[CowboyCurtis]

1. I don't recall any line in the movie which states a T-16 is like an X-Wing. The only sight of a T-16 is that stupid little model Luke is playing with, and it doesn't look remotely similar to an X-Wing! It's looks more like an earlier design of an Imperial Shuttle.

Star Wars novelisation. If Gushers can pull EU (and it's not EU) stuff out for proof, then so can I. But I don't even need to go that far, because it's said in the additional footage with Biggs that the T-16 is like the X-wing.

2. It's seen in the background? At what point?

What kind of Star Wars fan are you if you haven't noticed the parked Skyhopper in the background?

3/4. Both are pointless statements. If I told you that I am the smartest person in the universe, and one of my friends told you that I am extremely smart, does that instantly imply that I am the most brilliant person alive?

No, no one EVER says he's the "greatest pilot alive"---Obi-Wan says that he's understood that Luke has become "quite a pilot," and Luke says, "I'm not such a bad pilot myself..."


I know Obi-Wan has been turned into a liar in Star Wars now, I suppose Luke is now, too....great.

If Luke had grown up on a planet such as Coruscant, where attending a pilot training school was possible and ships were easily accessible, then maybe I would be able to buy hearing that he was a good pilot from two lines of dialogue. However, he grew up on a planet run by gansters and worked on a farm. How does that setting produce a good pilot? It doesn't.

You don't need to be raised in a place of affluence to become great. This is one of the wonderful messages of Star Wars. Or have you seen it yet? These kind of stories where the 'country bumpkin' outdoes the big hotshots are told all the time, and many times.. they happen in real life, too.

Let's say that somebody grew up in the Northwest Territories in Canada where this person lived in an Igloo and never left the region. For whatever reason, you end up north and meet this person. Their father says "Johnny here is quite a skateboarder" and Johnny claims "I'm not such a bad skateboarder myself". Would you believe this person could skateboard?

Yes, I could, especially if he proves it later, just like Luke does in the DS attack.

Here we go again. Resorting to the PT to make a flaw in a ANH more acceptable.

Here we go again, cutting off the OOT at the knees to bring it down to the level of the PT. Nice.

From your reasoning, I could argue that "Killing a few random people on the street is okay, because it's not as bad as what occured in the Holocaust".

Wow, so you're saying the TPM is an atrocity like the Holocaust? Not even I would go that far.

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 31 July 2006 - 04:33 PM

[civilian_number_two]

Storm: In STAR WARS, Luke has flown before. It's established. He has bullseyed womp rats in his T-16, and Ben commends him for his skills. In STAR WARS, Tatooine is an Imperial planet, not a planet run by thieves. That notion is introduced in TPM, which we're not talking about. Let's face it, STAR WARS and TPM are films made by the same filmmaker, but are not really part of the same storyline. TPM takes some liberties with the fiction originally created, and not all of those liberties mesh with the original ideas.

In STAR WARS, Lucas was playing to a notion well-known and documented, that Americans in WWII did better with their vehicles than their European enemies because in North America there was already a growing car culture, to a greater extent than in Europe. Common folks owned cars, and tinkered with repairs. So if a tank broke down, often the soldiers could fix it without having to wait for an engineer. Luke's T-16 is like the hot rods that teenagers used to cruise the streets of their towns in Lucas's own childhood (documented in AMERICAN GRAFITTI). Han Solo's vehicle is a souped-up version of a commonly available vehicle. I can'tthinkof any modern equivalent to the "souped-up" argo ship. Would you like to question the ability of a simple pilot to enhance an interstellar cargo ship, or can you acknowledge that this is an homage to Lucas's childhood, more than a probable notion?

STAR WARS was an homage to ideas from American films, science fiction, history, and Lucas's own life. It's pastiche, and yes, we're supposed to believe that a farm kid from Iowa can take on the German army, because in American mythology that's exactly what happened. The idea that Luke can fly a fighter just allows the fight to take place in space rather than on a battlefield. If that's the scene that bugs you most about STAR WARS, then I won't bother to remind you about Ben controlling men's mind's, or speaking to Luke from beyond the grave. Because frankly, if I were more worried about realism than about how the scenes served the theme and the overall fiction, then those are the scenes I'd be most worried about.

