[MyPantsAreOnFire]

The Falcon part bugged me just because we didn't see how they pulled it off so damn fast...though lalong what Chef said, I think I always ignored it because then you knew the captain is going to get his ass handed to him by Darth. In a weird way, we see him pay for the film's stupidity...

But really, what are the odds they don't have any windows anywhere else except on the bridge?

[StarWarsIsUs]

4. A New Hope: Luke, The Cocky Fighter with No Experience
Of all the poor scenes in A New Hope (and there were tons of them), the one where the Rebels are being briefed annoys me the most. Here you have most of the Rebellion's most trained fighter pilots who have been flying X-Wings and fighting in space battles for years. Then you have Luke who has never flown an X-Wing or in space at all, claiming that destroying the Death Star is as simple as shooting womp rats back on a desert planet. There's no way he could be that arrogant. It's like you going to a shooting range and then claiming that fighting in World War II would have been the easiest task in human history.

That's too much of an over-statement, when you compared it to the shooting range thing. Luke was just naturally good at flying and manuevering any type of mechanical device. And he didn't come out and say that destroying the Death Star was going to be easy. He just said the final shot itself wouldn't be too difficult to aim and fire at. (the hole that leads to the main reactor.) Luke was well-aware how hard it was going to be to get through all the TIE fighters.

[Storm]

I don't buy any of that crap that "Luke was already a good pilot". Just to list some issues with this.

1. It's ridiculous to assume that the Lars would own that T-16. They wouldn't need a ship like that to farm their moisture. Also, given how much Owen seems irritated by being placed with the burden of raising Luke, there is no way in hell he would ever buy a T-16 so Luke could develop piloting skills.

2. Their farm is a joke. If you look at the buildings they own in the film, there is nowhere they could actually store the T-16. That's like me telling someone "I go on cruises in my Corvette all the time", and then when they come to my house the only thing I own is an outhouse.

3. Growing up on a farm would never produce a person who is a good pilot. That's like me growing up with a tribe in Africa, and then competing in the Winter Olympics and winning a gold medal in snowboarding. It would never happen! Thus, this is why we are required to see him flying on Tatooine. Given the setting he grew up in, the viewer cannot possibly accept he could have developed into such a good pilot. Merely hearing from Ben that "I've heard you've become quite a good pilot yourself" is insufficient to convince anyone that Luke is a capable pilot.

4. Luke's training on Tatooine involved attacking womp rats. This occured in a desert with nobody attacking him. During the attack on the Death Star, Luke was being fired at by turbo lasers and TIE-Fighters, not to mention flying in space for the first time ever! He would have been killed in seconds. Instincts alone would not have been enough for him to destroy the Death Star.

If I was in that briefing room when Luke was talking like he's "All THAT", I would have kicked his inexperienced piloting ass.

[Helena]

1. It's ridiculous to assume that the Lars would own that T-16. They wouldn't need a ship like that to farm their moisture. Also, given how much Owen seems irritated by being placed with the burden of raising Luke, there is no way in hell he would ever buy a T-16 so Luke could develop piloting skills.

Hang on... why on earth are we assuming it's his own T-16? He wouldn't have to own his own ship in order to develop piloting skills (and if he did, why wouldn't he and Obi-Wan have taken that to Alderaan?). There could easily have been some kind of airbase nearby where he went for training, and could hire ships for a short period - that's how my dad's friend learned to fly small planes, by taking lessons at the local airport. He might even have taken part in mock combat training.

4. Luke's training on Tatooine involved attacking womp rats. This occured in a desert with nobody attacking him. During the attack on the Death Star, Luke was being fired at by turbo lasers and TIE-Fighters, not to mention flying in space for the first time ever! He would have been killed in seconds. Instincts alone would not have been enough for him to destroy the Death Star.

