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Anakin/Vader's Darkside Seduction Did Anyone Envision It Any differently

#1 User is offline   Azrael23 Icon

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 02:20 AM

I was just curious as to how you all originally envisioned it going
based purely off the things mentioned in the Original trilogy. I originally pictured
a jedi knight seeking more power to explore his potential and to gain greater
prominence, a knight with good intentions on making the jedi order stronger and thought
he could resist the temptation of the darkside, but underestimated its power and became a
slave to the one he sought out to learn it.

I always pictured the darkside as a drug, and it leaves its user wanting more, to the point
he is willing to sacrifice all moral judgement and turn on his friends to obtain it, but instead
its like Anakin was tricked into joining Palpatine, never seduced, and Lucas makes Anakin
look more like an impetuous fool rather than a tragic hero.

The problem I had with Anakin doing it for Padme is that this plot point
stops dead in its tracks and its never mentioned ever again. Did Vader have any
real interest in learning the secret to sustain life after Padme's death? Was it all a
lie by Palpatine? and if he did, then this would have really caused a rift between the two.

The entire reason for Vader turning to the darkside is never explored or resolved. That, quite frankly, is bad form by Lucas. For me, Lucas clearly struggled with Anakin's turn to the darkside. He came up with an idea that may have succeeded in telling us how and why Anakin was seduced by Palpatine, but this is never followed up. This rather important plot segment, which, let's face it, is central to the entire PT, is just discounted as soon as its goal (of Anakin turning to the dark-side) is achieved. This makes it, by definition, nothing more than a classic example of a MacGuffin.

This post has been edited by Azrael23: 07 July 2006 - 02:22 AM

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#2 User is offline   Sieve Boy Icon

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 03:12 AM

I really didn't know what to expect before I saw ROTS, I just wanted to stay in suspense so see how GL made it play out. I'll give credit to GL though from starting the whole deal in AOTC with Shmi death and Anakin's desire to be able to stop people from dying. I think he tied that in together well, but the whole deal with Palpatine seducing Anakin with the "dark side can teach you the power of life" crap was absolute garbage!



The most confusing part of the entire movie is after Mace Windu dies and Anakin supposedly has a meltdown. He goes from noble Jedi who is defying one of his masters for defying their code to, "sure Palpy! I'll join the dark side! YIPEE!!!" rolleyes.gif Even moreso is the fact that he will question ANYTHING the Jedi do but doesn't give a second thought to Palpy's orders for him to slaughter "younglings" huh.gif



I'll tell you one thing though, if the dark side REALLY was that powerful to be able to jerk Anakin around like that (albeit he is a complete moron), I'm be jumping on that boat right away if I were a Jedi...
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#3 User is offline   Azrael23 Icon

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 11:05 AM

I agree. I noticed that throughout ROTS Anakin is constantly saying that the principles
of the Order are being destroyed and what and whats not the Jedi way, yet he goes around
killing large groups of alien beings, gets married and betrays his fellow Jedi at the drop of
a dime. So Lucas succeeded in showing us what a hyprocrite Anakin is.
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#4 User is offline   miladyblue Icon

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Post icon  Posted 12 July 2006 - 12:33 AM

My original expectation, once I heard that the PT was going to be all about Anakin's fall to the darkside, was not really specific. George Lucas had performed tremendously with ANH and ESB, not quite so well with RotJ, but I heard he was going through some upheavals in his personal life, so I cut him a little slack. After all, the third offering in the most hotly anticpated trilogy of all time could not possibly live up to all the hype. It did not.

Fast forward 16 years. Okay, he's hopefully gotten over his trauma, and will put forth the full story of Darth Vader.

From the hints given in the ANH, "your father" was killed by Darth Vader, "a young pupil of mine until he turned to evil," (gads, I love the Brit pronunciation of the word evil!). Okay, that gives Luke incentive to hunt down Darth Vader and bring him to justice - murder. Not necessarily acting like a vigilante or anything, but catch him and put him on trial.

ESB ups the stakes with Darth Vader's little bombshell on Luke, "No, I am your father." So, did he kill "your father" or IS he "your father"? Was Obi Wan mistaken, or was he lying for some reason?

RotJ gives all sorts of letdowns, not the least of which, "from a certain point of view". I still feel sorry for Alec Guinness to have to deliver that P.O.S. line.

One nice thing is "your father" finally has a name, Anakin Skywalker. Why was this not mentioned before? Obi Wan could easily have used the seperate identity to throw Luke even further off the trail, to help with the "certain point of view" bullshit.

RotJ, I maintain to this day, had too much rearranged at the last minute.

