[barend]

Okay, I stuck in my ROTJ DVD and paused on the part where Ackbar says "It's a trap!", the fleet, turns around, and you see all the Star Destroyers. I clearly counted 18 Star Destroyers, and there were about another 18 where I couldn't tell if they were Star Destroyers or just stars (I'll assume they are stars). All we see is one Star Destroyer blow up and the Super Star Destroyer, as where two of the Rebels biggest ships are destroyed. 17 Star Destroyers fighting the remainder of the Rebel fleet is a HUGE advantage.


I understand their primary mission was to protect the Death Star, but you have to assume that the Empire had some kind of back up plan in the event he gets killed. I agree, all it would take is the captain of Star Destroyer #12 to step up and say "hey, dipshits...we still outnumber them by an assload of ships. Turn around." The Star Destroyers could make quick work of the Rebel's bigger ships.

i put this down to the lack of motivational posters on the hanger bay walls

Just another thought....

After the shield generator is destroyed on Endor, why doesn't the Death Star destroy Endor? Having the shield generator destroyed would be a clear indication that the troops on the surface failed, thus there is no practical use in keeping the planet around.

more to the point, the loss of the generator guarentees rebel presence on the planet surface and therefore counts as a tactical victory if the planet is popped.

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

I have 2 assumptions about a couple of DS issues...mind you, these are only guesses on my part and really, they would have been easily explained with a few lines of tossed in dialogue that would have taken the same 2 seconds it took me to think them up...

In regards to the DS blowing up Endor, I would guess that they were simply too close to such a large planet/moon to frag the thing. I think it would a safe bet that the mysterious "Lucas-ring" of explosive force alone would take out the DS and all the Imperial ships, and they don't seem the suicide bomber type.

Speaking of which, wouldn't all the wreckage from the 2nd DS rain down onto Endor?

And when it comes to Yavin, my guess is that it takes a decent amount of power to fire the planet-killing dealie on the DS. If they opted to blow up the biggger plent, I'd assume then they'd have to wait a while to "recharge" and the Rebels would have more time to escape.

Again, like I said, these are guesses on my part and just what I had always assumed, and they in no way explain away these issues.

[Casual Fan]

One thing about TPM, the opening scenes are not bad. Two jedi arriving to negotiate, then being attacked by the aliens they are supposed to negotiate with, on the orders of some mysterious guy in a hologram, is a good opening. You start to believe that you are watching a Star Wars movie.

The Jar Jar Binks shows up. For me, that first scene with Jar Jar Binks is the worst in the movie. And the scene where Jar Jar Binks proposes the prequel version of the Enabling Act is a close second.

On what happened to the Empire after the Emperor's death, we never were given a good account of the ideology of the Empire in the OT. We may have got a glimpse of what movitivated the Emperor and Vader, but we have no idea why the officers in the imperial fleet were loyal to the Empire. This, of course, was something the prequels were supposed to do.

But there are actual historical examples of regimes crumbling very quickly after the local dictator was killed or captured. Given these examples, the end of ROTJ isn't that far fetched, especially since its not stated anywhere that the Empire is over.

[johnnycancer]

Obi-Wan and the end of the Empire

Hmmm...this is a tough one. I guess, having read the posts in this thread, I'd have to agree with a lot of people and go with the scene in Return of the Jedi where Obi-Wan explains to Luke that, while Darth Vader didn't really betray and murder Luke's father, "what I have told you was true...from a certain point of view."

There's a couple of reasons why I'd name this as the worst scene ever. First of all, as people have already stated, it's just plain embarassing; it's a cop-out answer; and it's embarassing for Alec Guiness to have to actually deliver a line like that, especially considering how respected the character of Obi-Wan is supposed to be in the Original Trilogy.

More importantly, I'd have to name it as the worst scene ever because that scene created a whole school of thought among Star Wars fans that holds that, "Obi-Wan is a liar." I don't really wish to debate this at length, because, it is true that Obi-Wan lies when he first tells Luke about his father. But, I think a lot of people have unfairly ignored the reasons behind why he might have originally told Luke that Darth Vader killed his father.

If we're going off of what can be inferred from the Original Trilogy and what we find out in Revenge of the Sith, then, we know that Obi-Wan is on Tatooine in order to keep an eye on Luke - and presumably, that would entail protecting Luke from the influences of the Dark Side, including Luke's father, Darth Vader, and the Emperor. Now, knowing that, what would have happened if Obi-Wan had told Luke the truth? If Luke knew that his father was alive, then, he would probably want to meet him. And, if he knew that his father was Darth Vader, then, this presents some problems for Obi-Wan - because it almost inevitably leads to Luke meeting Darth Vader (and the Emperor at some point) and being tempted to join the Dark Side. And, once Darth Vader knew that Luke was his son, then, it would probably only be a matter of time before he found out that Leia was his daughter. So, worst case scenario, either both of the Skywalker twins end up turning to the Dark Side, or, they end up dead - which in either case would pretty much mean abject failure for Obi-Wan and Yoda.