Except that he had a whole squadron of fighters to help him fight them off - all he had to do was stay out of the way and concentrate on hitting the exhaust port while they dealt with the TIEs. Not to mention that, as I pointed out before, there's no reason to suppose this is his first time in space or even in combat. The truth is that we know nothing about Luke's previous training or experience apart from what can be implied from his obvious skill; you're just inventing problems where they don't exist. If you want to pick holes in ANH, find a better target.

[CowboyCurtis]

Hang on... why on earth are we assuming it's his own T-16? He wouldn't have to own his own ship in order to develop piloting skills (and if he did, why wouldn't he and Obi-Wan have taken that to Alderaan?). There could easily have been some kind of airbase nearby where he went for training, and could hire ships for a short period - that's how my dad's friend learned to fly small planes, by taking lessons at the local airport. He might even have taken part in mock combat training.

Owen Lars DID own the T-16...that's the Skyhopper. It didn't have hyperdrive from the size of it, and it probably was used for "crop-dusting" AND it was what Luke was using to bomb the womprats. But you know what, the point is moot since those damned Stormtroopers razed everything on the farm anyway (hence the smoke).

Hang on... why on earth are we assuming it's his own T-16? He wouldn't have to own his own ship in order to develop piloting skills (and if he did, why wouldn't he and Obi-Wan have taken that to Alderaan?). There could easily have been some kind of airbase nearby where he went for training, and could hire ships for a short period - that's how my dad's friend learned to fly small planes, by taking lessons at the local airport. He might even have taken part in mock combat training.

That's right, he was relying on the Force without realizing it. And you're right, Luke didn't encounter turbolasers in the desert. Yes, that's why it makes it so apparent that 1) the Rebellion is in desperate need of pilots---ANY pilots (remember ID4 ripping this idea off from Star Wars?). 2) This brings Luke down a notch and makes his victory all the more impressive.

Let me tell you, Storm, there's a BIG difference between Luke "the inexperience pilot" and little Annie "never piloted a SHIP EVER". At Luke HAD experience. Annie's crap-antics were totally by accident! "Oops!" "Oops!" Geezus christ, Storm, what bullshit is that!!??

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 30 July 2006 - 06:36 PM

[Storm]

Hang on... why on earth are we assuming it's his own T-16? He wouldn't have to own his own ship in order to develop piloting skills (and if he did, why wouldn't he and Obi-Wan have taken that to Alderaan?).

1. From what I understand, the T-16 is incapable of flying in space.
2. The reason they probably didn't use the ship at all is because it probably doesn't exist. As I said in a previous thread, I believe Luke was just imagining that he was a great pilot (as indicated by the fact that an 18 year old is playing with a toy).
3. If the T-16 does exist and can fly in space, that raises a great question. Why didn't they use it instead of risking their necks to find a pilot in Mos Eisley? The only logical explanation is that they needed to meet Han Solo for the story to go on.

There could easily have been some kind of airbase nearby where he went for training, and could hire ships for a short period - that's how my dad's friend learned to fly small planes, by taking lessons at the local airport. He might even have taken part in mock combat training.

An airbase on Tatooine, a planet which is essentially run by thieves? I don't think so. And even if there was, Owen would never pay for Luke to attend it considering how he was so determined to prevent Luke from becoming like his father.

Except that he had a whole squadron of fighters to help him fight them off - all he had to do was stay out of the way and concentrate on hitting the exhaust port while they dealt with the TIEs.

From what I understand, the Rebel's plan wasn't to defend Luke and hope he delivers the lucky shot. What kind of squadron would be willing to sacrifice themselves so that the most inexperienced pilot would have a chance at destroying the Death Star?

Not to mention that, as I pointed out before, there's no reason to suppose this is his first time in space or even in combat.

At one point during ANH, Luke whines to C-3PO "Now I'll NEVER get out of here", thus implying he has never left the planet and flown in space.

The truth is that we know nothing about Luke's previous training or experience apart from what can be implied from his obvious skill; you're just inventing problems where they don't exist. If you want to pick holes in ANH, find a better target.

