[Deepsycher]

I have a concern I thought of a long time ago to share about what could happen to some countries with free education. They are already putting up card holders on the doors with locks in some institutes for security which also helps track students. Soon it could be all about door access and control, allowing the appropriate people into the appropriate doors.

This way it could make it easier for a pay per what you use society that is getting closer. An example to what I foresee is that people pay for each and every lesson. There maybe machine points or terminals in the buildings where students put in their door cards and pay for the lessons using money or bank cards, in order to allow them access to the designated classrooms. Can’t believe this happening? I did not think so for some changes.

For cards such as ID cards, they can then use this as an advantage to integrate to the student cards and track everybody accurately from remote places. This could then be used not only in public free services but for enforcing age restrictions and tracking out of school students. This is seeing a person as a card not a person. There are so much of opportunities for this kind of control which could be why they are taking a long time trying to plain it out. I will know when it happens to me.

This could invade privacy all way round to track the whereabouts of everybody using the ID cards in this way. Soon to register everyday in learning institutes might not require a person and a register but the student to put the card in a certain amount of times a day according to the lessons chosen. Soon those prepaid machines could start to replace jobs at desks and automation can take place whilst administration grows.

In future guess there may not even be a person teaching in the classrooms but a projector or a massive screen playing automated videos and possibly live broadcasting to multiple classrooms or buildings. A screen to each desk could be the next thing to that which is pretty much now but without the instructor.



Tell me what you think?
Can you see this ever happening?
I would like to hear your views.

This post has been edited by Deepsycher: 08 June 2006 - 08:06 PM

[Spoon Poetic]

I could totally see that happening in the not so near, but yet not so distant future. Especially the being taught without instructors - just turn on a computer program for class... Slide your card like you do at work to take attendance... It does seem to me that people are becoming more and more dependent on technology, and sooner or later, it will be too big of a problem. I already know that many people my age and younger don't even know how to write in cursive, because who needs it when you can type? Or who needs to know how to do basic addition and subtraction when you have calculators? Who needs to be athletic and go play outside when you can watch the television and get fat instead? Who needs to be social and interact with other human beings in person when you can just play World of Warcraft? ... *end tangent*

Anyway... Yes, I could see this as a possibility in the future.

[Deepsycher]

For uniform enforcement I am sure they may invest whatever equipment is needed until there is no need for them and that could be the day when people are re-categorized like the old class system.

That kind of economics to me is about the cheapest.

If one student had a problem in an automated class where the others couldn't help out, they'll probably keep that person waiting until a whole lot of other people fall into problems. This is where live broadcasting becomes handy.

Is it really worth to help out just one student?


“It costs us this amount of money every time we set up live broadcasting assistance. Why should one person get the help when we could be helping five or more people at the same time? For this kind of institution and for what they are doing it is not economical compared to higher courses at such and such places where the students need the help more. We are quite busy and limited to staff to just host live broadcasting assistance to ones demand. These courses get demanding as people go along and if someone struggles or need help we cannot offer, we decide that they leave as they can't do the course properly like everybody else or they can choose to do something easier.”


I am sure at the top expensive places they would use whatever tradition is most successful but everyone has to conform and look the same. In other words I see "no freaks allowed."


It is similar now in certain places except it wasn't electronic for me but that is why I am against on how economics is used. I know what I am saying may sound unrealistic but it is good to think on what can happen for that to be noticed if it ever happens, and possibly something could be done
about it in time.


As again I need your point of view and your ideas to this.

This post has been edited by Deepsycher: 09 June 2006 - 02:40 PM

[Emu]

for some of our classes, the lectures are recorded and put up online. this is good because if you aren't feeling well or can't attend lecture for some reason, or just need to go back and watch it again, you can. also, if you learn better by doing things on your own schedule, you can watch the lecture whenever you want and you are not forced to be on the schedule mandated by when the lecture is given. I wouldn't want this to entirely replace live lectures though; personally I learn better when I am listening to the lecturer in person, but it's good to have other options as well.

[Deepsycher]

Yes, in one place I watched recordings of subjects and there were people around who did similar courses themselves and they knew what they were talking about so that was not a problem. The recordings I agree is handy for that purpose but mostly what I see in my place is when they bring out new equipment like that in the classrooms, it is somewhat for the negative. In this case they might use the camera not to record the lesson but to watch people's behaviour to prove a point, perhaps for when get older.

I am use to one to one lessons due to how I work and the questions I ask. For example for me to function normally in a class, the students got frustrated and the instructor admitted he was struggling to do two things at once. So he could only help me at break, something was eventually done but that was rare and lucky, at least for that time.

I know other options are good but it seems that some people take them too far inappropriately to what is suited most economical for them. That would include turning people away by constructive discrimination as seen before. For where I am, in most places I looked, they use a system of serial based funding and teaching, if there are not enough people to take up the lessons it is not economical and they'll have to find somewhere else despite the information stated on the adverts or site. The problem is that most places close to me do the same now and the course is not running due to those excuses.

