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Anakin/Vader's Darkside Seduction Did Anyone Envision It Any differently

#16 User is offline   Azrael23 Icon

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 12:20 PM

QUOTE
from the point of view of Obi Wan's faction, maybe the entire PT could have been from the point of view of the Emperor, with the Emperor serving as the equivalent of Obi Wan. And Lucas at times seems to do this in the prequels, but never quite pulls it off.


In the OT good and evil is clearly defined, Rebels=good and Empire=bad. However in
the prequels Lucas created many grey areas in which there is no absolute good or evil, the OT had so much simplicity.

QUOTE
After seeing the prequels, I also got the idea that Anakin Skywalker marries the Emperor's daughter, that would actually be an understandable motive for him to side with the Emperor. And Luke is Palpatine's grandson, hence the interest in grooming him as a replacement for Vader.


That sounds rather interesting alot more interesting than what Lucas came up with. Lucas should have focused less on the politcal aspects. He wants to call the SW Saga Anakin's story but we know alot more about Star Wars politics than about Anakin Skywalker. Lucas pretty much messed up everything from the very start by the weak storyline in TPM, making Anakin a child and catering the movie to only children didn't help matters either.

QUOTE
The thing is, was Anakin every truly seduced? In ROTS after Mace was killed, I would say that he was simply complying with the orders of Sidious in hopes of learning how to save Padme. I don't know if it was bad acting or bad direction (say it ain't so!) but I've never felt that Anakin fell under the textbook definition of being seduced.


I don't call that being seduced, its better to say he was tricked into joining the darkside by a
vague promised, but it makes him look like an idiot when its clear that Palpatine was lying
but he still complies with Palpatine's order all because he is afraid of being alone and has
this unwholesome obsession with Padme.

QUOTE
Azrael 23, I don't think Anakin possessed the brainpower to remember to change his underwear from time to time, let alone be perceptive enough to understand when he was being played.


laugh.gif True. But this is a person who was angry at the Jedi council for not appointing him
the rank of Jedi Master, if he is oblivious to the mere fact that he is being manipulated by a Sith Lord then the Jedi were right in not appointing him, because his mental capacity appears to be limited in that regards.

This post has been edited by Azrael23: 18 July 2006 - 12:31 PM

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#17 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 04:00 PM

QUOTE (Barend)
what does palpatine kill him with?

UNLIMITED POWER!!! i hear you say...

im pretty sure anakin could have got the jump on old burntface McNosabre.


I got the impression that Palpatine was playing both Anakin and Mace Windu. He conveniently lost his saber seconds before Anakin came rushing into the office, thus making it look like Windu was about to assassinate him. I don't think that was any coincidence. I'm sure if Palpatine wanted to, he could have killed Windu 20 seconds after finishing off Kit Fisto.

And if Anakin did attempt to kill Palpatine after finding out that Palpatine possessed the knowledge to prevent death was a semi-truth, he would have been killed. Recall later in the movie, Palpatine blasts Yoda's light saber out of his hands with force lightning. If Palpatine did not require a light saber to defeat Yoda, I can't see how he would need one to kill Anakin.

The only point I am really trying to make is that after Windu is killed, Anakin's choice comes down to either joining a powerful Sith Lord (who has consistently been encouraging him) and ruling the galaxy, or returning to the remnants of the Jedi Order (which is at most 10 people). The Jedi Order disliked him enough before he helped kill Windu. Can you imagine how they would treat him knowing he assisted in the death of the leader of the Jedi Council?

A lot of people here say they would die protecting what they believe in. I don't buy that. Our primal human instinct is to survive. We will choose whatever option provided that ensures a greater chance for our own survival.

This post has been edited by Storm: 18 July 2006 - 04:01 PM

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#18 User is offline   Casual Fan Icon

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 06:29 PM

The prequels could never have had the black/ white good/ evil dichotimy of the OT. They needed to have shades of grey. I agree with Lucas on that. For Anakin to be a "good man" but still go over to the dark side, he had to make his choice for a reason the audience could understand and even admire him for. That meant Palpatine could never be 100% evil and the Jedi's, or Obi Wan's group, 100% pure.

Now the way Lucas managed this, by making Palpatine a con artist and Anakin a fool, is another story.

I posited the "Emperor's daughter" idea because its a simple idea that gives Anakin an understandable reason to turn to the dark side. The idea of a civil war in the Republic, or among the jedi, and the audience isn't sure which faction is right, is more complicated but could have worked. Again, Lucas gave us a civil war where Palpatine was controlling both sides, which is insane.
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#19 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 09:09 PM

I must have an attuned selective memory, because the whole of eps 2 and 3 is really just one big blur. No, it's a smear. An everlasting smudge.