From your stand point, we could also say we didn't know what Anakin's flying experience was in the TPM. Perhaps when he was six years old he stole one of Watto's ships and saved Alderaan from a devasting attack from the crab people.

And this isn't inventing problems. If you sit back and think, it makes absolutely no sense. It's totally unrealistic.

Let me tell you, Storm, there's a BIG difference between Luke "the inexperience pilot" and little Annie "never piloted a SHIP EVER". At Luke HAD experience. Annie's crap-antics were totally by accident! "Oops!" "Oops!" Geezus christ, Storm, what bullshit is that!!??

You can't mount up a defense to this ridiculous flaw by saying "Well, it's not as unrealistic as what happened in TPM." Surely you can do better.

This post has been edited by Storm: 30 July 2006 - 06:47 PM

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

It works just fine in the context of the overall film. Li'l Ani works fine in the context of TPM being an awful film that makes little to no sense at any given time.

[Despondent]

It works just fine in the context of the overall film. Li'l Ani works fine in the context of TPM being an awful film that makes little to no sense at any given time.

Nice bluster, Storm. But you're not going to rain on our parade.

[Storm]

It works just fine in the context of the overall film.

Explain.

Li'l Ani works fine in the context of TPM being an awful film that makes little to no sense at any given time.

Why are you talking about TPM? We're discussing a flaw in ANH. Don't try to defend a flaw in ANH by pointing out a flaw in a different movie....that's weak.

This post has been edited by Storm: 31 July 2006 - 01:09 AM

[Despondent]

You're not going to change what is in our hearts, Storm, that's all. You can work up a whirlwind or a hay devil. In the end, the bleak landscape which has been pixel perfected just isn't that palatable.

[CowboyCurtis]

It can be explained in context, and it's quite simple--and with knowledge and images present in the film, Storm.

1) The Skyhopper (T-16) is a lot like the X-Wing. So said in the film.
2) Luke's Uncle has a Skyhopper (T-16) in the film, it's in the background. So seen in the film.
3) Obi-Wan says, "I've heard you've become quite a pilot yourself," which is SO SAID in the film.
4) Luke says, "I'm not such a bad pilot myself." SO SAID IN THE FILM.

That's all one needs to make it believable that he can get into an X-Wing.

The TPM?

Just about everything the gushers need to justify it has to come from EU shit or completely OUT OF THEIR OWN ASSES!!!

Otherwise, Little dick Annie is driving around in a go-cart or everything he does is completely by accident (don't give me that 'the Force did it for him' horseshit).

Now, which is more "believable?"

[georgelucas4greedo]

Phantom Menace -- Its a toss-up between the introduction of Nut Gunray and the midiclorian scene. Watching Nute Gunray, an idiotic pun on Newt Gringich, made me realize that I was in a totalyl different galaxy than the OT. As for the midiclorians, why?

Attack of the Clones -- Another toss-up between :shivers: the diner scene and the blatant, suspenseless rip off of Gladiator, once again Lucas paying homage to a superior movie.

Revenge of the Sith -- the Noooo scene. Never in my life would I picture a slow mo Vader screaming that.

* I'm pulling out the worst of the worst, I think the entire PT is horrible.

New Hope -- the new Jabba scene. Redundant and horribly done. There is a reason it was cut out in the first place. The scene inspired me to step on John Gotti's foot without fear of reprisal. As for the 1977 version, I hate that long nosed black alien, because it looks stupid, although it does further the plot.

Empire Strikes Back -- "the other" scene, because it became a wasted opportunity in ROTJ. Its like seeing a hot girl undress in front of you, only to reveal a very hairy bush.

Return of the Jedi -- The rancor scene, for two reasons. A. Terrible blue screen. B. the stereotypically enemy behavior of Jabba. i.e. tank of sharks with lazers, etc.

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

Explain.

Sure. ANH is a decent film and fun to watch...it's easy to not sweat the details. TPM is hideous and evil and is a chore to watch, and all of it's flaws are magnified a thousand-fold because of it.

