[Jordan]

It is in fact possible to criticise a religion without making blanket assumptions about a race, and Jordan was careful there.

I've even clarified in a different post/topic that Iranians and Arabs, who live in Canada that are not muslim, are friendly and open. JM thinks every one is a racist. I'm not sure where he lives, but since you live in Vancouver you know how diverse it is, being a racist and living where we live is not possible. You'd be hard pressed to NOT have at least one east indian, one chinese, and one arab friend. Unless you're from Golden or Hope.

Toppling a government would hurt the terror organisations it supported, but would not destroy them. It would also likely create more terror organisations. Wholesale slaughter or conquest are really the only ways to end wars of aggression; this idea that you can conquer a people and then rescind power is a goofy illusion. The moment the aggressor backs off, the allegedly conquered people are free to reclaim their land. If the problem is that religion has taught people to hate the US, then it would be in the US's best interest to convince the people otherwise. Dropping bombs on them 24/7 will only confirm their suspicions. Doing business and interacting with the people there would be more productive in terms of a peace effort than the nonsense that's going on now. To return to the analogy I brought up earlier, all Britain had to do was to change a few racist laws and they could have kept the whole of Ireland, without any civil war or terrorism. It was the way the people were treated that activated all the terrorist nutbags. I suggest the same is true in the Middle East. If we treated those people better, they wouldn't be so desperate as to blow themselves up to hurt us. We could just go back to buying and selling things, and allying with them in our efforts to prevent the manufacture or discovery of any alternate fuel supplies.

This sounds like decent advice and it worked with Japan after the war. However, I feel the problem we're dealing with now runs a lot deeper. The terrorist organizations are almost entirely spawned due to the creation of Israel. I've been doing some research and most of these terror orgs are actually minority governments (recognized as such) and do have a charter that stipulates the destruction of the jewish entity. I have a strong feeling that anything less than cutting off support to Israel and stop recognizing it as a sovereign nation will amount to nothing.

It irratates me when I think about it because these terror groups always gain what they want. They don't have to be successful with their attacks. Foiled attempts at bombing structures and planes still make the paper and still affect our nation. We go to war with them but this too is hopeless because we are just creating more of a problem by solidifying their hatered for us?

I'm not entirely sure that friendly relations through business is going to work either. It seems to me that any profit they'd gain from doing business with us would only be used to blow up Israel. Bush has it wrong, North American is not under attack because they hate our freedom and gay pride parades. They hate us because we support Israel. We're heathens man. It's not a compassionate religion when viewed in that light. We support their enemy so we are no better.

Unless their is a giagantic shift in in the peoples morals within those countries, I don't see any change happening. I've yet to see a 60's peace movement or hear about some event where Islamic peoples are calling for a change in government and their diplomacy with others.

Islamic violence and corruption is seen every where, JM. You don't need to be an Arab either, look at north africa. The religion is so behind on times that it's almost embarrising. You have a few progressive groups here in the west. I remember shortly after 9/11, Muslim groups started coming to my school and held confrences on how Islam is a peaceful religion and how jihad is really at war with satan and not non-muslims. But a piece of me always felt that they did held those events for survival reasons, not because the religion is misunderstood.

[Jordan]

Some times I will actually use the term 'arab' instead of muslim. Which is probably not a good thing on my behalf but as it stands I think most arabs are muslims so it's not a far stretch.

The few arabs I know personally are not muslim. But even then, when ever we talk about middle eastern conflicts, they automatically associate muslims to arabs as well. So if you say muslims are fuckers, they'll call you a racist. So what JM is doing is pretty standard.

I often interchange the two since they are pretty much one and the same, but I shouldn't since I do know a two people who are Arab but not muslim.

[Cobnat]

The few arabs I know personally are not muslim. But even then, when ever we talk about middle eastern conflicts, they automatically associate muslims to arabs as well. So if you say muslims are fuckers, they'll call you a racist. So what JM is doing is pretty standard.

http://en.wikipedia...._by_nationality

But Muslim is a nationality. They have been using it in the Balkans for 500 years.

[Jordan]

I never knew that. I think it's stupid and will only confuse people. SO can their be an athiest muslim?

Or is nationality and religion one and the same over there? Well, I guess it kind of is to a certain degree.
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Upon doing a re-read, that is just an article that explains how the term is used loosely in one part of the world. It's not actaully a geographical or racial identity.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 14 August 2006 - 08:37 PM

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

Some times I will actually use the term 'arab' instead of muslim. Which is probably not a good thing on my behalf but as it stands I think most arabs are muslims so it's not a far stretch.

The few arabs I know personally are not muslim. But even then, when ever we talk about middle eastern conflicts, they automatically associate muslims to arabs as well. So if you say muslims are fuckers, they'll call you a racist. So what JM is doing is pretty standard.

I often interchange the two since they are pretty much one and the same, but I shouldn't since I do know a two people who are Arab but not muslim.

I'm fine with Arabs and Muslims.

I just have a problem with the terrorists.