My comment on Luke's retort is this: one flyer said some jackass thing whose effect was to deflate the morale of his companions. Luke dismissed it, showing he's possibly leader material. By the end of the battle he essentially receives a field commission after his leader has died. Luke's a hero, and that naysayer is not. I don't see that as being the worst scene of the film, or even a bad one.

[Storm]

This argument isn't going anywhere, unless Chef Elf comments that he finds the situation a little unrealistic and people start jumping the bandwagon (Kind of like what happened with my comment about Han evading the Imperial Fleet. Nobody agreed with me until Chef said he had a problem with it too, and then afterwards many people acknowledged it was kind of silly.).

All I am saying is that under the circumstances, Luke didn't really have a place to make a comment like that in the briefing room. Some say it demonstrates his leadership skills, but I would say it undermines the other pilots and shows a lack of respect for them. At the same time, Wedge shouldn't have been such a little baby about the size of the exhaust port.

Overall, I would have liked to have seen things pan out differently. Lucas thought he had one chance with Star Wars, and therefore included things that weren't planned until Return of the Jedi (such as the attack on the Death Star). If Luke had joined the Rebellion in ANH, practiced flying during ESB, and then participated in an attack during ROTJ, I would have found his success more believable. It just seemed really rushed to me.

Also of note, his piloting skills during the battle of Hoth in ESB are nothing special. He seems to have gotten worse since the fight on the first Death Star.

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

This argument isn't going anywhere, unless Chef Elf comments that he finds the situation a little unrealistic and people start jumping the bandwagon (Kind of like what happened with my comment about Han evading the Imperial Fleet. Nobody agreed with me until Chef said he had a problem with it too, and then afterwards many people acknowledged it was kind of silly.).

So when people disagree with you, we're wrong, and when we agree with you, it's just because we're lead around by Chef Elf and told what to say.

Right.

Good call.

Overall, I would have liked to have seen things pan out differently. Lucas thought he had one chance with Star Wars, and therefore included things that weren't planned until Return of the Jedi (such as the attack on the Death Star). If Luke had joined the Rebellion in ANH, practiced flying during ESB, and then participated in an attack during ROTJ, I would have found his success more believable. It just seemed really rushed to me.

OH NOES!!! I AGREE WITH THIS!!! Chef Elf is beaming thought lasers into my brain again!

Seriously, I think that's a good point, and in a perfect world, that would have been best. When ANH was made, however, Lucas no doubt realized that he probably only had one shot at making this "space epic" (for one, nobody had any idea it would succeed and for two, sequels were a rarity back then, and that's being generous) and had to go for broke and have the heroic farm boy rise to to the task or blowing up the bad guys' super space-weapon. Of course, the film ended up being a smash and further films followed, but at the time, he didn't have the luxury of spacing things out.

Of course, this also brings up again really how lame it is that the big twist for the bad guys in ROTJ is that they have another goddamn Death Star...but back on track, Luke is the hero of ANH. What would you have him do to drive that home?

This post has been edited by MyPantsAreOnFire: 31 July 2006 - 05:49 PM

[Helena]

1. From what I understand, the T-16 is incapable of flying in space.

'From what you understand'? Understand from where, exactly? I don't remember any mention of the T-16's capabilities in the film; neither can I find any in the script. Anything mentioned in the EU doesn't count; ANH came before the EU, so it's not fair to blame the film for a problem created by the novels (which weren't even written by Lucas in any case). And even if the T-16 can't fly in space, what's to say Luke hasn't also flown other ships which are capable of space-flight?

2. The reason they probably didn't use the ship at all is because it probably doesn't exist. As I said in a previous thread, I believe Luke was just imagining that he was a great pilot (as indicated by the fact that an 18 year old is playing with a toy).