Why are you talking about TPM? We're discussing a flaw in ANH. Don't try to defend a flaw in ANH by pointing out a flaw in a different movie....that's weak.

Actually, this thread is about the worst scenes ever in all of the SW films. How do you not compare films in a the same series made by the same filmmaker?

Empire Strikes Back -- "the other" scene, because it became a wasted opportunity in ROTJ. Its like seeing a hot girl undress in front of you, only to reveal a very hairy bush.

It leads to a terrible plot development, but I love the lighting in that scene.

[Storm]

It can be explained in context, and it's quite simple--and with knowledge and images present in the film, Storm.

1) The Skyhopper (T-16) is a lot like the X-Wing. So said in the film.
2) Luke's Uncle has a Skyhopper (T-16) in the film, it's in the background. So seen in the film.
3) Obi-Wan says, "I've heard you've become quite a pilot yourself," which is SO SAID in the film.
4) Luke says, "I'm not such a bad pilot myself." SO SAID IN THE FILM.

That's all one needs to make it believable that he can get into an X-Wing.

1. I don't recall any line in the movie which states a T-16 is like an X-Wing. The only sight of a T-16 is that stupid little model Luke is playing with, and it doesn't look remotely similar to an X-Wing! It's looks more like an earlier design of an Imperial Shuttle.
2. It's seen in the background? At what point?
3/4. Both are pointless statements. If I told you that I am the smartest person in the universe, and one of my friends told you that I am extremely smart, does that instantly imply that I am the most brilliant person alive?

If Luke had grown up on a planet such as Coruscant, where attending a pilot training school was possible and ships were easily accessible, then maybe I would be able to buy hearing that he was a good pilot from two lines of dialogue. However, he grew up on a planet run by gansters and worked on a farm. How does that setting produce a good pilot? It doesn't.

Let's say that somebody grew up in the Northwest Territories in Canada where this person lived in an Igloo and never left the region. For whatever reason, you end up north and meet this person. Their father says "Johnny here is quite a skateboarder" and Johnny claims "I'm not such a bad skateboarder myself". Would you believe this person could skateboard?

The TPM?

Just about everything the gushers need to justify it has to come from EU shit or completely OUT OF THEIR OWN ASSES!!!

Otherwise, Little dick Annie is driving around in a go-cart or everything he does is completely by accident (don't give me that 'the Force did it for him' horseshit).

Now, which is more "believable?"

Here we go again. Resorting to the PT to make a flaw in a ANH more acceptable. From your reasoning, I could argue that "Killing a few random people on the street is okay, because it's not as bad as what occured in the Holocaust".

[StarWarsIsUs]

1. I don't recall any line in the movie which states a T-16 is like an X-Wing. The only sight of a T-16 is that stupid little model Luke is playing with, and it doesn't look remotely similar to an X-Wing! It's looks more like an earlier design of an Imperial Shuttle.

You have to stop and realize that T16's are WAY smaller than Imperial Shuttles. Apparently only one man (as far as I can tell) can fit inside. Therefore, it automatically has more in common with an X-Wing then an Imperial Shuttle.

2. It's seen in the background? At what point?
3/4. Both are pointless statements. If I told you that I am the smartest person in the universe, and one of my friends told you that I am extremely smart, does that instantly imply that I am the most brilliant person alive?

You're comparing Sprite to Coca-Cola. It just doesn't make sense. Your fun little story holds no flame to the discussion we are having. We are talking about the content of the movie. Should we dismiss the fact that Obi-Wan heard Luke was a good pilot? Should we dismiss that Luke knows (thinks?) he is a good pilot? We are talking about the MOVIE.

Here we go again. Resorting to the PT to make a flaw in a ANH more acceptable. From your reasoning, I could argue that "Killing a few random people on the street is okay, because it's not as bad as what occured in the Holocaust".

You keep saying how weak his defenses are, and yet here you are mentioning the Holocaust. What a cliche piece of crap. We are talking about a contained saga. Comparing movies within the SAME SAGA holds logical.