Chefelf.com Night Life: Why are there so many Jedi? - Chefelf.com Night Life

Jump to content

Star Wars Fan Convention

  • (4 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4

Why are there so many Jedi?

#31 User is offline   StarWarsIsUs Icon

  • Awesome Possum
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,358
  • Joined: 20-April 05
  • Location:Skywalker Ranch
  • Country:United States

Posted 07 August 2006 - 12:05 PM

QUOTE
Are they all little Jesus' brought forth by bacteria? Are there a lot of sperm banks all over the core worlds?


I like that sentence. Thank you for sharing. smile.gif
SecretShadow (SuperShadow's main adversary)

Endor Holocaust
FIND OUT THE TRUTH
0

#32 User is offline   georgelucas4greedo Icon

  • Level Boss
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 371
  • Joined: 12-July 05
  • Country:United States

Posted 07 August 2006 - 01:21 PM

QUOTE (CowboyCurtis @ Aug 4 2006, 09:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Right, I figured if they could exactly locate them, then Vader could've just strode onto the MF and pointed at the floorboards and say, "He's there!" For all Vader knew, Obi-Wan was already wandering around on the DS (which is why he walked away). So, it's like a general presence they can sense.



The floor boards were force senstive. They were made out of thousands of watto heads.
It seems like everyone is over the nitpicking. Too bad.
0

#33 User is offline   Jaded Wolf Icon

  • Mini Boss
  • PipPip
  • Group: Junior Members
  • Posts: 117
  • Joined: 17-October 04
  • Gender:Male
  • Country:United States

Posted 07 August 2006 - 01:29 PM

QUOTE (Helena @ Jul 18 2006, 10:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, it would explain the attitude towards the Jedi in the OT, but that can't get us away from the fact that it doesn't work. The idea that tens, or hundreds, or thousands, or even tens of thousands of Jedi would have any impact whatsoever on a galaxy-wide society is, quite frankly, insane. I could far more easily believe that the entire Empire was suffering from some kind of collective memory-loss than that a few dozen Jedi could ever have been considered a force to be reckoned with.


Be it tens of thousands of Jedi or a dozen, saying that the Jedi would have no impact on a galaxy is like saying the Pope or Mother Theresa had no impact on the world as a whole. We all know that to be nonsense because no matter what belief you are or lack thereof, everyone knows the reputations of the Pope, Mother Theresa, Ghandi, etc., and the contributions they have made for society have been felt by all. Jedi in the galaxy would be like this. Even though they may not be all strung out in the galaxy, I would believe that their reputation of powers and mysticism would carry weight with other planets. Would their reputation enforce laws, heck no. But their reputation would carry a certain amount of fear that if the Jedis had to come to your area, you would know you were pretty screwed.
"And shepherds we shall be for Thee, my Lord, for Thee. Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command. So we shall flow a river forth unto Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be. In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti!!!"
0

#34 User is offline   StarWarsIsUs Icon

  • Awesome Possum
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,358
  • Joined: 20-April 05
  • Location:Skywalker Ranch
  • Country:United States

Posted 07 August 2006 - 01:40 PM

I sorta agree with Jaded Wolf.

The Jedi were unique to every other creature/race/Order in the galaxy. They would have made a lot of friends and enemies... therefore, whether for better or worse, their empact on the galaxy would have been considerable. Especially the organization of the Old & New Republics. And they influenced the Empire also. Their secular-humanist philosophy is somewhat of a counterattack on the spiritualism that the Jedi spread.
SecretShadow (SuperShadow's main adversary)

Endor Holocaust
FIND OUT THE TRUTH
0

#35 User is offline   MyPantsAreOnFire Icon

  • Level Boss
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 317
  • Joined: 15-May 06
  • Country:United States

Posted 07 August 2006 - 02:38 PM

QUOTE (Jaded Wolf @ Aug 7 2006, 02:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Be it tens of thousands of Jedi or a dozen, saying that the Jedi would have no impact on a galaxy is like saying the Pope or Mother Theresa had no impact on the world as a whole. We all know that to be nonsense because no matter what belief you are or lack thereof, everyone knows the reputations of the Pope, Mother Theresa, Ghandi, etc., and the contributions they have made for society have been felt by all. Jedi in the galaxy would be like this. Even though they may not be all strung out in the galaxy, I would believe that their reputation of powers and mysticism would carry weight with other planets. Would their reputation enforce laws, heck no. But their reputation would carry a certain amount of fear that if the Jedis had to come to your area, you would know you were pretty screwed.