For serial: Everybody has to do the same as everybody else to what they are being told. I can't ask or receive the information I need effectively to what I don't know.

For parallel: Everybody sits down quietly and works at their own pace or area by a syllabus given to them. Workers who know the course walk around and the students call them for help.

Usually what I see:

Smiley lady: "Oh it will never happen here. People are as pleased with this College as we work hard to find solutions."
But then it does:
Administrator’s Assistant: "We don't teach in parallel! It is not economical!"
"If you can't work like the other people, you are stupid and you shouldn’t be here.”
“I never saw that on the guide.”

The main concerns sooner or later, with or without the equipment in free places, people may pay someone at the door to go in classes to start with. In return they may claim that tax will be lowered. I doubt it will be cheaper as there maybe other things to pay for in place. For something like this, I cannot buy in masses for value for money or bulk buying is slowly being taken away from people, but they can certainly have people for value for money.

However choices should be made available but low budget shouldn’t give an excuse to impact on the quality of lessons or even people’s feelings. In future those people might even contribute to how well they were taught in the same places.


Still I am sure there maybe a time when that could change.
Has anybody experienced economics used in the same way?

[Emu]

well this is only tangentially related, but a couple of years ago they changed the format of the intro physics classes at my school, bringing in lots of new technology in an attempt to make it 'more personalized.' good in theory, but in effect it was far worse, the technology malfunctioned frequently, and the 'personalized' aspect of the new format just flat out didn't work. many students switched out of those classes and into the introductory physics classes which were taught in the more traditional lecture format, as they were both more engaging and better for obtaining personal help. so in a last-ditch effort to justify the massive spending on all the new technology they bought for the new format of teaching the class, they completely did away with the option of taking the classes in traditional form, thereby effectively forcing everyone to take the more 'technologically-advanced' version (resulting in massive outcry on the part of a vast majority of people in these classes, and really dismal course evaluations.) just another example of how more technology isn't always a good thing.

[Deepsycher]

That does not seem so personalized taking away the valuable choices. It seems to me that they are making choices for the best interest of themselves.

For physics it looks like I'll have to register the course to an open college after I pass my current subject. It costs more but is the only choice I have so far. Unfortunately I don't have a lab which interests me and I am unsure what equipment is needed for now. I am interested in learning about the electronic side of physics and the chemistry elements of batteries.

One reason is that the only place that does it expects people to attend there three times a week just for an hour and fifteen minutes. The bus takes longer than that in traffic and I get bored easily. They said the only help they could offer is a support person who does not have any knowledge of the subject. What good will that do when I ask technical questions, which are vital to my work? They can slow me down as once before.

Anyway apart from that it seems that in my place they are cutting back so much into vital areas at various institutes. Involving the physics and maths, which I hear they are slowly replacing these subjects in the areas of fashion. Unfortunately private tuition costs money but my questions get answered and I leave with something but not nothing.

Other possibilities could include:

(1) Charging people for using classroom resources. They could stop people bringing in basic equipment.

(2) Banning people from bringing pack lunches and banning day leavers so they have one choice for all day institutes. It was a laugh to see recently in an article that a place banned most students pack lunches because the food was unhealthy but they were serving chips and pizza on the same day.

(3) Pre paid toilets. That may collide with disabled people. Accessed by money or student cards

(4) Pre paid Library for non class use. I mean to pay to use the library by cards.

(5) Pre paid computer use for none class use by student cards

(6) Charging students for software licenses in order to use the software packages. Businesses could sell the software cheaper to learning institutes so most software packages can be there but the students have to pay for their own licenses or even pay more for certain functions. This could go on their student card on a card swipe. I can’t see them using free software because they can’t make a profit from it in the places I am talking about. Soon it could be licenses for everybody using card swipes, so students could use the software in most places depending on their ability to pay.

(7) I forgot to mention just incase a student card could have credit on it or be directly linked to a back account.


Can you think of any?

[Deepsycher]

I think in addition there could be many kinds of licensing:

To own a full license for a software package to use in the institutes. The license is stored on the student card which is read by a card reader that is attached to every computer. Which could be put in conjunction with passwords. Passwords could then be replaced with something else such as finger prints scanners. May require a little extra money for the upgrades of the software.

To buy a temporary license lease to use the selected software for a certain amount of time. The temporary license to use the software is stored on the student card like above and can be paid using an outside machine point. Paid upgrades to the software is free for that.

No license but to pay every time to use the software. Could be paid directly from the student card credit. No upgrade fee for that.

Software limitations could including a cheaper price but is limited to certain functions and people have to pay for the functions they need. I mean for functions that are limited.

For the accessories such as tablets, scanners, printers, mouses and keyboards they can be classed as classroom resources. So people pay to use them every time which goes on their student card credit.