Wow, crazy how I don't have to explain away what I call the people I don't like.

[Cobnat]

Or is nationality and religion one and the same over there? Well, I guess it kind of is to a certain degree.

Muslims is to Arabs as Slavs is to Russians. It makes people feel that they can call other people 'brothers' that arent thier nationality.

[Slade]

JM: While I've known Jordan to come off as quite bigoted in the past, in this context, he's saying that theocratic governments are bad, and those governments are Islamic in the Middle East.

Jordan: It isn't fair to lump Muslims and Arabs together, as they represent different groups of people. Muslims practice some form of the Islamic faith, Arabs are Arabic people. I wouldn't assume that you lump Caucasian and Christian together, though to be fair there are larger groups of white non-Christians here in the west to make a presence, but even if their wern't, it would still be silly. I'm sure that in the visits by Islamic people in the wake of the 9/11 attacks contained a bit of both defense and reminders that Islam doesn't preach terrorism. There were many rednecks around this country who couldn't wait to kill every single towelhead they came in contact with after it happened. I think it's shameful that these people saw and felt the need to have to come out and defend themselves like that, depsite not being related to what happened except by supposed faith.

Edit: Not to anyone in particular: The problem with this entire thing is that administrations seem to think that war solves all problems. They say that the root problem is terrorism and attempt to attack that, when they're treating the symptoms of something much deeper. Kudos to you, Jordan, for seeing past Bush's silly "They hate freedom!" rhetoric.

And most of this stuff belongs in the other thread, methinks. This one is supposed to be about Joseph Lieberman. Why does he continue to run and not just accept defeat? The people have spoken that they don't really want him in office anymore, and kissing their arses isn't going to help much.

This post has been edited by Slade: 15 August 2006 - 09:21 AM

[Cobnat]

The problem with this entire thing is that administrations seem to think that war solves all problems.

But war does solve all problems... the problem is that is also creates new ones.

[Dr Lecter]

Infact this post is too sweet for the forums- it shall be on my website soon!

[Cobnat]

Whats that ment to mean?

[Gobbler]

I guess you just saved him the trouble of putting this aporia into words.

[Cobnat]

Whats that ment to mean?

[J m HofMarN]

First of all regarding why I called Jordan racist:

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Who nowadays is anti-semetic besidies say Muslims and Neo-Nazis?

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Israel is attacking their enemies. This includes any muslim in the world pretty much.

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The US is not responsible for violence. These people are violent

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What is the muslim brotherhood? Muslim anything is generally not good.

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Middle eastern countires are bizzare, even the ones with elections still vote in religious leaders. I think egypt is one. I think they enjoy being supressed.

Muslims are weird people. They are not even kind of related to the west in culture. I don't think i've ever talked to a non-religious arab. It blows my mind that they actually come here and try make a go of it. I get the feeling they hate every one. They are very secluded and rarely talk. I know, I work at a video store.

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I say carpet bomb them before they attack.

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Oh man JM, whose side are you on? Stick up for you own kind for once and stop playing the bleeding heart with post-slave, post-impeialism disease.

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Most of the murdering by guns in the states is done by homeys from shit hole ghettos. Compton, Cabrini Greens etc...

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Let history and the current speak for itself. Europe, Canada, USA, Japan, Australia = Only places worth living in.

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The above link is how Palestinians get their voice across. By shooting guns, burning cars, and mobing together like uncivilized retards.

Let's put it this way, if you fall in love with a girl from a muslim family, don't meet the parents. They will probably kill you and your girlfriend. That or ship her away to muslim land where she can't think for herself.
They don't have too, Jews in Israel are very civilized

I suppose I can't argue. I give up and concede that Jordan is not racist. I do however have to point out just how civilized the Israeli government is:

Mordechai Vanunu, a technician at Dimona, Israel's nuclear installation, from 1976 to 1985, discovered that the plant was secretly producing nuclear weapons, despite Defence Minister Shimon Peres’ pledge in 1963 that Israel would “not be the first to introduce atomic weapons into the Middle East.”

Vanunu’s decided to speak out and in 1986 he provided the Sunday Times with photographs and information about Dimona. The published story "Revealed: The Secrets of Israel's Nuclear Arsenal" has been described by Andrew Neil, the editor at the time, as was the most important scoop that the paper ever carried while he was editor. Vanunu’s evidence showed that Israel had stockpiled up to 200 nuclear warheads, and apparently had a number of thermonuclear bombs ready for use.

On 30th September 1986, Mordechai Vanunu was lured from London to Rome by a female Mossad agent he’d met in London’s West End. He was drugged and transported back to Israel where, in a secret trial, was sentenced to eighteen years for treason and espionage, twelve of those years spent in complete isolation

And that's just how they treat THEIR OWN people who oppose them.

