watch the film. It's a clipshow of the most important themes. Seriously, read the book and you will see for yourself the absolute destruction of the PT right there! ROTJ is the ending of the original story in which all the prequals should have led up to.

As for clipshows, the entire PT is a clipshow to me. If I pop in one of the DVD's, I am not going to sit all the way through it.
Ep I, Darth Maul only
Ep II, Start the film from Kamino, watch what makes some sense, don't finish.
Ep III, Start when Anakin and Palps kill Windu, skip slow stuff, watch Anakin get butchered.



Oh, this pertains to Star Wars but is off topic: KOTOR was the best game I have ever played!!! Had it for a year on Xbox, never got around to it. Quit my job (not for gaming), played through, had a great time.
HK-47 should kill the Gungans himself. He's qualified. happy.gif
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