I agree with this...if you go by what we were told of the Jedi and what was hinted at in the OT, the Jedi were powerful enough that only a relative few of them would be all that was needed to impact the affairs of the galaxy. The PT drastically downgraded their effectiveness by turning them into flippy cheerleaders with glowsticks and not much else. The OT, at its best, portrayed the Sith and Jedi's powers being far more vast than just being able to chope shit up with a laser sword. Between their wisdom and being able to literally influence people's thoughts, it's not a stretch to think that even just having a few Jedi on most of the major systems would definitely help guide what the Republic could and couldn't do.
0

#36 User is offline   Helena Icon

  • Basher Extraordinaire
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,327
  • Joined: 01-June 04
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:Current age: 22<br /><br />Current occupation: Auditor<br /><br />Interests: Reading, computer games, music, and Star Wars (obviously).<br /><br />Talents: Can't act, can't dance, can sing a little.<br /><br />Loves: Terry Pratchett's 'Discworld' series.<br /><br />Hates: Harry Potter. Surely I can't be the only one?
  • Country:United Kingdom

Posted 07 August 2006 - 03:42 PM

QUOTE (Jaded Wolf @ Aug 7 2006, 07:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Be it tens of thousands of Jedi or a dozen, saying that the Jedi would have no impact on a galaxy is like saying the Pope or Mother Theresa had no impact on the world as a whole. We all know that to be nonsense because no matter what belief you are or lack thereof, everyone knows the reputations of the Pope, Mother Theresa, Ghandi, etc., and the contributions they have made for society have been felt by all. Jedi in the galaxy would be like this. Even though they may not be all strung out in the galaxy, I would believe that their reputation of powers and mysticism would carry weight with other planets. Would their reputation enforce laws, heck no. But their reputation would carry a certain amount of fear that if the Jedis had to come to your area, you would know you were pretty screwed.

That's not remotely the same thing. Obviously I'm not saying it isn't possible for an individual to make a big impact in some situations, but the people you mentioned are some of the most influential figures in the whole of human history. Unless the Jedi are all of the same calibre as Ghandi or Mother Teresa, which is fantastically unlikely, the vast majority of them are not going to have anything like as much influence as those people did.

As for their powers, just think about Obi-Wan - a wise, experienced and powerful Jedi, but he couldn't even stand up to Vader in a one-on-one fight. Now imagine him facing Vader and a thousand highly-trained soldiers - which would actually be far fewer than you'd expect, given the relative numbers involved, in a galactic war. No matter how you try to slice it, mathematically that ratio just does not work.

QUOTE (MyPantsAreOnFire @ Aug 7 2006, 08:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Between their wisdom and being able to literally influence people's thoughts, it's not a stretch to think that even just having a few Jedi on most of the major systems would definitely help guide what the Republic could and couldn't do.

Yes, I'm afraid it is a stretch. All we really see them display in the OT is sword-fighting, quick reflexes, some fairly minor levitation and the ability to jump very high - impressive, but not nearly enough to allow any Jedi to take on more than a few opponents at once. Even the mind-control only works for a few minutes at most, and then only on the weak-minded. I'm sorry, but like I said, the mathematics of a few hundred/thousand Jedi in a galaxy of trillions simply does not work out. It would make it utterly impossible for them to carry out their main function: protecting the Republic against its enemies.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
0

#37 User is offline   MyPantsAreOnFire Icon

  • Level Boss
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 317
  • Joined: 15-May 06
  • Country:United States

Posted 07 August 2006 - 05:15 PM

I guess we just saw the OT differently. I took what we saw Yoda and Obi-Wan doing or not doing was the result of them getting older and/or trying to stay hidden from the Empire. To me, it hinted that the Jedi had tremendous power and influence when they weren't almost totally extinct. If there were thousands or tens of thousands of them, the implication I got was that their "unchecked" power and wisdom would certainly have them involved and influential in political and social affairs across the galaxy.

I also assumed that the Emperor wanting them wiped out was more of a pre-emptive strike than anything else. Only the Jedi united could have been a powerful enough singular force (pun intended) to have the kind of effect it seems you're talking about, and yes, I assumed they were THAT powerful. I had randomly guessed that 1 Jedi was worth roughly 100 trained soldiers, so if you had had approx. 100k Jedi still running around, uniting them would be trouble for anyone they opposed since presumably they would be working with additional forces. The Emperor realized that the Jedi were the "x-factor" needed, even if there's 100k or less of them, to make his takeover unlikely, so he takes them by surprise. Of course, none of this played out like that, and instead we have too few Jedi who don't seem very powerful.