Now as for your argument, blaming Islam for the way the Egyptians and Saudis torture people is nonsense. The regimes there treat people like shit because they're evil at heart and because the US literally pays them to. Hizballah is a very religious movement, but under Sheik Nasrallah's leadership they've actually liberalized a lot: working with Christians to form a coalition government, allowing women more freedoms, etc etc. I don't like the idea of religious government, but religion does have a place. Religion is something that oppressed peoples can rally to and gain strength from just as the American slaves did, likening their own travails to those of Moses.

I'm not at all bigotted against religious people. I just have a problem with Christian fundamentalists who are constantly trying to drag Western society back into the fifteenth century for no reason. Islamic fundamentalists are different because they see the idea of liberalizing, of adopting more Western ideas of tolerance, of adopting, as the FBI has actually put it in memorandi from COINTELPRO "A white liberal doctrine of non-violence"

In no way do I support that. I want Muslim society to become secular, tolerant and liberal, but first and foremost they should be free. If the Muslim society became like modern Western society the US, as is their goal, would be able to largely do whatever they liked with no repercussions except peaceful protest. Fuck that. Radicals in the US need to develop some of the drive of Muslim fundamentalists, not the other way around. Why havn't any of the politicians who authorized torture, why havn't any of the people who lied to get us into the war, why havn't senators who voted to take away our rights, why havn't any of these people been made to know fear from the people they harm and endanger most: their own countrymen.

[J m HofMarN]

I have a strong feeling that anything less than cutting off support to Israel and stop recognizing it as a sovereign nation will amount to nothing.

Why would cutting off suport to Israel be bad? It would save us 4 billion a year and if we'd stopped supporting the bastards

1: 1000 Lebanese would still be alive
2: Gaza would still have running water
3: The WTC never would have been taken down

We support their enemy so we are no better.

You're starting to get it now. We support their enemIES. Plural. Saudi Arabia and Egypt get almost as much as Israel. The fact that we routinely torture and execute and kidnap Muslims don't help either. And when you say "support" I say "Each fucking bullet in the body of a civilian in Gaza, West Bank or Lebanon was bought by the US." If we're buying Israel tools to wage terrorism, we are guilty as well.

I've yet to see a 60's peace movement or hear about some event where Islamic peoples are calling for a change in government and their diplomacy with others.

There hasnt been a sixties peace movement because Muslims aren't fighting a genocidal war half a world away against an enemy who never harmed them. They're fighting a defensive war against an invading force obsessed with making them submit to the will of an evil mad man from Texas. Protest abound in the US during Vietnam because it was an unjust war. Even now during the Iraq war there are huge protests in the US against it. But did any of those protests materialize during World War 2? No, and for good reason. That's why no Muslims are pushing for peace. They're not fighting Vietnam, they're fighting WW2 and playing the part of the Allies.

As for changing their government, the Muslims elected a fairly secular prime minister, Mossadegh I believe, in Iran. The US and Britain overthrew him in Operation Ajax and strengthened the pro-western rule of the Shah. Muslims elected Yassir Arafat in Palestine and the US had their puppet scum Israel literally lock him inside his house and terrorize him even though he offered to negotiate with them. Muslims elected the government of the Lebanese prime minister, a moderate, and then Israel went in and blew up the country. Every time a society in the middle east has had a chance to break free of its shackles and really progress beyond either Western dictatorship or anti-Western dictatorship the US and Israel have fucked it over.

As for the Lieberman question it really irks me that this guy is considered a democrat at all. Supporting war, fear mongering and even literally kissing up to imperialists is for republicans. I'm glad the democrats are moving to clean up their party and streamline their message, though I STILL have no idea what that message is.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 21 August 2006 - 03:05 AM

[Jordan]

It doesn't matter who wins the election, the US military is not leaving Iraq or Afganistan. What's done is done.

Any president who tries to down size the forces OR end it all togther will have created another NAM scenario.

Gays and abortion aside, the biggest event is how we will deal with the war. Don't expect much change from your dems on the war issue.

Why would cutting off suport to Israel be bad? It would save us 4 billion a year and if we'd stopped supporting the bastards

1: 1000 Lebanese would still be alive
2: Gaza would still have running water
3: The WTC never would have been taken down

So giving into the enemy is the right solution. We should let the Jews get wholesale slaugtered by the Muslim militants and call it a day?

Again, Israel is responding to an attack. Your super hero freedom fighters instigate every battle, then run back to their civllian home bases, and it's some how Israels fault?

You don't understand, Muslim militants ARE the bloody thristy ones, not the Jewish Military. They want to wipe out Israel, Israel wants to live in peace and be left alone.

THey struck first. The majority of the Palestinian exodus left before the six day war, on their own. They were hoping to come back after a victorious battle, they didn't win however. THe nations that attacked Israel then turned their backs on the exodus, now we are where we are.

The palesintians can't go back now, it's like mixing water and oil. They fucked up JM. They should have never started the war, never left, and never allowed terror groups to become recongized parties.

If you're for the Islamic militants then you're also for wiping out Israel. THat doesn't mean handing over power to some random palestinian and changing the name of the country to Palestine. What it means is to drive the Jews out and persecuting the remains.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 21 August 2006 - 04:23 AM