[Slade]

What the fuck is Israel doing? At the end of june, first it wages fullscale bombing campaigns against Palestine because one of their organizations captured ONE SOLDIER and demanded that Israel release some of their POWs as part of an exchange, and now it's waging another war, another bombing campaign against Lebanon because a radical militant faction which Israel is claiming is backed by Syria and Iran captured TWO SOLDIERS? I've also read recently that Israel's been under fire from the UN about ignoring Geneva conventions. What the fuck is this nation doing? It's just decided to attack everyone along its borders over petty acts of violence waged by small groups of people and ignores all methods of diplomacy, boldly claiming that it won't negotiate with anyone. So it's OK for Israel to arrest the entire governing body of Palestine, but the capture of one Israeli soldier is considered an act of war and needs to be fixed by blockades and bombings? What sort of new foreign policy is this, where two wars are waged in under a month over absurd pretenses that lead to escalation?

I'm at a loss here as to how turning nearby nations into smoking rubble is going to help anything. Any non-rabid thoughts would be appreciated. Please wipe the spittle from your faces before posting, and if I start hearing any rantings about the Zionist entity or other craziness, I'll get out the mod stick bright and early. I know it's a heated topic and all, but keep it civil and at least remotely logical, ok?

Edit: EDIT'D!

This post has been edited by Slade: 14 July 2006 - 07:52 AM

[Deepsycher]

That is not good. I can see they captured one person but what difference will that make when many more people are killed for that?

Did the original bibles say that people should be killed over religion?

[Slade]

Well, in the Old Testament, Yahweh told his chosen biblical people to kill the nonbelievers, but that's not at all an excuse in modern thought, and isn't the issue here.

Both sides in the conflict are acting absurdly and childish, and more people are killed every day over it.

[Jordan]

Israel is attacking their enemies. This includes any muslim in the world pretty much.

Hezbollah is a terrrorist group and deserves the wiping it's getting.

Only way to solve the middle east crisis is with an overwhemling victory in combat. Nothing else will ever do. Every single aspect which makes peaceful diplomacy impossible to achieve exists.

1) relgion
2) land claim rights
3) revenge for past actions
4) Undieing hatered

Isreal should have done this back in the 70's when they had a chance at totally wiping out their neighbours. They didn't and now they're living with the outcome. Angry, violent neighbous who start terrorist groups like we have junior sporting clubs.

[J m HofMarN]

Slade- Yeah I was kind of puzzled. I mean, the freedom fighters capture one Israeli soldier who was hanging near the border after weeks of back to back fire. That's not a hostage, that's a POW. Israel has been more or less at war with Hamas and Hizballah for ever, and they have 4000 people in their jails being tortured, but one Israeli ARMY member is too much to negotiate over?

As for the UN thing, The US has used its veto power 9 times this milennium and 8 of those have been to stop resolutions critical of Israel. That's the only reason they're doing this, is because the US won't allow anyone to stop them.

Jordan-

"Hezbollah is a terrrorist group and deserves the wiping it's getting."

Have you ever actually READ anything about the Part of Allah? My god, you just look at people and say "Dark skin, guns, bad guys." but try to look past your ethnocentrist ideology for a moment. The Israelis killed 50 CIVILIANS in Lebanon in just a few days. I know they're Muslims so it's ok, but still, compare that. Hizballah killed5 Israeli SOLDIERS and 2 Israeli civilians. That still makes Israel out as the bigger terrorist.

Hizballah was founded to liberate Lebanon from Israeli oppression. After Israel withdrew Hizballah joined the government, built schools and hospitals, and allied with local Christians to form a political bloc that controls half the country. Yeah, that's another thing I might point out. Lebanon isn't just populated by infidels. There are good god fearing Christians there too as well as a ton of tourists who Israel has literally trapped inside the country, and I don't think that Israel has developed a Muslim seeking missile yet, so when they're indiscriminantly bombing beirut (again) You might want to consider that white people will die too. Think about that.

And why did these freedom fighters kidnap the soldiers? Here's a fun list of reasons:

1: Israel has held millions of people in Gaza as virtual prisoners. They blew up the power plants and water distribution systems. They patrol the roads and people can't leave their houses. That means that for a week a lot of people in Gaza have lacked food, water, work, electricity, etc. Hizballah heroically tried to help the Palestinian people by opening a second front and giving them more room to bargain. Rather than negotiate for the lives of their soldiers Israel is just randomly destroying everything they can.