So, giving Obi-Wan the benefit of the doubt - that he's not just a lying and manipulative old man - obviously, he knew that sooner or later Luke would discover who his father was. Obi-Wan's objective in lying to him was most likely to buy some time to teach Luke the ways of The Force, seek training from Yoda on Dagobah, and, at least have a fighting chance at resisting the temptation to join the Dark Side when he finally does confront his father.

So, is Obi-Wan a liar? Yeah. But, what else could have he done that wouldn't jeopardize the future of the Jedi?

But, back to the subject at hand, the scene sukcs; it's not handled very well; and Obi-Wan's character comes off as, well, a liar.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, to address some other issues, because I don't feel that my post is long enough as it is, let's talk about plans of succession in the Empire and the apparently non-sensical celebration at the end of Return of the Jedi.

Lines of succession in the Empire could kind of go either way. While there's a lot of evidence that the Empire is basically a well run, well organized meritocracy, it's also a dictatorial regime. And, generally speaking, dictators don't like to plan for what happens should they suddenly become "indisposed."

I would guess, to draw some parallels between other regimes, that Palpatine's empire was structured similarly to Saddam's Iraq. Basically, you've got the dictator as the head of government, flanked by a few close advisors, who probably double as the heads of essential government institutions like a secret police force, and a few highly skilled, highly loyal military leaders. In Saddam's case, there was Saddam, his sons, and a few generals that formed his inner circle. In the case of The Empire, basically, you had Palpatine, Grand Moff Tarkin, and Darth Vader. And that's basically it.

The clearest outline for any plan of succession we really get comes in Episodes IV and V. Palpatine ruled the empire; Grand Moff Tarkin was his second in command and commander of the armed forces (basically); and Darth Vader was essentially Palpatine's body guard/secret police. Vader is sent to the Death Star in Episode IV to assist Grand Moff Tarkin and to track down key figures of the rebel insurgency. Once Tarkin died, Vader assumed military authority. And, had Palpatine died, then Vader would have assumed control of the Empire as well. But that was about as far as the plan of succession seems to go.