Do you think it is possible for the above to happen?
What do you think of licensing in this way?

This post has been edited by Deepsycher: 10 June 2006 - 02:22 PM

[Deepsycher]

It seems that not many people are interested or maybe there is not much of an argument to them. Anyway the good thing is my attempts to think on what can happen with people who just like to economise. Global pre paid software licensing can be a possibility to somewhere that needs to make huge profits and to centralize.



For resources such as paper, I can see that attempts to help make people cut down and use paper more carefully is to make them pay for how much they use. I mean paper that only the institute can provide not allowing anyone to bring their own in.

People can be charged if they bring in any storage device under the claims that it needs to be checked.

Charges set for any parking space and including bicycle bays with automatic fitted locks. It can be operational by the student card which credict is charged.

Maybe for the time when there are pre recordings of lessons, instant live assistance can be available for those who have the ability to pay. I mean for desks with terminals on. Depending on the demand I see starting from pay per second to pay per minute.

For anybody out there do you think that any of this is likely or unlikely to happen?

This post has been edited by Deepsycher: 11 June 2006 - 01:33 PM

[Deepsycher]

Someone might think:

"If people have to pay for these services they will respect it more. There would be fewer problems because the people who are desperate will strive to find the money. They have to make it a privilege so that people take it seriously and then courses will be carefully chosen to reduce the demand this way."

So it wouldn't be about forcing people in but now forcing the ones that needs to be in to pay. Which commodity generates more money?

"Keeping as many people in for the value of money from government funding which takes up a lot of our time and having to prove expensive points for failure or charging people more by making it a privilege. Their actions can speak for themselves because it is down to the learners and this will be good for us because then we have no points to prove for their failures."

"We will sort it out and make changes but we want more money."

Just the attitude to what I am seeing.

Any points to contribute?

This post has been edited by Deepsycher: 17 June 2006 - 12:18 PM

[Slade]

I think by trying to turn even the very water we need to drink to survive into a commodity, we are devaluing our resources. You can't put a price on education - we already have it paid out of property taxes (and yet it's ALWAYS the first thing to get cut whenever the budget isn't letting the politicians buy their new yachts), but they try to put prices on it anyway. Do they really need more money so badly that they deliberately create a food monoply? Sweet Eris, it's a bloody school cafeteria! Maybe some people don't want to eat cardboard and ketchup pizza?

The federal and state governments take far too much money from everyone as it is, and much of it is squandered. They don't need to tax every single little thing we use for more money. And a computer program is never going to be able to compare to a human teacher. I'll lead the anti AI revolution before I let that happen! Damned robots...

[Deepsycher]

Unfortunately they are putting a price on education in some places. For those who don't fit in or can't find the courses they want, it has to be taken up privately or at an open institute which costs so much more. There are some funding benefits for certain courses but not for all. I think this also depends on the funding policies of the area. Some are helpful some are not.

In some places: "Value for money" or so called "packages." If someone does not want to do a course they are forced to do, they have to still do it. Even if it serves no purpose, not important and no help or assistance available for it. A system like that is not in the best interests of seeing people pass the courses but as long as they are there. They have no choice because of the way funding works. The performance of the institute is then justified for people to choose, "Picking the good eggs from the bad eggs." In some schools they seem to show inspectors that people do well because of their required attendance, their uniforms and ties, their requirements to do whatever they are told to do as a part of their targets.

Anybody not wearing uniforms or not attending daily when the school's want or not doing as they are told to do are kept into the shadows even if they are viable to teach compared to the disruptive bored people in the rooms there. They seem to set expectations and enforce it on everybody attending that is dictated to the kind of people living in the area which can be devaluing.

People who are looked down upon are sent to the worse places like above. This is only in some local places I have seen. Pre paid can over see that advantage but it leaves too many other doors open to worse exploitations if it becomes national.

Remembering the term "money bags."

This post has been edited by Deepsycher: 19 June 2006 - 11:45 AM

[Deepsycher]

I have found something interesting. I was searching for news on water meters and I saw this:

http://www.cio.com/b....html?CID=21564

Proves some points. It seems that these companies work together to teach people to pay per what you use society is okay on the cheap.

Before going any further I am unsure to this on what they mean by:

MIT’s $100 open-source-based notebook, launched last November, will be used by schoolchildren in developing countries who can crank a handle once for every 10 minutes of usage.

"Crank a handle"
I feel like I am a bit paranoid. Does this mean 10 minutes of battery life or pre-payment to use their own laptops?

This post has been edited by Deepsycher: 22 June 2006 - 07:05 PM

[Emu]

the laptops cost $100 to manufacture. you don't have to pay to crank the handle, it's right on the laptop. you turn the handle to power the battery; that way you can use the computer even if you don't have a source of electricity.

[barend]

they could make a pedal powered laptop like a lume.