And you see them as the good guys in this? Jordan, 100 People have died, millions are without basic services. The UN is trying to order Israel to stop this campaign of transparent genocide and the US has stopped them at every turn. When exactly are you going to admit that a turban isn't what defines a terrorist?

"Isreal should have done this back in the 70's when they had a chance at totally wiping out their neighbours."

And yet, in your reply to this you're going to take offense that I implied you might be a racist. I can't imagine where I got that idea.

[Slade]

I don't think he's seeing Israel as the "good guys", just the more powerful nation, and yes, reducing all of their enemies to rubble is a way to end a conflict, but diplomacy could stablize things with much less blood-shed. A fuckload of people are going to be killed because Israel is allowed to get away with this escalation. That's very scary and nasty foreign policy. Diplomacy won't secure peace, of course, because there are always going to be crazy people on both sides who are never going to give in to one another, but it's better than bombing everybody in the area over a few prisoners. It's just bad form! A bigger problem is that Israel isn't just going after Hizballah, they're taking out the country of Lebanon with it. And while the southern portion has had high concentrations of the Hizballah, that's still no excuse to wage a war on the whole country. And a few prisoners captured is no reason to wage war period.

Blargh. It's one big stupid mess. Childish nations get to play with guns and lives.

[Spoon Poetic]

I think both Isreal and Palestine need to grow the fuck up. They've both been warring for thousands of years. They both have been terrorizing each other, and in the past, it was Israel who was getting the brunt of it. You can't just make Israel the only bad guy in this. However, of late, yes, they have been being fucktards on a larger scale.

And it's not even Biblical. The Old Testament Yahweh didn't even tell the Israelis to kill the unbelievers, Slade. There were certain situations that yes, they were told to kill certain people, but it was for other reasons than just they're not Israelis. If you study the details enough you can find other reasons why Israel needed to conquer someone or the other for something or other. And God never said, "Palestine shall never have a country/its own land!" Even taking the Bible literally, what happened was, Abraham was supposed to father God's chosen people, who would have a convenant with him involving an exchange of obedience for blessing (on top of that, most of the obedience was just God telling them to do what would be best for them/keep them safe). Abraham didn't exactly believe God, as his wife was way past the child-bearing age, so he decided to do things his own way, and fucked his servant girl, who had Ishmael. God shook his head, shame on Abraham for not trusting God. He sent Ishmael and the servant girl away, but this wasn't in punishment (it wasn't their fault!) because Sarah (Abraham's wife) was jealous, and God knew that problems would arise quickly. Then he told Ishmael and his mommy that he did promise that Abraham's son would be the first of a huge and prosperous nation, and Ishmael IS a son of Abraham, so he will honour his word - so Ishmael would be the first of a huge and propserous nation. However, Ishmael's nation would forever be the enemies. But the way I've always looked at that isn't that God cursed Ishmael's nation (that would be the Middle Eastern/Muslim nation) with being the bad guys, he was just informing them, giving them a heads up that in the future they would be looked upon as the enemies. "The two nations will war for generations" or something.

BUT -

Wouldn't ya know, that that would be interpreted to "they R teh 3V1L!!!111one" and so almost the ENTIRE Christian population is going to back Israel in every conflict they're going to have, because "it's in the Bible."

You know what I think? I think there are some very crafty politicians involved in this, that are using what the Bible says to their advantage. Some of the things that have been happening are kinda almost following the way that the majority of people interpret the book of Revelations to predict the "end times" to be like, so I think that some smart, sneaky people know that the Christians - therefore, the US - will back Israel up, and fulfill all their selfish desires, because OMG, Armageddon! So they're following the script, so to say.

But I don't think diplomacy will work - Palestine and Israel have been enemies since 49387039847535 BC, they're not about to kiss and make up now. It would be ideal, but both sides have their heads shoved up their asses too far - there's too much pride involved for anybody to be selfless for a second and give an inch.

[Dr Lecter]

My solution, America stops giving Israel $3 billion a year to kill people. America uses those billions to work out a permanent peace agreement. Including both sides agreeing on a border agreement, thus any party breaking of these agreements is liable for UN sanactions, and other shit.