From what I was able to gather from the original trilogy, "your father" was a great pilot, and a very good man, who was either murdered by Darth Vader or somehow took the identity of Darth Vader.

So, the full story is, apparently, according to the OT, Anakin Skywalker was a Jedi Knight - a very good man and an excellent pilot, who was (metaphorically?) murdered when he fell into the darkside to become Darth Vader. How did it happen? That was something the PT was supposed to answer.

3 PT movies later, I am none the wiser. For one thing, about the only things that seemed consistent were that Anakin Skywalker was an excellent pilot and he was a Jedi Knight.

The PT Anakin Skywalker was a highly unstable psychotic whose fall into darkness was a foregone conclusion, not the shocking fall from grace we were led to expect from the OT. Blaming Hayden Christensen is NOT the answer, nor is it fair, because he had to follow the "script" he was given, not to mention the "direction".

I remember thinking while watching SpiderMan that Norman Osborn's confrontation with his Green Goblin persona was far more disturbing and interesting to watch.
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#5 User is offline   Darth Player Icon

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 12:45 AM

There's a pretty big inconsistency in that during the Opera scene talk with Palpatine, Anakin and the audience are under the impression that Palpatine knows how to save an individual from death because he pilfered the secret from the Dark Master who first came across it. It would make sense that Anakin goes to Palpatine's rescue because of his fear for losing Padme, and then after the fight at Palpatine's office, Palpatine says somthing to the effect of "I know that if we work together we can unravel this secret". At that point, it would have made sense if Anakin/Vader stated to Palpatine that he was duped because he was under the impression Palpatine possessed this power, and now it appears he doesn't.But it gets dropped like so many other sub plots to wither away on the sidelines.

Asshown onscreen, I didn't think Anakin/Vader's turn was all that convincing or motivated by logically, understandable reasons.
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#6 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 09:49 PM

yeah... anakin joins then palpy drops the deal breaker on his head...

PALPY: "oh, well actually i have no idea... but welcome aboard, now go kill some kids."
ANAKIN: "uh, fuck it, sure."
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#7 User is offline   Smashman Icon

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 10:54 AM

It should've been:

Palpatine: "I love you Anakin."
Anakin: "I love you too, Palpy."

*they gaze into each others eyes for 5 minutes as romantic music starts*

Better than what Lucas could come up with.
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Posted 16 July 2006 - 06:19 PM

Yeah, I just hate the whole, "I know the secret!" to "We'll discover the secret together crap!" Seriously, at the point, Anakin should've instituted the "Rule of One."

3 PT movies later, I am none the wiser. For one thing, about the only things that seemed consistent were that Anakin Skywalker was an excellent pilot and he was a Jedi Knight.

Well, there's even a screw up here, too. Vader says in ANH, "When I left you, I was but a learner..." right? How can you gain the title of Jedi Knight when you're still a learner? Doesn't make sense to me.

Not a major plot issue, but certainly a gaping error in details.

Still not past the "when I first met your father, he was already a great pilot line." TPM still fails to deliver on that one.

More evidence that Lucas is terrible with details, and his scrutiny to them lessens with every film after ANH. He really needed a hardnosed script editor to call him on his decisions. He needed a NERD working for him.

Lucas: Then Qui-Gon Jinn finds Anakin and takes him under his wing.
Nerd: Mr. Lucas, according to the Original Trilogy, it was Obi-Wan who found Anakin, not any "Qui-Gon."
Lucas: You sure?
Nerd: I am a nerd, I've seen the original trilogy collectively, 5,682 times.
Lucas: Oh... okay... no Qui-Gon Jinn...

(I could go on, but not tonite....)
Flying Ferret

Battle for the Galaxy--read the "other Star Wars"

All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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#9 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 12:09 AM

Just a few thoughts here.

1. After Anakin assists in killing Mace Windu and finds out that Palpatine doesn't quite know the secret to cheating death, he has three choices. You tell me which is the most logical thing to do.

A. Anakin calls Palpatine a liar, engages in battle with Palpatine, and is killed.

B. Anakin meets up with the other Jedi, admits what he is done, and is kicked out of the Jedi Order.

C. Anakin joins forces with Palpatine, who after initiating Order 66 will quickly have control of the entire galaxy.

Choice C seems to be the only reasonable option. The fact that Palpatine doesn't know how to save Padme at this point is quite irrelevant. Anakin has to do what Palpatine says, or he dies.


2. After Padme dies, Anakin still chooses to be loyal to Palpatine for the following reasons.

A. Palpatine saved Anakin's life. If he had not come to Mustafar, Anakin would have surely died.

B. Anakin is convinced that Obi-Wan and "The Jedi" turned Padme against him. Therefore he probably blames the Jedi for Padme's death.

