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Why are there so many Jedi?

#16 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 10:32 AM

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Yes, it would explain the attitude towards the Jedi in the OT, but that can't get us away from the fact that it doesn't work.

Well true. Nothing can work. It sounded good when Star Wars when Alec Guinness said it.
And AG Obi-wan Was of the Gandalf order.
It doesn't work. It was just some mystical stuff which sounded great in Obi-wan's hut. The Han's turn to good and Luke's spiritual grasp elements solidified the mystery.

By the late 1990's I'd forgotten about the promise of more SW movies. I wasn't clamouring for more. And honestly, what had GL done lately? His successes came from his clinicians with the pixels.

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If you want to see what I mean by all this, try playing Knights of the Old Republic and look at how the Jedi are portrayed there.

They make movies about other video games...
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#17 User is offline   njamilla Icon

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 09:34 PM

QUOTE (Helena @ Jul 12 2006, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No wonder the Order is so fucking useless!


ROFLOL. I love the concise use of language.

QUOTE (Helena @ Jul 12 2006, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Another comparison: imagine that all those Jedi were gathered together on Earth. The total population of Earth is about six billion, making for one Jedi per 600,000 citizens (a pretty low ratio in itself). To achieve the same ratio of Jedi to non-Jedi in a population of 10 trillion, you would need about seventeen million Jedi, well over 1000 times the official figure.


I'm the first to agree with you that numbers are important. However, I also love how history has its moments that while seldom they make sense, they make for a great story. In ancient Greece, it was said that the failure of the Sicilian Expedition (when Athens tried to increase its empire by taking control of Sicily and its vast food supplies) was due to the fact that Sparta (Athen's enemy) did not send an army to help Sicily; they sent a single spartiate -- Gylippus -- who helped organize and mobilize the Sicilians and enemies of Athens. Of course, the story is an exageration. But what a great story: that a pair of Jedi might thwart the might of the Federation army at Naboo.


QUOTE (Casual Fan @ Jul 17 2006, 10:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If I had been making the PT, I would have done just the opposite. I would have had only a dozen Jedi, and each one would have been super powerful, the equivalent of an OT Darth Vader.

In LOTR terms (I just saw the movies again so this is on my minds), the Jedi should be the equivalent of the wizards. Saruman leaving the reservation was a big deal, and given how much power he potentially had his temptation was believable. Gondor, Rohan, etc. had armies of their own, they didn't rely on Gandalf and Saruman to run around everywhere settling trade disputes. Likewise in Asimov's Foundation series, the Second Foundation gets by with about a dozen scholars.


Wizards. Yes, pretty cool. The Order of Istari was supposed to be a council of elders who, despite their numbers, would play a pivitol role in Middle Earth. But it's Tolkien's own story which puts the role of hero on the least impressive of Middle Earth's inhabitant's -- hobbits. Maybe Frodo was to Mt. Doom as Luke was to the Death Star. Helena also has some good observations.


QUOTE (MyPantsAreOnFire @ Jul 18 2006, 01:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I always had assumed there were only a few hundred Jedi running around before the "purge"...maybe a thousand, tops. Like people are saying, having fewer of them works better to prop up the idea of how powerful idea they are and why people in the OT act as if they're so removed from the rest of the galaxy and mysterious. There never should have been a Jedi council involved in the daily affairs of the government...they should have been in and out of society, wandering from planet to planet, like samurai.


The particular powers of the samurai have been greatly exagerated in contemporary history. Evoking the name samurai in modern usage implies the mastery of sword fighting arts. Movies would have us believe such. While there were such individuals, the samurai as a class was made up of all kinds of people -- educated, illiterate, refined individuals, and simpletons. The samurai was a class in society with particular privileges (and responsibilities) in society. They were not a super force, and they were not necessarily a very competent or well-trained military force. And within the samurai class, there were many levels; some of which barely made a subsistance living and might be more of a military servant, while others benefited from the highest level of individual training. Certainly it's clear on the samurai's influence on GL, but the concept of a Marshall coming to town also plays high on the cultural impact old movies (some would say classics) had on GL.


QUOTE (Helena @ Jul 18 2006, 08:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I fully agree that the Republic should have had its own army and police force, but that's not the point. Unless they were at war with the Sith ALL the time - over a thousand generations - the Jedi must have had other duties to attend to when they weren't helping to defend the Republic. It makes perfect sense for them to act as general-purpose troubleshooters - diplomats, peacekeepers, etc - even if they're not part of the Republic's government. Having them as a tiny band of wandering samaurai is a nice idea, but practically it simply does not work; a group like that would have about as much effect on the Galaxy as a drop of red dye in an ocean.