Again, this was all presumption on my part. I think the movies would have been better if they had played up this idea more in the PT. The Jedi need to be very powerful for them to only be a relative few, or they need to be at least millions of them. The PT dropped the ball with both ideas.

This post has been edited by MyPantsAreOnFire: 07 August 2006 - 05:23 PM

0

#38 User is offline   Helena Icon

  • Basher Extraordinaire
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,327
  • Joined: 01-June 04
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:Current age: 22<br /><br />Current occupation: Auditor<br /><br />Interests: Reading, computer games, music, and Star Wars (obviously).<br /><br />Talents: Can't act, can't dance, can sing a little.<br /><br />Loves: Terry Pratchett's 'Discworld' series.<br /><br />Hates: Harry Potter. Surely I can't be the only one?
  • Country:United Kingdom

Posted 07 August 2006 - 06:58 PM

Well, it's true that Obi-Wan and Yoda were getting old (though Obi-Wan at least still seemed fit and healthy enough), but it's not as if we see Luke doing much more than they do. Saying you picture the Jedi as 100x more powerful than a non-Jedi is all very well, but there's no evidence for that in the movies. The Jedi come across as normal people with some telepathic and telekinetic powers, not as superheroes. I don't doubt that 100,000 of them would be a fairly powerful force, but you have to bear in mind that a) that would only be the case if every single one of them was fighting in the same place at the same time (not likely in a galaxy-wide conflict!) and b) they would still be facing numbers inestimably greater than their own.

Personally, I have to say that I don't like the idea of these ultra-powerful Jedi at all. For me, the most interesting aspect of the Jedi is that they are basically just normal people; turning them into a bunch of over-powered Marty Stus would ruin the movies for me as surely as the actual PT did. As it is, I find it difficult to swallow some of their new PT powers which we never see in the OT.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
0

#39 User is offline   MyPantsAreOnFire Icon

  • Level Boss
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 317
  • Joined: 15-May 06
  • Country:United States

Posted 07 August 2006 - 09:47 PM

The problem is that Lucas has set it up that they NEED to be hugely powerful or crowding up the galaxy. If it's not either of those scenarios, there's zero reason for Vader and the Emperor to devise a complicated plan to purge them all that ranks up there in importance with taking over the galaxy itself. Yet again, he's written himself into a corner and only manages to bumble his way out.
0

#40 User is offline   Helena Icon

  • Basher Extraordinaire
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,327
  • Joined: 01-June 04
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:Current age: 22<br /><br />Current occupation: Auditor<br /><br />Interests: Reading, computer games, music, and Star Wars (obviously).<br /><br />Talents: Can't act, can't dance, can sing a little.<br /><br />Loves: Terry Pratchett's 'Discworld' series.<br /><br />Hates: Harry Potter. Surely I can't be the only one?
  • Country:United Kingdom

Posted 08 August 2006 - 11:31 AM

Hang on... 'crowding up the galaxy'? I think we're getting to the crux of the problem here: people don't realise quite how big a galaxy is. To put it into perspective: our galaxy has about 200-400 billion stars, the nearest of which (Alpha Centauri) is over 4 light-years away from us. The very idea of a civilisation spanning the entire galaxy is actually pretty ridiculous, which is why we're obliged to believe that people in SW can take a shortcut through hyperspace to travel between planets.

Lets assume the SW galaxy is a little smaller than ours, maybe 100 billion stars. Even if there were quadrillions of Jedi (about 10,000 per star system), they wouldn't come anywhere near to 'crowding up' the galaxy. In practice we can assume that only a tiny fraction of the star systems in the galaxy are inhabited - say around 1000 - so we can assume proportionally fewer Jedi, but with an average of a few billion people per star system, you'd still need a hell of a lot. 10 million might be a more reasonable figure, though still pretty low compared to the population as a whole.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
0

#41 User is offline   MyPantsAreOnFire Icon

  • Level Boss
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 317
  • Joined: 15-May 06
  • Country:United States