C. After being unable to prevent the death of his mother and wife, and losing most of his limbs, Anakin is most likely a bitter person who wants others to suffer like he has. What better way to create suffering in others than to command the most powerful fleet in the quadrant.
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#10 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 04:26 AM

QUOTE (Storm @ Jul 17 2006, 12:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just a few thoughts here.

1. After Anakin assists in killing Mace Windu and finds out that Palpatine doesn't quite know the secret to cheating death, he has three choices. You tell me which is the most logical thing to do.

A. Anakin calls Palpatine a liar, engages in battle with Palpatine, and is killed.


what does palpatine kill him with?

UNLIMITED POWER!!! i hear you say...

im pretty sure anakin could have got the jump on old burntface McNosabre.

QUOTE (Storm @ Jul 17 2006, 12:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
B. Anakin meets up with the other Jedi, admits what he is done, and is kicked out of the Jedi Order.


"oh no, if i warn the others and save the day it will cost me my social club membership... no more golf with yarel poof! ...better just let everyone die, and start my own club."

that guy went to force heaven?

QUOTE (Storm @ Jul 17 2006, 12:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
C. Anakin joins forces with Palpatine, who after initiating Order 66 will quickly have control of the entire galaxy.

Choice C seems to be the only reasonable option. The fact that Palpatine doesn't know how to save Padme at this point is quite irrelevant. Anakin has to do what Palpatine says, or he dies.


storm, i'm starting to get the impression that if you miscalculated a tip at a resteraunt you'd kill the waiter and burn down the resteraunt, so that no one would ever find out that you didn't know off the top of your head what 15% of $22.60 was...

don't get me wrong, because that's exactly the kind of guy I am, but anakin was meant to be a good guy seduced by the dark side... not some guy who went evil to avoid embarrasment.
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Posted 17 July 2006 - 10:00 AM

QUOTE (barend @ Jul 17 2006, 05:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
burntface McNosabre.


crying.gif laugh.gif
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#12 User is offline   Azrael23 Icon

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 08:41 PM

QUOTE
1. After Anakin assists in killing Mace Windu and finds out that Palpatine doesn't quite know the secret to cheating death, he has three choices. You tell me which is the most logical thing to do.


None of the choices are really logical, infact it really doesn't make any sense.

QUOTE
A. Anakin calls Palpatine a liar, engages in battle with Palpatine, and is killed.


At what point? Mace has a lightsaber at Palpatines throat. Anakin could have allowed Mace to execute Palpatine or helped him as soon as he discovered Palpatine was simply lying to him.
Sidious at that point would not stand a chance.

QUOTE
B. Anakin meets up with the other Jedi, admits what he is done, and is kicked out of the Jedi Order.


A great option. It shows us that Anakin could have kept atleast a fraction of his integrity. Had Anakin got kicked out the order, he would still have Padme. Anakin just wanted the best of both worlds, but thats not how it goes. He already proved that he loved Padme more than his life as a Jedi and he infacts just throws it all away for her.

QUOTE
C. Anakin joins forces with Palpatine, who after initiating Order 66 will quickly have control of the entire galaxy.


And in the process throws away his integrity and his loyalty for the Order, his wife and himself. He also loses his wife, family and friends and is physically impaired and confined into a breathing aparatus for his entire life, being the pawn of a power crazed Sith Lord

QUOTE
Choice C seems to be the only reasonable option. The fact that Palpatine doesn't know how to save Padme at this point is quite irrelevant. Anakin has to do what Palpatine says, or he dies.


Its actually quite relevant, because its the entire reason for his turn. I would rather die for what I believe in than be the pawn of a power crazed Sith Lord that will toss you aside when the next best thing comes along. Death actually seems a whole lot better.

QUOTE
A. Palpatine saved Anakin's life. If he had not come to Mustafar, Anakin would have surely died.


Palpatine figures that an injured apprentice is better than no apprentice.
Palpatine still has his use for Vader, so why wouldn't he attempt to preserve him, the Empire is still in its infancy, so even Palpatine realizes that he needs Vader. When Luke came along Palpatine didn't even care if Vader lived or die.

QUOTE
B. Anakin is convinced that Obi-Wan and "The Jedi" turned Padme against him. Therefore he probably blames the Jedi for Padme's death.


I don't see how he could, Vader was the one that choked her and the majority of the
Jedi Order was already dead.

QUOTE
C. After being unable to prevent the death of his mother and wife, and losing most of his limbs, Anakin is most likely a bitter person who wants others to suffer like he has. What better way to create suffering in others than to command the most powerful fleet in the quadrant.