I rather like the idea of the Jedi having been a para-military force, as per some of conceptual drawings. They didn't have the Tatooine cloak, which is a major contuming inconsistency, but more modern uniforms. Less like monks, but more like an elite military academy which drew on an ancient background of religious or semi-religious knowledge of the Force. The Christian orders of knighthood in the Middle East were religious and wore contemporary clothing of the time. And even modern honor guards still carry swords at their sides as symbols of authority and an ancient tradition. The Jedi would have been the equivalent of a galactic G-man, but they also would have made a formidable military presence more akin to the Ghurkas in today's world. The mention of Ghurkas supposedly caused panic among Argentinian troops during the Invasion of the Falklands.


My question, however, wouldn't be "why so many Jedi?" or even "why so few" but, Why did they suck so bad on Geonosis?
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#18 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 10:45 PM

QUOTE (njamilla @ Aug 1 2006, 09:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My question, however, wouldn't be "why so many Jedi?" or even "why so few" but, Why did they suck so bad on Geonosis?
Why didn't we swallow? rolleyes.gif
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#19 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 10:48 PM

QUOTE (njamilla @ Aug 1 2006, 09:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I rather like the idea of the Jedi having been a para-military force, as per some of conceptual drawings. They didn't have the Tatooine cloak, which is a major contuming inconsistency, but more modern uniforms. Less like monks, but more like an elite military academy which drew on an ancient background of religious or semi-religious knowledge of the Force. The Christian orders of knighthood in the Middle East were religious and wore contemporary clothing of the time. And even modern honor guards still carry swords at their sides as symbols of authority and an ancient tradition. The Jedi would have been the equivalent of a galactic G-man [...]
My question, however, wouldn't be "why so many Jedi?" or even "why so few" but, Why did they suck so bad on Geonosis?


How about Jedi as Ninja? smile.gif The way you describe Jedi is very similar to the way Jedi areportrayed in KOTOR. They are generals, tacticians (like Revan and Malak leading the Republic forces to victory on Malachor), they are adjudicators in disputes, they are even involved in justice making, and yes, they fight slavery

Why there are so few of them? Well, haven't we been told that force is diminishing in OT, so why not less numbers of force-sensitive children, thus bringing a declline of the Jedi order and make them ripe for ehem, return of the Sith?

Why did they suck so bad on Geonosis? Of course, for the Clones to come and rescue them, haha. Serves the director's purpose. Think of Uma Thurman in Kill BIll I taking on like twenty or thirty thugs with a single sword. In reality they would have crushed her with their weight alone, but of course, this was jsut a film.
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#20 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 05:32 AM

QUOTE (Madam Corvax @ Aug 2 2006, 04:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why there are so few of them? Well, haven't we been told that force is diminishing in OT, so why not less numbers of force-sensitive children, thus bringing a declline of the Jedi order and make them ripe for ehem, return of the Sith?

I really, really hate the 'diminishing Force' idea. There's no basis for it in the OT; it was just something Lucas made up for the PT to 'explain' why the Jedi can't sense Palpatine. The idea of the Order being in decline, however, is good. Why not explain it like this: since there's been peace for so long and the Sith have apparently been wiped out, people are complacent and less willing to give their children to the Order, so their numbers are falling.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

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#21 User is offline   georgelucas4greedo Icon

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 08:30 AM

QUOTE (Helena @ Aug 2 2006, 06:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I really, really hate the 'diminishing Force' idea. There's no basis for it in the OT; it was just something Lucas made up for the PT to 'explain' why the Jedi can't sense Palpatine. The idea of the Order being in decline, however, is good. Why not explain it like this: since there's been peace for so long and the Sith have apparently been wiped out, people are complacent and less willing to give their children to the Order, so their numbers are falling.



Wasnt that the original story line for pre-OT times during the making of the OT?

