[Darth Player]

Because of the uselessness of the PT, we examine the OT in a different light, and yet nothing adds up overall. In the pre-PT world, Vader leads the team that seizes the Rebel Blockade Runner but doesn't manage to get the data which is hidden in R2 as we know. I guess we can infer that he had tro be summoned to the Death Star to report firsthand on the search for the data. But thanks to the PT, we face the dilemma as to why Vader, a local boy, wouldn't have overseen the search himself for the data, especially after we're told he built one of the droids that's budies with the one carrying the information! And how could the PT Vader NOT drop in to visit Shmi's grave or take Owen and Beru to task for hocking the headstone for scrap value? God, the PT stinks!

[miladyblue]

Interesting questions, especially given his familiarity with local customs and languages, according to the PT. But he did NOT know that Threepio was one of the droids he was pursuing.

Since the sensor post aboard the Imperial ship that tracked the lifepod did not register any life forms, they probably presumed, once the report was in that the data was not in the main computer, that the lifepod had been launched with the plans aboard it.

Perhaps high ranking officers did not/were not permitted to go down onto planets on "away missions" because no one wanted to risk their Captains/Commanding officers - since we never know exactly what rank Vader actually holds in ANH.

Well the PT Vader - Threepio connection seems to "answer" another big mystery from ESB, namely that Vader prevented Boba Fett from firing on Chewie who was freaking out about Han being turned into a really weird piece of modern art furniture. Gads, could there have been a BETTER reason that Vader showed at least one moment of decency other than, "Oops, I don't want this son of Jango "Klutz" Fett blowing up my droid buddy?"

I think the only way I can enjoy Star Wars is to pretend I woke up from a terrible nightmare, and that is the only place where the PT existed.

[StarWarsIsUs]

Vader didn't build the astromech droid R2-D2. He built Threepio, which had nothing to do with holding the information.

And Anakin Skywalker as we knew him, while he still had compassionate feelings, is far removed from the evil, twisted, mechanical Vader we know in the OT. I doubt he would have cared about visiting his mother's grave.

[Despondent]

He ain't the same, you got that right.

[Darth Player]

Vader didn't build the astromech droid R2-D2. He built Threepio, which had nothing to do with holding the information.

And Anakin Skywalker as we knew him, while he still had compassionate feelings, is far removed from the evil, twisted, mechanical Vader we know in the OT. I doubt he would have cared about visiting his mother's grave.

I never said Anakin/Vader built R2, but he was paired up with the same droid he supposedly built. I find it hard to fathom (based on the PT screed) that Vader wouldn't have popped down to Tattooine on occassion for a visit, using the search as a prextect to get there.

[johnnycancer]

When Vader and the Stormtroopers board the Tantine IV, do they know that they're looking specifically for a protocol droid and an R2 unit? And, more to the point, based on what we've seen in the 6 films so far, human-droid relations don't seem to be very warm. Anakin did build C3PO, but, based on attitudes we see in the films, this might be the equivalent of assembling a toaster or a vacuum cleaner. Droids seem to be pretty generic as far as most people are concerned; for Luke's Uncle Owen for example, one R2 unit is as good as another. So, maybe Vader wouldn't have recognized C3PO.

Incidentally, do droids have any connection to the Force? For example, in the same way that Vader is able to sense the presence of Obi-Wan, would he be able to sense C3PO's presence?

As far at the Tattoooine connection, it does seem odd that Vader wouldn't have gone down to the planet to oversee the search since he knew the area and the language. I tend to agree with the explanation that he needed to report to the Death Star immediately. But, that doesn't answer the question of why not use it as a pretext to go down to Tattooine?

It could be that Vader simply didn't want to go. Why would he want to relive the death of his mother - one of his greatest failures as Anakin Skywalker?

[Despondent]

You can't be serious. The older films predate the new universe, so of course there are going to be major inconsistencies. In Episode four, from the audience's point of view (far as I'm concerned) Vader doesn't know a damn thing about Tattooine. It just works better that way. ("Well nobody told him onscreen that they were above Tattooine! Therefore it never happened and he didn't know." )

Now if you're a prequel purist, you may have thought that the Whammykin of GACK! Clones! would have taken pursuit of the droids in another pod. Doesn't that sound like him? And of course he'd have sensed his Creation, not to mention HIS DAUGHTER prior to that.
If the inconsistencies in the older films bothers you, blame THEIR creator for not giving YOU something CONSISTENT after twenty years.