...what, as opposed to him just wishing he could be flying one at that moment? So now you're claiming that Luke doesn't have any piloting experience whatsoever, even though he shows himself to be an perfectly capable pilot in the final space battle? That would certainly be a major problem with the film... were it not for the fact that, oh yes, IT'S NOT IN THE FILM. The film tells us very plainly - both through dialogue and by actually showing us - that Luke has plenty of previous experience as a pilot; the idea that he's only 'imagining' being a pilot is one that you have entirely made up.

3. If the T-16 does exist and can fly in space, that raises a great question. Why didn't they use it instead of risking their necks to find a pilot in Mos Eisley? The only logical explanation is that they needed to meet Han Solo for the story to go on.

Two possible explanations, both of which I've mentioned before: a) The T-16 in question was one that Luke hired for practice sessions, not one he owned himself. b) Luke (or the Lars family) did own a T-16, but it couldn't fly in space; Luke's space training was done in other ships.

An airbase on Tatooine, a planet which is essentially run by thieves? I don't think so. And even if there was, Owen would never pay for Luke to attend it considering how he was so determined to prevent Luke from becoming like his father.

OK: firstly, where in the film does it say that the planet is 'run by thieves'? The crap about the Hutts being in charge didn't come along until TPM, and even if they were, that wouldn't prevent there being an airbase there. Secondly, if Owen was prepared to let Luke go to the Academy (which he apparently was, once the harvest was done), there's no reason for him to refuse to let him have flying lessons. He was concerned about Luke being similar to Anakin in terms of his 'ideals', not his piloting skills - why the hell should he mind him being a pilot?

From what I understand, the Rebel's plan wasn't to defend Luke and hope he delivers the lucky shot. What kind of squadron would be willing to sacrifice themselves so that the most inexperienced pilot would have a chance at destroying the Death Star?

Their plan was not to 'sacrifice themselves'; it was to try and collectively evade/fight off the Imperial ships so that Luke - or anyone else - could get in a shot at the exhaust port. We actually see several Rebels attempting to do this, but Luke is the only one who succeeds.

At one point during ANH, Luke whines to C-3PO "Now I'll NEVER get out of here", thus implying he has never left the planet and flown in space.

Bullshit. A short flight in space above Mos Eisley is the same as permanently leaving the planet? If I were fed up of living in England and said "I'll never get out of here," would that imply that I'd literally never been out of it in my whole life, or even up in a plane? Of course it fucking well wouldn't.

From your stand point, we could also say we didn't know what Anakin's flying experience was in the TPM. Perhaps when he was six years old he stole one of Watto's ships and saved Alderaan from a devasting attack from the crab people.

Oh, for Christ's sake. So you genuinely think it's equally plausible for a nine-year-old and a twenty-year old to have become a good pilot? This is quite possibly the lamest argument I've ever seen on this site, and I can tell you now that the competition is pretty stiff.

There is nothing implausible about Luke having become a pilot. There are no problems with the way it's portrayed in the film; the only problems are the ones you have invented. You come up with a ridiculous straw-man conceit - that Luke has never flown before, yet instantly turns into a great pilot at the end of the film - and pretend that this is what's shown by the film itself. NO IT'S NOT. If you're not prepared to accept something that's plainly stated in the film, and which we have no reason to disbelieve, that's entirely your problem.

[benny blanco]

THE SECOND DEATH STAR WAS IT FOR ME...

I COULD SEE THE PRE-EMPIRE GOVT STARTING CONSTRUCTION ON THE WEAPONS PLATFORM EVEN BEFORE THE EVENTS AS SEEN IN EP 1 TO 3...

MAYBE IT WAS EVEN OPERATIONAL SAY A FEW YEARS AFTER EP 3...NOT WITH ITS PRIMARY CANNON BUT AS A CARRIER BASE...IT WOULD MOVE TO OTHER SITES TO TAP RESOURCES AND PERSONNEL...

ALSO AS A PROPRANGA TOOL OF PALPATINE AS WELL...

BUT A SECOND DEATH STAR NO WAY....

THE COST OF THE CONSTRUCTION WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO HIGH AND A DRAIN ON EVEN THE EMPIRE...