So you can see where it's easy to imagine all of the questions being asked "what happens to blah blah? what's going to happen when blah blah"; and get the feeling Somebody just waved their arms and said "Stop everything! Nobody will care! Come on people. Now we need to do the Volcano duel by the greenscreen and we'll all be done!"
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#20 User is offline   Azrael23 Icon

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Posted 19 July 2006 - 02:03 PM

QUOTE
The prequels could never have had the black/ white good/ evil dichotimy of the OT. They needed to have shades of grey. I agree with Lucas on that. For Anakin to be a "good man" but still go over to the dark side, he had to make his choice for a reason the audience could understand and even admire him for. That meant Palpatine could never be 100% evil and the Jedi's, or Obi Wan's group, 100% pure.


I don't mind the grey areas either, but Lucas never depicted Anakin as a "good man" Sure he
was a helpful kid, but he grew into an arrogant emotionally unstable young man and then into a murderous traitor. In AOTC Padme marries this man despite not having a reason to even love him and the audience apparently doesn't connect to him either. So throughout the Prequels we don't see how a good man turns over to the darkside, we see an arrogant selfish jerk side with someone else all for selfish reasons, so Anakin turning to the darkside should have been expected from the start. There is nothing admirable about Anakin's character whatsoever nor his turning to the DS.


QUOTE
I posited the "Emperor's daughter" idea because its a simple idea that gives Anakin an understandable reason to turn to the dark side. The idea of a civil war in the Republic, or among the jedi, and the audience isn't sure which faction is right, is more complicated but could have worked. Again, Lucas gave us a civil war where Palpatine was controlling both sides, which is insane.


Now that would have been an alternative, but since Padme isn't related to Palpatine then we
should have been given more a better reason for Anakin's turn. Infact I had hoped that
Anakins descent towards the darkside had nothing to do with a woman, but more of a politcal
and social reason. I had the impression that Anakin/Vader would have been to driven in other
aspects of his life rather than be tied down by a wife. I would have preferred if Vader's
children was the result of a one night stand or perhaps a former lover he parted ways with
because he wanted to pursue more politcal power.

QUOTE
"Stop everything! Nobody will care! Come on people. Now we need to do the Volcano duel by the greenscreen and we'll all be done!"


laugh.gif That and the Yoda and Sidious duel laugh.gif Judging by how rushed ROTS was I would
say that is pretty accurate. From the birth and naming of the twins, from Vader being placed
in the suit still raw and the Leia/Padme plot-hole.

This post has been edited by Azrael23: 19 July 2006 - 02:13 PM

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#21 User is offline   setasouji Icon

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 03:17 PM

To be honest, Lucas should have just continued ripping off Roman history. The Republican Senate, the Empire, an important political figure dies and another one seizes power. Ceasar isn't going to sue.

In the Original Trilogy, the Light and Dark sides were very black and white, but Luke's temptation was still convincing. Would he turn on Obi-Wan for lying to him about his father? Would he grab a lightsaber and run the Emperor through? There was nothing like that in the PT, no struggle. The sad part is, some of what Lucas presented to us could have worked. It's like the movies built the framework of Anakin's fall, then burned it down and beat us over the head with a rubber mallet.

Take the sand people for instance. I know I'd be mighty miffed if some weirdos in gas masks killed my mom. Imagine this scenario:
The Jedi, due to their weird ideas on love, have a tradition of seperating padawans from their loved ones. Anakin is concerned about his mother, but the Jedi won't allow him to go see her. Anakin gets more and more concerned, especially when he starts having nightmares about her death. The Jedi, in Yoda-esque fashion, tell him he is not ready to leave. Anakin ignores them, flys off, finds Shmi dead, and goes on a killing spree.
Sure it's not the best, I'm not claiming to be a movie writer. But wouldn't that have been more convincing? Not only would he have his little genocidal moment, but he'd have a good reason to be really pissed at the Jedi. Instead, we get Hayden Christinsen whining about murdering children, and the vague feeling Padme is a dip.

Or how about the Clone Wars? War does terrible things to people. In a situation where any tactical mistake could cost thousands of lives, how long would Jedi morality hold up? It would be very easy to start sacrificing little things, like people to save a city, or a city to save a planet. It's a very slippery slope, and one that could easily have started a well-meaning Anakin down the Dark path.
But we don't get much of the Clone Wars, even in the movie that was supposed to be about it. We get an overly complex execution involving a giant cat, and a cartoon that was better than the movie.
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#22 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 03:40 PM

QUOTE (setasouji @ Sep 29 2006, 10:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Instead, we get Hayden Christinsen whining about murdering children, and the vague feeling Padme is a dip.