[StarWarsIsUs]

You can't be serious. The older films predate the new universe, so of course there are going to be major inconsistencies. In Episode four, from the audience's point of view (far as I'm concerned) Vader doesn't know a damn thing about Tattooine. It just works better that way. ("Well nobody told him onscreen that they were above Tattooine! Therefore it never happened and he didn't know." )

This opens up another question.

Hypothetically speaking: If Tarkin had ordered Tatooine to be destroyed, to get Luke to talk, would Vader have let Tarkin give the order to fire?

[johnnycancer]

Hypothetically speaking: If Tarkin had ordered Tatooine to be destroyed, to get Luke to talk, would Vader have let Tarkin give the order to fire?

My gut feeling on that is, if Tarkin had ordered Tatooine destroyed, Vader wouldn't have cared. At that point, the only reason I can think of that Vader would object is if Luke was on Tatooine and would die when the planet blew up. But, if Luke is already in Imperial custody, then, I don't see it being a problem.

But, I'll admit, it's been a while since I've seen Episodes I and II, so, I can't exactly remember Anakin/Vader's connection to Tatooine. I remember the basics: Anakin was born there; he and his mother, Shmi, were slaves owned by Watto; while Anakin was off with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, Watto sold Shmi to Cliegg; Shmi and Cliegg were married; Cliegg's son was Owen, so, Shmi became Owen's stepmother and Anakin now had a stepbrother; and, finally, Shmi was kidnapped and killed by Sand People (Tusken Raiders?).

So, by the time Episode IV happens, the only ties Vader has to Tatooine are a son (which he may or may not be aware of at that point) and a stepbrother that he barely knows. Assuming his son is safe, I don't really see Vader trying to postpone the destruction of a planet just because his stepbrother is on it.


johnnycancer

This post has been edited by johnnycancer: 20 August 2006 - 04:37 PM

[StarWarsIsUs]

That's a good argument, and I agree. But there is also the fact that he knows his mother was buried there, and that was the place where she raised him.

I have to lean toward your opinion, however: He wouldn't have cared either way.

Anyone have a rebuttle against this?

[Darth Player]

When Vader and the Stormtroopers board the Tantine IV, do they know that they're looking specifically for a protocol droid and an R2 unit? And, more to the point, based on what we've seen in the 6 films so far, human-droid relations don't seem to be very warm. Anakin did build C3PO, but, based on attitudes we see in the films, this might be the equivalent of assembling a toaster or a vacuum cleaner. Droids seem to be pretty generic as far as most people are concerned; for Luke's Uncle Owen for example, one R2 unit is as good as another. So, maybe Vader wouldn't have recognized C3PO.

Incidentally, do droids have any connection to the Force? For example, in the same way that Vader is able to sense the presence of Obi-Wan, would he be able to sense C3PO's presence?

As far at the Tattoooine connection, it does seem odd that Vader wouldn't have gone down to the planet to oversee the search since he knew the area and the language. I tend to agree with the explanation that he needed to report to the Death Star immediately. But, that doesn't answer the question of why not use it as a pretext to go down to Tattooine?

It could be that Vader simply didn't want to go. Why would he want to relive the death of his mother - one of his greatest failures as Anakin Skywalker?

In TPM Anakin says something to the effect that he's going to miss Threpio because he was a great friend, so it seems Anakin has a special fondness for Threepio at least. Its odd that in Episodes II and III< he doesn't seem to acknowledge Threepio in the slightest, instead relying heavily on R2 the way Luke did in the OT.

A check of the ship's manifest would have yielded masic information about the number of passengers and droids, and sifting through the wreckage and the dead, they could see who was missing and who may have fled. Its basic deduction, and yet Vader leaves presumably to smooth things over with the Imperial Senate ("leave that to me, send a distress signal and inform that everyone on board was killed" or the like). Makes sense from an OT point of view, but saying Vader was from Tattooine throws a wrench in the works because I'm sure something in the core of his being would have summoned him down to Tattooine, even if its to show everyone that he's now a high up in the Empire.