If America wants to be popular again, maybe they should stop telling us how shit their polcies are. Look at Clinton, popular, all of his policies were just as bad as Bush, infact Bush was simply continueing all of Clinton's polcies. Clinton bombed innocent people, fought against abortion, increased the number of crimes that can recieve the death penalty, kicked millions off welfare, (this next one is my favourite) refused sign the "International Land Mine Ban Treaty" signed by 137 countries, apart from the US, Iraq, Libya, and North Korea (Isn't that a nice group to be in? Military dictiactorships...). He was the first president since Richard Nixion not to force car manufacturers to improve their mileage per gallion, that includes Bush I.

Bush needs to learn the art of telling the world all the good things that he should be doing, while not doing them and doing whatever the fuck he wants. He might live to be as popular as Clinton!

This post has been edited by Dr Lecter: 15 July 2006 - 06:09 AM

[Otal Nimrodi]

But I don't think diplomacy will work - Palestine and Israel have been enemies since 49387039847535 BC, they're not about to kiss and make up now.

*counts digits*

Woah... Those must have been some pretty angry microscopic dust particles that would one day become the planet earth.

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

*counts digits*

Woah... Those must have been some pretty angry microscopic dust particles that would one day become the planet earth.

It's a bit of an overstatement, though...Jews, Muslims and Christians lived together in the disputed regions for thousands of years. Sure, no doubt most of them weren't lovey-dovey, but you didn't see what we're having now. The main problem arises from outside influence dictating the value of this worhtless hunk of land. Be it the various Crusades or Muslim invasions or the British and the UN slapping everyne in the face and slicing off a huge hunk of territory for the Israelis to have mastery over, it's know-nothing "outsiders" causing the headaches in that region. Post-colonial border design by the Europeans in the Middle East are by far the most destructive acts in history in regards to exploding the tensions and violence we're witnessing today.

Personally, I don't understand the mentality that Israelis have when they WANT to live there. Maybe it's because I'm not very religious, but it seems like the height of stupidity to create your country smack dab in the middle of people who really aren't too fond of you and your religion. It really is the equivalent of Israel existing in the 1930's and everyone there packing up ship to start a new country between Poland and Germany. What's the logic? Oh, right...religion. There is none.

[David-kyo]

That is not good. I can see they captured one person but what difference will that make when many more people are killed for that?

They didn't start killing to rescue that one smacktard who got captured, but because by having their smacktard captured, they now have the right to start killing. I know this is fucked up, but it's their set of principles.

[Deepsycher]

They didn't start killing to rescue that one smacktard who got captured, but because by having their smacktard captured, they now have the right to start killing. I know this is fucked up, but it's their set of principles.

Oh so they wanted trouble and they knew what was coming. Now the innocent civilians are the ones who can complain right?

[Dr Lecter]

I can see why the Biritish and American government are wondering what all the fuss is, killing civilians has been the British battleplan for hundreds of years now, the American government has been doing the same since they learnt the British blueprints to committing international war crimes in WW2. We want our plans back!

[J m HofMarN]

"I think both Isreal and Palestine need to grow the fuck up. They've both been warring for thousands of years. They both have been terrorizing each other, and in the past, it was Israel who was getting the brunt of it. You can't just make Israel the only bad guy in this. "

Spoon- Nope, sorry. The old "Israel has ALWAYS been at war with Palestine" is utter nonsense. Look up sources. Jews and Muslims lived in peace together under the Ottoman empire. The only time Jews were massively slaughtered was by invading Christians during the Crucades, and they died fighting at the sides of Muslims. Muslims ruled that area for a millennia and there was never anything like this. During the Spanish Inquisition Jews fled TO Muslim nations to avoid persecution. There was no enmity between Jews and Muslims until Israel decided they wanted to own Palestine.

This entire conflict is the fault of imperialist Britain and the founders of Israel. The Muslims are innocent and justified in ANYTHING they do to defend and liberate their nation.

[Slade]

No they're not, JM. They're not any more justified to do whatever they want any more than any other country is.

Dr. Lecter: What of Clinton's policies was Bush continuing? Let's see some sources. Oh, and Bush taking the names of Clinton's plans, like creating the Department of Homeland Security, and bastardizing them doesn't count as a continuation. I'm not really trying to defend Clinton, I just want to know what was so bad about him in a way that doesn't just sound like silly Republican propaganda.