This post has been edited by georgelucas4greedo: 02 August 2006 - 08:31 AM

It seems like everyone is over the nitpicking. Too bad.
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#22 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 08:54 AM

I've no idea, but whatever the original storyline was, that's not what ended up in the OT. No one - including Yoda, who's training Luke - ever says anything about the Force being 'diminished'.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#23 User is offline   georgelucas4greedo Icon

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 09:45 AM

No, not the diminishing force idea, but the idea that the Republic became complacent.
It seems like everyone is over the nitpicking. Too bad.
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#24 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 01:02 PM

Sorry, I misunderstood your post. blushing.gif Maybe you're right about that; I wouldn't know.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#25 User is offline   njamilla Icon

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 10:21 AM

QUOTE (Madam Corvax @ Aug 1 2006, 11:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How about Jedi as Ninja? smile.gif The way you describe Jedi is very similar to the way Jedi areportrayed in KOTOR. They are generals, tacticians (like Revan and Malak leading the Republic forces to victory on Malachor), they are adjudicators in disputes, they are even involved in justice making, and yes, they fight slavery


I had many conversations on this topic with a friend of mine as I was writing Shimmering Sword. He really loved the concept of a clandestine, secret organization that was in touch with mysteries and rites passed down through the ages. I, on the other hand, with my background in Japanese swordsmanship see the ninja as dishonorable assassins. The whole concept of a public class of swordsman in society has always demanded public accountability. That's not to say that there weren't samurai who weren't above sending out assassin to do his nefarious biddings, but he still had to keep a moral public face.

I kind of think that you're leaning more toward the Robin Hood model, which is very similar to many comic book hero archetypes. They're people who circumvent the law, because the law isn't able to keep public order. I met an Englishman who told me that Robin Hood is hugely popular among the working class. Maybe our Batman and Superman runs a similar thread in American culture.

Personally, if it's hard to hold public figures accountable to some sense of justice, I don't know how much easier it is to do it for an avenger or an adjudicator. The model works theoretically when there is general peace and the government is trustworthy. On the other side, I would certainly agree that the idea of avengers or adjudicators take on a more potent role during war; against a bad general or against an invading army or imperial domination.

QUOTE (Madam Corvax @ Aug 1 2006, 11:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why there are so few of them? Well, haven't we been told that force is diminishing in OT, so why not less numbers of force-sensitive children, thus bringing a declline of the Jedi order and make them ripe for ehem, return of the Sith?


Basically you're positing a decadance problem in society. An idea I've been toying with as I think about today's American culture.

QUOTE (Madam Corvax @ Aug 1 2006, 11:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why did they suck so bad on Geonosis? Of course, for the Clones to come and rescue them, haha. Serves the director's purpose. Think of Uma Thurman in Kill BIll I taking on like twenty or thirty thugs with a single sword. In reality they would have crushed her with their weight alone, but of course, this was just a film.


It seems to me that this is the only reason they sucked. But they could've died in a more heroic manner, instead of running around without any sense of military organization; without any common sense. A battlefield after the initial clash is chaos, but it's the job of a choreography and the director to make sense of the battle by telling a story. A good example of this is Robert Redford's The Last Castle in which soldiers in prison are led to revolt. But I guess the Jedi are simply treated as directorial pawns like stormtroopers in the OT. Visual cannon fodder to make the story work. As for Kill Bill, well, a lot of people don't get that it's supposed to be Beijing comic opera, not homage to Kurasawa.

QUOTE (Helena @ Aug 2 2006, 06:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I really, really hate the 'diminishing Force' idea. There's no basis for it in the OT; it was just something Lucas made up for the PT to 'explain' why the Jedi can't sense Palpatine. The idea of the Order being in decline, however, is good. Why not explain it like this: since there's been peace for so long and the Sith have apparently been wiped out, people are complacent and less willing to give their children to the Order, so their numbers are falling.


I haven't thought it through but I do recall a friend commenting that the Jedi were never able to know via the Force where another Jedi is. Sensing a presence like Vader on the Death Star is completely different than knowing where an adversary is when you're fighting him. I.e. Vader doesn't know where Luke is hiding during RotJ. It's not just complacency. It's an inconsistency in the story, unless Jedi can only sense their former masters, and not a secret entity brimming with mastery of the Dark side of the force who just happens to come into contact with the greatest masters of the Good side because they work for him, and still the Jedi can't sense a Sith.

It would have been a far better story had the Jedi known from the start that a Sith was rising to position in the Senate and yet they were politically incapable of preventing his ascendance. More like a Greek tragedy where the players are caught in a universe where, despite their best intentions, it simply goes to pot. Like Oedipus.
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#26 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 02:09 PM

QUOTE (njamilla @ Aug 3 2006, 10:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I kind of think that you're leaning more toward the Robin Hood model, which is very similar to many comic book hero archetypes.