THE COST OF THE STANDARD FLEET WOULD HAVE BEEN AN OUTLAY FOR THE EMPIRE...AND WHO KNOWS WHAT AGGESSOR SPEICES THEY MIGHT HAVE ENCOUNTERED...FOR EXAMPLE A BORG TYPE SPEICES...


THE SECOND DEATH STAR WAS ANOTHER LAME AZZ GEORGE LUCAS EXCUSS FOR LACK OF GOOD STORY TELLING AND DEVELOPMENT...


EP 6 SHOULD HAVE HAD A WHOLE DIFFERENT SLANT....I SAY INSTEAD OF THE BULL CRAP DEATH STAR 2 AND EWOKES PALPATINE COULD HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO BE LOSING CONTROL AND AS THE BALANCE TIPPED....HE COULD HAVE HAD SAY A SCORCH EARTH POLICY AND WAS PLANNING TO DESTROY COURSICANT HOME WORLD...IT ENDS WHERE IT STARTED...AND THERE THE CIRCLE WOULD HAVE COME FULL....THERE THE ULTIMATE FIGHT WOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE...ALSO ONCE THE PLAN WAS LEARN OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC...ALL SUPPORT OF THE EMPIRE WOULD HAVE ENDED...THIS WOULD HAVE MADE MORE SCENCE IN THE MAKE OVER OF THE PEOPLE ON COURSICANT CELEBRITING THE END OF THE WAR...THEY DIDNT GO BOOM WITH THEIR WORLD, AND WAS THANKFUL TO THE JEDI...


I STOPPED BEING A SW FAN IN 83....I DID SEE EP 1 IN 1999 AND WAS SAD I DID...

NEVER SAW EP 2


AND WATCHED EP 3 ONLY AS A BOOTLEG ON A STREET CONNER...AND ONLY THE PART OF THE OBI-WAN / VADER DUEL...


HAVE NO DESIRE TO EVER SEE IT OR THE OTHERS AGAIN....


SAD REALLY....


OH WELL....

[miladyblue]

Okay, I guess I'll wade into the whole thing with Luke good/bad pilot myself.

1. There was a vehicle in the garage on the Lars homestead, where Luke took the droids for their cleaning and repairs - it looked like a small version of the Shuttle Tydirium. Was it the T-16? No mention is made or needed. It sure looked like the model Luke was "playing" with. Incidentally, haven't you seen pilots using models like that to study a plane or other flying vehicle in flight? Check out Top Gun, [don't start on the politics involved in that one, however] and see experienced fighter pilots using similar models to study combat tactics.

2. It is possible, since Luke had apparently learned to be handy with repairs, that Uncle Owen rented it as I believe Helena suggested, bought it as salvage - my brothers have bought cars from the junkyard that were totalled, and fixed them until they were street legal - and made the necessary repairs from salvaging wrecks that were in worse shape, or possibly even did a "rent to own" deal from one of the local dealers so they could have the thing for flying. Either as a crop duster, or to get places that were too far for the landspeeder to go easily, they had the thing on the farm.

3. Luke's statement to Wedge was "I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home..." The use of the posessive here could either mean that Owen had bought it for Luke outright [unlikely] or he was just saying that to keep from having to go into a long-ass explanation about "I used to bullseye womprats in my uncle's cousin's next door neighbor's grandfather's T-16 that he got in a sweet rent to own deal from some little flying thingie in Mos Espa. Only have about a dozen more payments to make, and that baby's mine, er, I mean my uncle's cousin's next door neighbor's grandfather's T-16, that is!"

4. Check out a little history of early flight in the US, specifically "barnstormers." These were regular folks who managed to buy small planes, and with little real flight training, became experts at maneuvers that frightened pilots with much more formal flight training. I always thought that Luke might not have had much formal training, perhaps basic flight instruction, which would be similar to driver's ed here in the US. That does not prevent someone with a vehicle - flying or ground - from practicing on their own, and through that practice, becoming comparable to a professional pilot or driver.

5. Finally, Storm, if the scene bothers you so much, hit the fast forward button and go past it.

[Lord Aquaman]

I don't think we should be using the Holocaust in a discussion about science fiction movies.