[johnnycancer]

In TPM Anakin says something to the effect that he's going to miss Threpio because he was a great friend, so it seems Anakin has a special fondness for Threepio at least. Its odd that in Episodes II and III< he doesn't seem to acknowledge Threepio in the slightest, instead relying heavily on R2 the way Luke did in the OT.

You know what, now that you mention that I remember it as well. Well, if that's the case, then, Vader probably would have recognized C3PO. And, if the Imperials searched the data banks of the Tantine IV, which as you point out, would make a lot of sense, there's a good chance they would have noticed that they couldn't account for two droids: one protocol droid named C3PO and an R2 unit. And, Vader did name C3PO, right? So he would have recognized the name.

Makes sense from an OT point of view, but saying Vader was from Tattooine throws a wrench in the works because I'm sure something in the core of his being would have summoned him down to Tattooine, even if its to show everyone that he's now a high up in the Empire.

Did anyone outside of the Emperor and Obi-Wan know that Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader were the same person? The impression that I get from the films is that, for all intents and purposes, most people would have thought that Obi-Wan killed Anakin during their lightsaber battle on Mustafar. Even at the end of Revenge of the Sith, Obi-Wan probably isn't aware that Anakin survived and became Darth Vader. Certainly Obi-Wan and Yoda would have made the connection pretty quickly, but they knew all of the background from the Clone Wars and Anakin's seduction by the Dark Side. Would average people make the connection?

I only bring this up because Vader going to Tatooine to show people he became a high ranking Imperial leader only makes sense if it's common knowledge that Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are the same person. And also, who was living on Tatooine at that point in time who would have remembered Anakin Skywalker? I'm guessing that the Hutt who sold Shmi and Anakin to Watto was dead; Watto could have been alive, but, would he have remembered Anakin? Did Owen even know that Anakin was Darth Vader? Is that why he didn't want Luke to be a pilot? Because Luke would join the Imperial army and Vader would find him?

Anyway, I don't think Vader needed to prove anything to anyone at that point; it seemed like a highly guarded secret that Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader were the same person; and there was nobody on Tatooine who would have remembered Anaking Skywalker anyway. So, I don't think he would have gone down to Tatooine for that.

But, assuming that Vader and his Stormtroopers knew that they were looking for two droids - one R2 unit and one protocol droid named C3PO - and they knew that those two droids were more than likely on an escape pod which landed on Tatooine, it does seem like Vader would have gone down to the planet to supervise the search. After all, he was supposed to be in charge of finding the Death Star plans and the rebels who stole them.

Here's some possible explanations:

1) The Imperial Council: The most obvious, Vader had to report to the Imperial Council and so he didn't have time to supervise a ground search on Tatooine.

2) Leia in Custody: Vader had Leia Organa in custody. He might have thought that it was more important to transport Leia to the Death Star and interrogate her than search for the droids. Since Leia was an important political prisoner, Vader may also have thought that she was too much of a flight risk to transport without being under his supervision. (As a separate question: Does Vader know that Leia is his daughter at this point? I don't think that he does, since he seems to discover it for the first time in Return of the Jedi.)

3) The Droids Aren't on Tatooine: Vader may have actually thought that the droids were not on Tatooine and that the escape pod was just a diversion. So, to cover his bases, he sends Stormtroopers down to Tatooine to search, but Vader really expects the droids to be in some other locatoin. Leia, being a Rebel leader, would have known the true location of the droids with the plans. And once again, that leads back to the interrogation on the Death Star, not Tatooine.

4) Imperial Protocol: Someone else suggested this, but, I think it makes the most sense of all possible explanations. Imperial protocol probably prohibited its high ranking officers from going down onto a planet's surface. Most likely, this was a new regulation that had been implemented as Rebel attacks on the Empire intensified. The Empire probably didn't want to find its officers being held hostage while Rebels made demands for their release.

5) Vader's Pride: Vader might have actually thought that it was beneath him to have to go down and supervise a search on a planet that was well known for being the "armpit of the universe" and that's why he delegated the responsibility to some low ranking officers and a couple of Stormtroopers.