Not quite Robin Hood- Robin Hood was was anti-establishemnt outlaw, and Jedi, even when unpopular, were hardly that. I was trying to come up with some real world analogy and what came to my mind were the "warriors societies" of North American Indians of the Plains, like Dakotas. I do not know if this term is correct, I as trying to find some references but they are hard to get. FRom what I recall, these societies recruited their members for their proficiency in battle and qualities like honour and integrity. In times of peace, they just met from time to time, but in times of war, power was shifted totally to them from nominal cheiftain, and they had the power to police and punish members of the tribe.

QUOTE (njamilla @ Aug 3 2006, 10:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It would have been a far better story had the Jedi known from the start that a Sith was rising to position in the Senate and yet they were politically incapable of preventing his ascendance. More like a Greek tragedy where the players are caught in a universe where, despite their best intentions, it simply goes to pot. Like Oedipus.


If by politically incapable you mean that they would have been unable to prevent SIth gaining power in a normal way, using democracy methods, and would shirk from using violence due to Jedi's principle, then yes, it would have been quite different story, the one I would love to see. Like Jedi council refusing to back up republic in the struggle agains Mandalorians, and Jedis like Revan and Malak rebelling against them.

Funny how KOTOR always seems to spring to my mind when I need an example of good story telling.
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#27 User is offline   njamilla Icon

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 05:00 PM

QUOTE (Madam Corvax @ Aug 3 2006, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not quite Robin Hood- Robin Hood was was anti-establishemnt outlaw, and Jedi, even when unpopular, were hardly that. I was trying to come up with some real world analogy and what came to my mind were the "warriors societies" of North American Indians of the Plains, like Dakotas.


Societies, especially secret societies, generally lack authority and legitimacy; and are often considered suspect because they lack the transparency to be audited and critiqued (criticized) by the public or other accepted organization. It's interesting (and not surprising) that Indian warrior societies of young braves often openly defied the council of their elders.

QUOTE (Madam Corvax @ Aug 3 2006, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If by politically incapable you mean that they would have been unable to prevent SIth gaining power in a normal way, using democracy methods, and would shirk from using violence due to Jedi's principle, then yes, it would have been quite different story, the one I would love to see. Like Jedi council refusing to back up republic in the struggle agains Mandalorians, and Jedis like Revan and Malak rebelling against them.


Yeah, that's what I meant.


Any other indictments? How else did GL ruin SW?
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#28 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 07:33 PM

QUOTE (njamilla @ Aug 3 2006, 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I haven't thought it through but I do recall a friend commenting that the Jedi were never able to know via the Force where another Jedi is. Sensing a presence like Vader on the Death Star is completely different than knowing where an adversary is when you're fighting him. I.e. Vader doesn't know where Luke is hiding during RotJ. It's not just complacency. It's an inconsistency in the story, unless Jedi can only sense their former masters, and not a secret entity brimming with mastery of the Dark side of the force who just happens to come into contact with the greatest masters of the Good side because they work for him, and still the Jedi can't sense a Sith.

Um, where is the inconsistency? As you just said yourself, sensing a presence like Vader is completely different from knowing exactly where it is. Surely it's possible to sense someone's presence nearby - as Vader does with Luke in RotJ, I believe - without being able to tell exactly where they're located?

The Jedi being unable to sense Palpatine is certainly inconsistent, but this is my entire point: it's a PT problem, not an OT one. The 'diminishing Force' solution is incredibly lame; it's never explained properly (or at all, really) and it's inconsistent with the OT. If Lucas wanted to have Palpatine rise in secret, he could have come up with a better explanation - e.g. Palpatine being such a powerful Force user that he can use it to 'block' the Jedi from sensing his dark presence. That's not a great explanation either, but at least it's more consistent with the original movies.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#29 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 08:01 AM

Right, I figured if they could exactly locate them, then Vader could've just strode onto the MF and pointed at the floorboards and say, "He's there!" For all Vader knew, Obi-Wan was already wandering around on the DS (which is why he walked away). So, it's like a general presence they can sense.
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Posted 05 August 2006 - 10:33 PM

This post is awesome! I've nothing to say because most people have said it already. Awesome.
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