Following in this same line of reasoning, the reason why the destruction of the Death Star in Return of the Jedi is the end of the Empire is because it kills the only two people who had the authority, power, and resources to hold the Empire together: Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader. To cite Iraq once again (and I have no political agenda in doing so, just to avoid any confusion on that point) once Saddam was deposed, the state of Iraq disintegrated into several pre-existing factions (basically Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds) and, the resulting situation was that various warlords - like Muqtada al-Sadr - were left vying for power. And, given the size of the Empire and the breadth of its military bureaucracy, there most certainly would have been pre-existing factions, and surely warlords (high ranking military officers) would have emerged to compete for power, resources, and jurisdictions. Nobody with the stature of Palpatine or Darth Vader would have existed to have a legitimate claim to authority over the entire Empire, so, the result would have been the collapse of the Empire.

~~~~~~~~

And finally, the celebration at the end of Return of the Jedi. I can understand why people are a bit confused by this; especially with the Special Edition footage of celebrations on Coruscant, it seems as if everyone in the Empire is misinterpreting the significance of what just happened. If you disregard the added scenes, then, the celebration on Endor is nothing more than a reasonable response to a single, very significant victory. Add Coruscant into the equation and it gets a little tricky. But, I tend to assume that mass communications and some type of news media exists in the Star Wars universe - at least people have some way of keeping up with current events. And, the destruction of the second Death Star is basically the climax of a "shock and awe" campaign being carried out by the Rebels. And, as rebel supporters are likely to be monitoring this series of events, the destruction of the Death Star becomes a sort of symbolic, "mission accomplished" signifying the end of major operations.

But, I do think this raises another, more important question: how many citizens of the Empire are actually Rebel sympathizers? Oddly enough, I don't think we're presented with a lot of evidence in the 6 films to conclude that the majority of people are dissatisfied with the Empire.

Think about it. In Revenge of the Sith, when Palpatine proclaims the beginning of the Empire, all of the political elites of the Republic seemed thrilled to death about it; the announcement is greeted with thunderous applause. Padme says that it's the death of Democracy, but, she never explains why - as far as I remember, Palpatine was basically assuming emergency powers through legitimate, democratic means - we're simply told the the Empire is bad just because it is. But, if we're following what happened in the movie, it seems as if the Empire came into existence through pretty legimiate means.

Similarly, when do we ever hear an average citizen say anything bad about the Empire? We hear Luke's aunt and uncle say the equivalent of "we don't agree with all of their policies," but, Owen is still very opposed to any typed of armed insurgency against the Empire. Lando Calrissian doesn't seem to like the Empire very much, but then again, Lando is actively breaking their laws, so he shouldn't have any expectation of protection under the Empire.

As far as what the Empire actually does, well, what does it do? We do seem the Empire commit acts of genocide and utter brutality, but then, many of the actions of the Rebels are not much better. The Empire does destroy Alderaan, killing billions of innocent people. But, from the Empire's point of view, that military action was taken in response to Alderaan's cooperation with a terrorist organization. And when the Rebels blow up the Death Star, is that any better? I'm not sure what the maximum occupancy of the Death Star is, but, it's planet sized, so, let's say a couple million. And who are the majority of people killed on the Death Star? Stormtroopers. They're not war criminals; they're not soul-less killing machines; they're just soldiers trying to make a living. Basically, they were stationed overseas, waiting for deployment, and then they got blown up. What makes their lives worth any less than the lives of the people on Alderaan?

So, the question at the end of Return of the Jedi really should be: are the Rebels heroes or terrorists? What evidence do we have to assume that ANY celebrations would be taking place outside of Endor? From what it looks like, the Emperor was the head of a legitimate government and the Rebels never really make a good case for why the Empire needs to be overthrown. So, given that background, why would anybody be celebrating on Coruscant?

Well, this last bit is more speculative than anything else. Sorry for making this such a really long post.

johnnycancer

This post has been edited by johnnycancer: 20 August 2006 - 02:29 AM

[Prequel dialogue coach]

"Why did he (lucas) listen to his daughter in Christiansen's casting?"

is this true?

[barend]

A. The time between the Falcon flying past the bridge window until the time when Needa orders "Track them! They may come around for another pass!" is at most 4 seconds. This means that in a matter of 4 seconds, the Falcon was able to fly past the bridge window and attach to the back of the Star Destroyer. There is NO WAY this could have been accomplished in such a short time span. I predict the time required for the Falcon to change direction, and reduce it's speed to zero so it could gently land on the back of the Star Destroyer would be at least 30 seconds. If it did occur in 4 seconds, we should have at least heard a loud thud.

B. There is just no way that any of the other Star Destroyers in the fleet, or the TIE fighters flying around could fail to notice the Falcon. Even if all the technology failed, a simple glance out of a window would have detected them. There is no defense to this issue. It's a major flaw in the movie.

to allow for time dialation, growing up I was always able to let 'A' go. but Point 'B' always bothered me. wasn't anyone maintaining visual contact?

[Toru-chan]

I'll do a serious post for a change: *Loving your Empire, and keeping Fiction together*.

You raise some interesting points, Johnny. I'd stay away from the Iraq/Terrorism/With-us-or-against-us thing. You can see a this leak in Lucas' writing in the prequels, but not the original movies. It's a 2001+ invention which you really have to strain to map back onto the original 1970/1980s movies

We are never given any good reason why the Empire is so bad. Yes, they do do bad stuff, like zapping Alderaan and over-enthusiastic policing when after the droids, but this seems weirdly out of context consider everything else they did. If they were masacring and enslaving their way around the galaxy, or even taxing too high. But as you say, the citizens of the galaxy don't seem to be doing too badly. They seem affluent, well-fed, lots of entertainment, cancer sticks and retro diners. Not much to bitch about really.