6) Shmi's Remains: This is reaching a bit, but, Shmi was cremated, basically, right? So, where did the remains go? I'm not sure what the customs of Tatooine were, but, Vader might have his mother's ashes with him already. If that's the case, then, he didn't need to go down to Tatooine to visit his mother's remains.

7) The Plans Aren't Important: Again, reaching a bit, but, what if the search for the plans was just a pretense to arrest Princess Leia and destroy Alderaan, a planet which the Empire knew to be a hotbed of rebel activity? Since none of the Imperial officers seemed to believe the Death Star could be destroyed, even if the Rebels had gotten plans for the station, it wouldn't have mattered.

But then again, there's at least three good reasons why Vader should have gone down to Tatooine:

1) Luke Skywalker: Vader is good with The Force; in fact, if we're to believe the thing about the midi-chlorians, then Vader is the most powerful Jedi i the universe. So, chances are, he was able to use the force to sense that his son was on Tatooine. Even if he didn't know it was his son, Vader should have been able to "sense" that there was an individual who was very strong with The Force living on Tatooine, and that should have made him want to go down and check it out.

2) Obi-Wan Kenobi: Even if Vader didn't sense Luke, he should have been close enough to be able to sense Obi-Wan. If Obi-Wan can sense the death of an entire planet from galaxies away, then Vader should be able to sense Obi-Wan, a presence he would be very familiar with, while he's orbiting the planet that Obi-Wan is on.

3) Those ARE the Droids We're Looking For! The droids with the plans for the Death Star were on Tatooine! And, Vader and the other Imperials should have been able to figure that out. And, since Vader was in charge of getting those plans back, he should have gone down the planet and gotten them back, especially when he was familiar with the planet and would have probably known exactly where to look.

Well, in any case, Darth Vader didn't go down to Tatooine, and, I think the reasons I listed cover most of the possibilities for why that might have been. And, I defer back to the question StarWarsIsUs asked earlier about using the Death Star to destroy Tatooine: Vader wouldn't have cared either way. If he didn't care about the existence of the planet, then, he wouldn't have cared about going down for anything either.

johnnycancer

This post has been edited by johnnycancer: 20 August 2006 - 08:34 PM

[Storm]

4) Imperial Protocol: Someone else suggested this, but, I think it makes the most sense of all possible explanations. Imperial protocol probably prohibited its high ranking officers from going down onto a planet's surface. Most likely, this was a new regulation that had been implemented as Rebel attacks on the Empire intensified. The Empire probably didn't want to find its officers being held hostage while Rebels made demands for their release.

Well this cannot be true, seeing as how Vader is present on Hoth....

[miladyblue]

Vader's presence on Hoth might suggest a change in policy, Storm.

Firstly, this means that Vader's rank has advanced to the point where he has discretion as to whether or not he made planetfall.

Second, in the opening scrawl of ESB, it states that Vader is obsessed with finding Luke - Whether it was because he KNEW Luke was his son, or was checking out the coincidence of someone with the similar surname who was ALSO strong with the Force seems to be the driving factor here. IF this "Skywalker" person was either an offspring or blood relative, perhaps Vader felt it imperative to be present personally to question this guy, or contain him, since Vader knew HE was the strongest with the Force, and any attempt at evasion on the part of this "Skywalker" could be countered.

Again, the PT kind of screws with us on this point. We had no indication in the OT that Vader was born and raised on Tatooine, and I never gave it much thought.

This post has been edited by miladyblue: 21 August 2006 - 12:20 AM

[Casual Fan]

While there are reasons for Vader not to go to Tatooine, even given the prequels, the question really should never have arisen. And if the question had to arise, then Lucas should have provided some sort of explanation -after all he didn't he reedit the OT movies to make them fit better with the prequels.

This just reinforces my conviction that if the prequels had been done properly, Anakin Skywalker could NOT have been from Tatooine. Yes, I know that Obi Wan said the Owen didn't want Luke's father to leave here, but that line is much easier to explain than either "hiding" Vader's son on Vader's home planet, or Vader not following the droids when they escape to a planet he knows better than anyone else in the imperial service.