Exactly and all of this happened because he believed in the promises of a man who he knew was a Sith Lord and therefore this should cause a very strong rift between them. I'm surprised Vader would even serve Palpatine for decades.

This post has been edited by Azrael23: 17 July 2006 - 08:47 PM

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#13 User is offline   Casual Fan Icon

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 10:09 PM

I didn't imagine anything specific either, and I think Lucas may have had an unsolvable problem in showing how a "good man" could turn to the Dark Side, given that the Dark Side was EVIL.

What I sort of half imagined is that in the PT, there is a serious split among the Jedi over taking some course of action (manufacturing clones? even cloning themselves?), and the audiences themselves will have no idea which faction is really the "light side jedi" and the "dark side jedi" until the end of the prequels. Maybe there was even a third faction. I also imagined the Republic becoming corrupt, and I actually think Lucas did OK with that. However, I kind of had the idea that the Emperor was a jedi himself. Anakin Skywalker sides with the Emperor's faction, and Obi Wan Kenobi joins his opponents, but at the time this wouldn't have seen as a big deal, the audience would see the Emperor as just another jedi, maybe he wouldn't even be the leader of his faction.

I also thought to pull this off, Lucas would have had to tone down the absolutism in the OT, with the light side being GOOD and the dark side EVIL. And he did try to do this, just not very successfully.

Maybe at the end of the prequels, we still are not sure which faction is right. We just saw the OT from the point of view of Obi Wan's faction, maybe the entire PT could have been from the point of view of the Emperor, with the Emperor serving as the equivalent of Obi Wan. And Lucas at times seems to do this in the prequels, but never quite pulls it off.

After seeing the prequels, I also got the idea that Anakin Skywalker marries the Emperor's daughter, that would actually be an understandable motive for him to side with the Emperor. And Luke is Palpatine's grandson, hence the interest in grooming him as a replacement for Vader.
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#14 User is offline   miladyblue Icon

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 04:19 AM

Darth Player - yeah, that "We can work together to unravel the secret," was truly a "Now you fucking tell me!" moment.

Smashman - That MIGHT have been a lot better. I'm willing to be the love match between Annie and Palpy might have been more convincing than Anakin and Padme.

Oops! Good catch, Cowboy Curtis... he was not YET a full Jedi Knight, but he was pretty close.

It might have been interesting to see what all was involved in someone going from padawan to full Jedi. Obi Wan was invested as a full Jedi after defeating Darth Maul, but that strikes me as an exception, rather than a RULE. (I say might have been because knowing GL, the trials were probably a Jeopardy game. "Sorry I am. Answered in the form of a question it must be, yes.")

I'm afraid I'll have to agree, too, that he was not necessarily a great pilot. Other than the pod race, we didn't see him doing anything particularly exceptional as a pilot ANY time in the PT. Obi Wan's ripoff of the asteroid chase from ESB came a LOT closer to my idea of a great pilot.

"I'm the only human who can do it." It really takes that much skill to run one of those things? I would have liked to see someone challenge Han Solo to a pod race, a man who managed to get a rather clunky freighter through an asteroid field (mostly) intact, while at high speed, under fire.

QUOTE
At what point? Mace has a lightsaber at Palpatines throat. Anakin could have allowed Mace to execute Palpatine or helped him as soon as he discovered Palpatine was simply lying to him.


Azrael 23, I don't think Anakin possessed the brainpower to remember to change his underwear from time to time, let alone be perceptive enough to understand when he was being played.
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#15 User is offline   Sieve Boy Icon

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 04:53 AM

The thing is, was Anakin every truly seduced? In ROTS after Mace was killed, I would say that he was simply complying with the orders of Sidious in hopes of learning how to save Padme. I don't know if it was bad acting or bad direction (say it ain't so!) but I've never felt that Anakin fell under the textbook definition of being seduced.



That being said, he did comply when Sidious told him that if he did his bidding he would, "be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme." After he killed the CIS leaders on Mustafar, I was still not convinced that he was seduced, he was merely doing what he was told to get the big payoff he wanted. Lets say that Padme and Obi-Wan never showed up on Mustafar, that is where I would want a different set of "happenings" occur. Perhaps GL could have postponed the Obi-Wan/Anakin conflict and gone more into Anakin's full seduction...



I don't know anything about his GL-induced seduction to the dark side as I'm never convinced it really happened, even Darth Vader in the OT seemed more like he was just following order rather than being truly evil. His "evil intentions" were more of a means to an end IMHO, the PT Anakin character was a total bust to me... if feel for Hayden sad.gif
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