Oh come on, cut her some slack.

"I know my mom told me not to date any more psychopaths, but... FOR FUCK'S SAKE, HE'S A LUNATIC WITH A FRIKKIN' LIGHTSABER! What do you think he'll do if I tell him it's over? Join an emo-band? Nu~uhh."

Quote

Pop quiz, hotshot. Garry Kasparov is coming to kill you, and the only way to change his mind is for you to beat him at chess. What do you do, what do you do?
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#23 User is offline   mireaux7 Icon

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 04:04 PM

Like most other people,.after I saw AOTC in 2002. I began to think through all the missing elements of the entire saga,.then I thought,....DAMN!!,.Lucas has a lot of story to tell in Ep. III in just 2 little hours? How in the hell is he going to pull this together?, so that AOTC and ANH are seamlessly connected by the events that will transpire in ROTS?

I took out a notepad and a pen and begin jotting down some obvious notes:...

Yoda retreats to Dagobah: Check

Lucas shows us the Wookie homeworld of Kashyyyk: Check

Luke and Leia are born: Check.

Anakin becomes Darth Vader: Check.

So on and so forth.

What I came up with, was how Lucas was going to be able to tell this story, with such compelling drama that has been expected by Star Wars fans since 1977. Can you imagine that for just a moment...Star Wars fans have waited for 28 years to finally see the bridging chapter in the saga...the episode that would finally reveal how everything else falls into place.

What I didnt expect from Lucas is that he would waste valuable storytime to introduce new, unnecessary characters into the 3rd episode. This dragon-like creature that Obi-Wan is seen riding for 15 minutes like a bucking bronco?,...General Grevious..a robot with laryngitis? I feel that, especially in the prequels,.Lucas has often detracted from the main storyline, and introduced fairytale creatures that are really nonessential to the plot of the story.

I envisioned Lucas, finally redeeming himself for the apparent mistakes made in TPM and AOTC. I expected ROTS to recieve numerous acccolades in cinematic achievement. I guess I had a lot on the table, as far as expectations go.

But this is, the final film,.unless Lucas permits 7, 8, & 9 to be someday made. Its my bet, that, with Hollywood as bored as they are, episodes 7, 8 & 9 will eventually get made,.but probably not for another 20 years or so. The fanbase is too large and the opportunity to seize this revenue is far to big to let Hollywood say no to not making these episodes.

Going back to ROTS, When I first saw it, there were times when I felt the storyline was either being dragged out too long, was being cut too short, or was deviating from the main flow.

I think Lucas should have made Anakin's fall to the darkside, much slower,.more dramatic than what we ended up with. If the force is so strong within Vader/Anakin that he just about rivals Yoda,..well,..thats the story we need to see on film. A much harder persuasion for him to the dark side. A total and complete mindwarp, if you will. Lets just put it this way,.It didnt make sense to me why Anakin would even return to see Padme again after his initiation by Palpatine. If Anakin was the "chosen one", ..had such a strong bearing of the force,.then that bearing was altered from a good bearing to an evil one,.the level of the force he beared would remain the same, but his intentions are now evil...so if he cared so much about Padme beforehand, he would do anything to kill her after turning evil.

Thats just my take on it.
QUOTE (njamilla @ Feb 23 2008, 08:16 AM)
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#24 User is offline   miladyblue Icon

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 01:48 AM

Mireaux7, I am with you on Anakin's fall to the dark side being strange.

IF he had been truly the "good man" Obi Wan told Luke about, it might have been more dramatic and interesting. Instead, we are treated to an overgrown, tantrum throwing brat masquerading as a grown man who would go violently psycho with little motivation.

The main problem with Anakin's "Fall"? It felt more like a foregone conclusion, something that was predestined from the moment the little twerp walked onscreen on AotC, rather than a good man making a terrible mistake.

The very same year, ironically, a movie came out with a man falling to the dark side that felt a lot more real. The movie? Spider-Man, and the character was Norman Osborne. The arguments between Norman's light and his dark sides were truly chilling, especially when he was arguing with his manifested dark side in the mirror. Of course, that might be due to Willem DeFoe giving one hell of a performance, a better script and a far superior director, who actually LIKED the source material.