[jariten]

There is nothing implausible about Luke having become a pilot

Quite right. Theres nothing implausible about Luke becoming a pilot. What is implausible is that he could jump in a ship that hes had no training in and destroy the death star where all his other highly trained rebel friends died.

Thats just one part of that end sequence thats stupid beyond compare, but hey Switch Your Brain Off And Enjoy (as I still can and do).

[barend]

edivdence to the contrary and the effort people put into explaining their alternative opinions; seem to be another thing you can switch you brain off to.

[civilian_number_two]

Quite right. Theres nothing implausible about Luke becoming a pilot. What is implausible is that he could jump in a ship that hes had no training in and destroy the death star where all his other highly trained rebel friends died.

Thats just one part of that end sequence thats stupid beyond compare, but hey Switch Your Brain Off And Enjoy (as I still can and do).

Jariten: Luke flew the ship just as well as the other pilots, not particularly better. The fact that he also destroyed the Death Star had nothing to do with him being a better pilot, nor was such a suggestion ever made. Luke in fact switched off his targeting computer, something the other pilots didn't do, and he tapped into a mysterious energy field called "The Force." You see, in the fictional universe of STAR WARS, this "Force" gave Luke an edge over the other pilots. While they relied on a purely technological solution, he went back to the old ways and in doing so destroyed the "technological terror" that the Empire had created. The turning away from mechanism and return to animism and Faith is a large theme is STAR WARS; it builds through the film, and it is played out in that concluding battle. I agree that accepting this nonsense may be similar to you to the idea of "turning off your brain and enjoying," but I don't accept that the major problem with this task (of meeting the film halfway) is that Luke shouldn't be a better pilot than his companions. I suggest that no such argument is made, and that his edge is this mystical energy he's able to access. If that's what you have trouble with, then you have a larger problem with STAR WARS that Storm does.

Storm: I disagreed with you right off the bat. I didn't follow Chef's lead. By the way, I disagreed with Chef that the scene with the Falcon was harder to believe than anything else in this series of fantasy films. So there I REALLY disn't follow his lead. You may not have noticed but I made fun of that criticism by pretending to be a fanboy and to have all sorts of information on the capabilities of Corellian freighters to stop and the times required for those maneuvers. Because frankly that's what I thought of the complaint, that it's wacky fanboy nonsense. Granted, accepting space wizards and laser swords doesn't imply that I should accept everything; I don't accept the majority of TPM and I'm sure I'd reject the other prequels if I'd ever seen them. But honestly, the stopping time of a space freighter when in close proximity to another ship is not something I would even think about. The point of that scene and its followup is to show that Han is clever, and that he can evade your average Imperial officer, but that Boba Fett is more clever, and that shit don't fly with him. Remember that despite Han's nifty maneuver, he is caught anyway. That scene is about the Boba Fett character, and plays into the story of the film. If I were to complain about a scene in that sequence and about how it is silly and unnecessary and unrealistic, I'd be more likely to mention the giant slug.

[Helena]

In addition to that, as I keep pointing out, there is nothing in the film to say that Luke has never trained in an X-wing before. Even if he hasn't, he may well have flown ships that are very similar. I somehow doubt that real-life pilots are unable to fly anything but the exact model of plane they used for training.

As for the Falcon scene, it may well be unrealistic, but I've only seen ESB once and I don't remember it well enough to be able to comment. I'd have thought that if lack of realism is your main problem, the 'giant space slug' scene would be the first to come to mind.

[georgelucas4greedo]

This post went from being funny to being boring.

[diligent_d]

Quotes from newly added scenes:
"You young Skywalker? Have you been checked out on the Incom T-sixty-five?"
"Sir, Luke is the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories."

I guess Biggs is lying too.

[georgelucas4greedo]

Quotes from newly added scenes:
"You young Skywalker? Have you been checked out on the Incom T-sixty-five?"
"Sir, Luke is the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories."

I guess Biggs is lying too.

oh come now, we all know the Special Editions are not cannon!