Posted 08 August 2006 - 01:46 PM

I think you were taking my hyperbole a little too seriously...there's no real "science" we can go on here with these guys and their universe. Their "powers" fluctuate wildly from movie to movie, and as it all played out, it would really end up making sense if they were insanely powerful or if there were large chunks of each planet's population consisting of Jedi. What we actually saw doesn't work on any kind of logical or storytelling level.
0

#42 User is offline   Helena Icon

  • Basher Extraordinaire
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,327
  • Joined: 01-June 04
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:Current age: 22<br /><br />Current occupation: Auditor<br /><br />Interests: Reading, computer games, music, and Star Wars (obviously).<br /><br />Talents: Can't act, can't dance, can sing a little.<br /><br />Loves: Terry Pratchett's 'Discworld' series.<br /><br />Hates: Harry Potter. Surely I can't be the only one?
  • Country:United Kingdom

Posted 08 August 2006 - 05:31 PM

Well, all we can go on is what we actually see in the movies. I agree that what we see in the PT doesn't make sense, but that's Lucas's fault; it could have made sense if he'd just thought about it a little more carefully.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
0

#43 User is offline   MyPantsAreOnFire Icon

  • Level Boss
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 317
  • Joined: 15-May 06
  • Country:United States

Posted 08 August 2006 - 10:22 PM

QUOTE
it could have made sense if he'd just thought about it a little more carefully.


That's just crazy talk. Lucas has no time for thinkin'!

This post has been edited by MyPantsAreOnFire: 08 August 2006 - 10:23 PM

0

#44 User is offline   Casual Fan Icon

  • Mini Boss
  • PipPip
  • Group: Junior Members
  • Posts: 118
  • Joined: 25-March 05
  • Country:United States

Posted 15 August 2006 - 12:04 AM

In ROTJ, we see Luke, a single, poorly trained Jedi, destroy Jabba's criminal organization. And he doesn't even have a good plan to do this.

Also Luke basically does this by using suprise and creating complete chaos. There is no suggestion that Luke could defeat Jabba's henchmen in a straight up fight, where the latter had some idea what was going on and what they were doing. So I see the Jedi not really as being able to use "magic", but to get inside the heads of their opponents (we also see the mind trick used twice in the OT, but it doesn't have to be that direct).

I mentioned the Wizards in Lord of the Rings. Another good place for Lucas to steal from is the Foundation series, in fact Lucas did steal extensively from Asimov. And the Second Foundation is a decent model for the Jedi order.

Anyway, you don't need that many of them. But the prequel jedi should have complemented a functioning (small "r") republican government that actually had an army, police, etc.
0

#45 User is offline   Helena Icon

  • Basher Extraordinaire
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,327
  • Joined: 01-June 04
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:Current age: 22<br /><br />Current occupation: Auditor<br /><br />Interests: Reading, computer games, music, and Star Wars (obviously).<br /><br />Talents: Can't act, can't dance, can sing a little.<br /><br />Loves: Terry Pratchett's 'Discworld' series.<br /><br />Hates: Harry Potter. Surely I can't be the only one?
  • Country:United Kingdom

Posted 15 August 2006 - 06:04 PM

All that happened there is that Luke & co collectively got extremely lucky. If they'd been facing a properly-trained force who were expecting to have to fight, rather than a debauched gangster and a few of his henchmen - which would obviously be the case for anyone who posed a serious threat to the galaxy - they wouldn't have stood a chance. Luke's plan didn't even work as it was supposed to; the most you can say for him is that he's good at improvisation, but you certainly can't rely on that being the case for all Jedi.

QUOTE (Casual Fan @ Aug 15 2006, 06:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Anyway, you don't need that many of them.

Yes. You. Do. I'm sorry, but I'm getting so fed up of this stupid argument. It's no use comparing them to the wizards in LotR or anyone else in any other sci-fi/fantasy series, because they are not in the same situation and they do not have the same skills and powers. If the Jedi functioned mainly behind the scenes, pulling the strings in secret, you might have a point about not needing quite so many of them - but they're not portrayed remotely like that, even in the OT.

The plain fact is that the Jedi, as they are portrayed in the movies, would not be able to make any significant impact on the galaxy except in far greater numbers than the 'official' figures. I'm not going to argue this any more, because it's pointless; if you genuinely think that 10,000 Jedi spread across a galaxy of trillions makes any sense whatsoever, I guarantee you that you have not properly comprehended the numbers involved.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
0

  • (4 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4


Fast Reply

  • Decrease editor size
  • Increase editor size