How much cooler would it have been, had Anakin had some scenes alone, to reflect on his behavior and the path his life was taking? Perhaps even have some voice over effects, as though Palpatine was using telepathy/Sith mind tricks, and Anakin truly struggling to stay on the straight and narrow? Something shared with the audience, instead of forcing the situation by having him provide pointless exposition to Padme, explained as though Padme (and the audience) had a single digit IQ?

Setting up something like the "dipshit water opera" for them to meet in public and possibly be overheard was STUPID. This puts Palpatine in a poor light too, because we don't get to see ANYTHING that might lead us to believe that he is such a powerful threat, all by his lonesome, to the Jedi, or the Republic, even though the leadership of both are simpletons.
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#25 User is offline   mireaux7 Icon

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 06:16 AM

In response to the last post,.Id like to refer back to a comment made by none other than Lucas, himself.

Its on one of the prequel bonus discs,.possibly Ep. I,.where he is sitting around in his home office in Nov 1994,..I think this may be the one,.not too sure though.

Lucas basically starts out by saying the type of stories he tells are the "visionary" type...not the "literally" type.

You see,.Lucas always has these visions about how his story should transpire,..but the literary work that supports it (b.k.a. script) is usually nothing more than Bantha Fodder.

QUOTE (mireaux7 @ Sep 30 2006, 06:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In response to the last post,.Id like to refer back to a comment made by none other than Lucas, himself.

Its on one of the prequel bonus discs,.possibly Ep. I,.where he is sitting around in his home office in Nov 1994,..I think this may be the one,.not too sure though.

Lucas basically starts out by saying the type of stories he tells are the "visionary" type...not the "literally" type.

You see,.Lucas always has these visions about how his story should transpire,..but the literary work that supports it (b.k.a. script) is usually nothing more than Bantha Fodder.


Lucas basically starts out by saying the type of stories he tells are the "visionary" type...not the "LITERARY"* type.

ooops!
unsure.gif
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Posted 01 October 2006 - 09:09 AM

QUOTE (setasouji @ Sep 29 2006, 04:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Instead, we get Hayden Christinsen whining about murdering children, and the vague feeling Padme is a dip.


Vague? Clearly Padme was a dip.
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#27 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 09:32 PM

QUOTE (Storm @ Jul 18 2006, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I got the impression that Palpatine was playing both Anakin and Mace Windu. He conveniently lost his saber seconds before Anakin came rushing into the office, thus making it look like Windu was about to assassinate him. I don't think that was any coincidence. I'm sure if Palpatine wanted to, he could have killed Windu 20 seconds after finishing off Kit Fisto.

And if Anakin did attempt to kill Palpatine after finding out that Palpatine possessed the knowledge to prevent death was a semi-truth, he would have been killed. Recall later in the movie, Palpatine blasts Yoda's light saber out of his hands with force lightning. If Palpatine did not require a light saber to defeat Yoda, I can't see how he would need one to kill Anakin.

The only point I am really trying to make is that after Windu is killed, Anakin's choice comes down to either joining a powerful Sith Lord (who has consistently been encouraging him) and ruling the galaxy, or returning to the remnants of the Jedi Order (which is at most 10 people). The Jedi Order disliked him enough before he helped kill Windu. Can you imagine how they would treat him knowing he assisted in the death of the leader of the Jedi Council?

A lot of people here say they would die protecting what they believe in. I don't buy that. Our primal human instinct is to survive. We will choose whatever option provided that ensures a greater chance for our own survival.


save to say that people HAVE died fighting for what they believed in.

AFTER windu is killed, he's options are a tadlimmited. but if he got the jump on palpy in ROTJ i'm sure he could have done it easier than after 20 years of heavy servitude to the guy.
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#28 User is offline   mireaux7 Icon

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:30 AM

[quote name='Storm' date='Jul 18 2006, 04:00 PM' post='139171']. I'm sure if Palpatine wanted to, he could have killed Windu 20 seconds after finishing off Kit Fisto.

If Palpatine died that quickly, we would have never had the enjoyment of seeing the 100 different "bitter-beer" faces that he makes when he is fighting with Windu.

also, if windu didnt hold his lightsaber for, what seemed like 5 minutes,.pointed at palpatine saying "i am going to end this....once and for all!!",,,and just simply killed him...would have been good too.

i have never been at bar holding a beer for 5 minutes saying,.."i am going to finally drink this down,,once and for all"..if i did that my beer would get warm and flat.

yell.gif
QUOTE (njamilla @ Feb 23 2008, 08:16 AM)
Shit, Fuck, Piss: I had to say that because I can on this website. (Thanks Chef!)

QUOTE (chefelf @ Feb 23 2008, 10:30 AM)
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