The old 'Democratic' (um like the democratically-elected 16 year old Queen of Naboo) didn't seem too smart or clever at running things. When Naboo was invaded they formed a committee. The Empire on the other hand gets stuff done, and so long as you're not trying to overthrow them, leave you alone. If it was ever put to the ballot, Rebels vs Empire, I reckon most citizens would vote for the Empire.

I think when we as kiddies saw SW4, we assumed the empire were bad asses and had a long string of badassery to their name. But when Lucas did the Prequels, the Empire was pretty tame. They killed the bad guys who were bad. Nice duality, but maybe too much? Emperor was a power-hungry evil guy, but his only objective was getting power. He didn't want to make the galaxy miserable for evil sake. He just wanted power. No different from any other politician who'll do "whatever it takes".

What's it all mean? Well, ever lied about something? It's hard to be consistent, and you end up tripping yourself up. Lucas did hours of fiction, which is a long, long lie, and if you peer closely it all comes apart. ("Heroes on both sides", anyone?) If you make your fiction real-worldly, it's easier to keep it consistent. But if you go into fantasy where everything is made up, it all comes back. Some credit the success of LOTR with the fact JRR spent years inventing his little fantasy world before he wrote about it. Food for thought there, my friends!

Oblig. joke: I still want to see someone redo SW with George W. as the Emperor, Darth Cheney :-)

This post has been edited by Toru-chan: 13 April 2007 - 11:48 PM

[Despondent]

Cheney prefers a gun; Solo or Chewie. I would like to see Emp. Dub, force-lightning the cigar out of Clinton's damp hand.

[barend]

We are never given any good reason why the Empire is so bad. Yes, they do do bad stuff, like zapping Alderaan and over-enthusiastic policing when after the droids, but this seems weirdly out of context consider everything else they did. If they were masacring and enslaving their way around the galaxy, or even taxing too high. But as you say, the citizens of the galaxy don't seem to be doing too badly. They seem affluent, well-fed, lots of entertainment, cancer sticks and retro diners. Not much to bitch about really.

interesting.

the only planets we see or hear of during the imperial reign are;

Tatooine
a back water destert world inhabbited by farmers and their punk kids, gansters, nomadic hillbilles, and midgets who comb the wastlands for scrao and droid.

Alderan
a peacful planet with no weapons of any kind but members of the royal family openly conspire against the ruling faction. probably contains a rebel base.

Dantooine
small and remote with a rebel base.

Yavin
forest planet with rebel base.

Hoth
hostile snow planet. not as fun as it sounds. just like tatooine but opposite conditions and zero population, aside from sasquashes. 1x rebel base

Bespin
uninhabbited planet aside from high-alltitude gas-mining colony.

Dagobah
swamp.

endor
forest moon, inhabitted by hairy munchkins.

well... Alderan is the only planet that seems inhabbited to any amount worth considering and the empire blows it up.

[optimus_prime]

Any scene with Jar Jar. My loathing of that character is complete.

1. Padme falling out of the troop transport - who in their right mind is going to just be "holding on" while in a high speed flying transport in a combat situation? No safety straps or seatbelts? Don't let the Washington State Highway Patrol catch up with you, it's a $101 fine.

Ok...For starters, I think the Washington State Highway Patrol would be well out of damn jurisdiction to try to issue a moving violation on a distant planet. '

But even if they could, Im wagering that the fine would be much more than $101.00,assuming Jedis carrying around American currency all the time. Nope, the WSHP would need to issue a fine exceeding into the high thousands, if not millions, to just to pay for their return trip back to Earth.

This post has been edited by optimus_prime: 15 April 2007 - 07:03 PM

[Infernus]

The single cringe-worthy scene from all six films, for me, is the scene where Anakin comes on to Padme durting their Naboo exile. (Ep. II Attack of the Clones)

[TruJade]

I thought that was sweet
up until he began telling her how
he could breathe or function without

her presence. The whole thing was like Stalker 101.
Even worse is Anakin continues the abuse

and Padme accepts it cuz she supposably 'loves' him too
If you ask me she just gave in eventually because

there were no other stalkers that
(well that didn't want her dead)
showed the same devotion

[parcelbombsmurf]

I thought that was sweet
up until he began telling her how
he could breathe or function without

her presence. The whole thing was like Stalker 101.
Even worse is Anakin continues the abuse

and Padme accepts it cuz she supposably 'loves' him too
If you ask me she just gave in eventually because

there were no other stalkers that
(well that didn't want her dead)
showed the same devotion

the whole romance was false.

but even false romance, like those of pretty much every single romantic comedy ever written, can be done with some style.

[Infernus]

TruJade:

That is precisely what I was talking about. I honestly do not see how you can think it was 'sweet up to a point' as if you disagree with me, and then post the same criticisms as I do, only with more detail.
Also Padme was not entirely blameless either. She did wear that outfit and sit next to Anakin with a fireplace going. What did she think was going to happen? She knew by this point that Anakin was attracted to her.

Strange way to spurn a guy's advances....

This post has been edited by Infernus: 25 May 2007 - 02:02 PM

[Mad Rabbit]

One scene that always bugged the living hell out of me is an added scene in SE version of ANH. Right before Luke and company are about to go on their big mission to blow up the Death Star, Luke has a converstaion with Biggs wishing each other luck. Granted it's a small scene but the reason it bugs me is that it SHOULD HAVE STAYED ON THE CUTTING ROOM FLOOR!

Man I hate that scene! I know that Biggs is a friend of Luke's from his ass backward planet of Tantooine but what purpose did this scene really serve? Did it change the plot? Did it progress the story at all? Was it supposed to register more of an emotonal impact? It did none of those things! I know they mention Biggs earlier in the film but to not show Biggs having any kind of relationship with Luke prior to his adventures with Obi-Wan and company really makes this scene irrelevant.

Did Luke look up to Biggs as a big brother, were they good friends? Did Luke have a little bit of hero worship for Biggs? The scene didn't convey anything to me at all. Was I supposed to shed a tear when a tie fighter cashed in Biggs check? Hell I had more of an emotional repsonse when Porkins ass was turned into a fireball.

Sorry enough ranting... I hate that scene.