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New Ideas for ROTJ I'll give you mine

#31 User is offline   Gerhard Icon

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 08:21 PM

QUOTE (miladyblue @ Jun 20 2006, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
14. Force (?) lightning - again, the idiocy of the PT rears its ugly head. According to AotC and RotS, Yoda knew all about this particular power, and successfully blocked it, a DEFENSIVE move, not aggressively or angrily. Knowing this, he didn't bother warning Luke (neither did Obi Wan, who dealt with it in Clones) about ANY method of defense. Yoda apparently was able to collect it, in his bare hands, as a ball of lightning in RotS, and hurl it back at Palpatine, sending him ass over teakettle across the room. Not Luke, the human lightning rod. Luke had tossed aside his lightsaber, as an act of defiance against Palpatine, refusing to fight his own father, under Palpatine's rules.


You are right, but it's not a ROTJ issue, there was no PT in 1983, there wasn't even a Yoda in 1977, so it's just one of the many inconsistency's between the PT and the OT.
It's quite reasonable that 1983 Yoda did not know about the lightning.
Also Luke seemed prepared to die instead of joining the Dark Side, thus not interested in defending himself or attack palpy (why would he trow away his lightsaber?) but on the other hand he asks Vader to help.

QUOTE (miladyblue @ Jun 20 2006, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
15. Vader's betrayal - now don't get me wrong, this was actually the most powerful aspect of Vader/Anakin's redemption. Why did Palps seem so surprised that it could happen? He was babbling openly in front of Vader about Luke being his new apprentice, and commanding Luke to strike Vader down to take Vader's place at his side. Even though Vader did not speak in this scene, Dave Prowse's body language conveyed his torn loyalty beautifully in this scene. I agree wholeheartedly with Chefelf, Dave's face should have been under the mask when Luke took it off.


The whole Dark Side seduction is a bit of a mess, I mean Vader in ESB wanted Luke to join him so both could destroy Palpy, then why did he defend Palpy when Luke striked him down in the Death Star II?
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#32 User is offline   miladyblue Icon

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 12:56 AM

This is something to think about - I don't agree with all of the points, but the authors make some great ones. They also added 10 reasons at the end why Jedi was great. Unfortunately, due to post length restrictions, this is going to be chopped up somewhat!

50 Reasons Why “Jedi” Sucks
By Dan Vebber and Dana Gould
From The Unauthorized Star Wars Compendium

On its own, Return of the Jedi has a lot of problems. But compared with Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back, it’s just plain bad. Search your feelings -- you know it to be true. Like most of you out there, we love Star Wars more than words can say and will always respect and thank George Lucas for providing a generation of moviegoers with the most significant mythos of the last twenty-five years.

But also, like most of you out there, whenever we watch the trilogy, the awed reverence with which we watch Wars and Empire is replaced during Jedi by laughing, moaning, and shouted insults that make MST3K look tame by comparison. Fifteen years after its release, it’s become sadly evident that Jedi hasn’t aged well at all, while Wars and Empire increasingly gain acceptance as cinema classics. (We could just as easily have made a list of one hundred reasons Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back are two of the greatest films ever made, but where’s the fun in that?)

It would be easy to put the blame for Jedi’s failure squarely on the shoulders of its director, the late Richard Marquand. But while few would argue that Marquand was the greatest choice to inherit the franchise, the fact remains that it was executive producer George Lucas who hired him, who told him how to handle the material, and who always had the final say. So we’ll let Marquand rest in peace; chances are he did the best he could.

What Lucas was thinking is another story. Whether Jedi’s faults are a result of his sincere artistic vision or of something more sinister (read: “marketable”) may never truly be known. But by comparing the genesis of each of the three films, we can make a pretty good educated guess. When Star Wars was conceived, no one had any idea how much money it would eventually pull in. Empire was still a risk, as successful sequels were rare at that point. When it came time to do Jedi, however, the machinery was fully in place to sell it to the hilt. Lucas knew he could make far more money from merchandise than from theater grosses, so it’s likely that the question “How easily will this translate into a Kenner toy?” figured more prominently in many of his Jedi decisions than it did in those that formed the first two Star Wars films. (And honestly, who can blame him? If we had the chance to build a ranch estate and media empire as vast as those owned by Lucas, we’d sell out in less time than it takes to shut one of those pressure doors on the Death Star.)

There are plenty of fervent fans who argue that by the mere fact of its being part of the trilogy, Jedi should be above criticism. We’d ask those people whose initial response to this list is one of anger to apply the fifty points below to their next Jedi viewing and join us in hoping that Jedi was a freak occurrence and not the beginning of a downward trend that will continue into the new films.

1. EWOKS, EWOKS, EWOKS: One of the miracles of the Star Wars trilogy is that Lucas’s bizarre and ever present fascination with little people didn’t hurt the first two films. The Jawas were cool. But George had to push his luck. The Ewoks are not cool. Period. In circles of die-hard Star Wars fans, to say you hate the Ewoks is like saying you enjoy breathing air. The Ewoks are the primary example of many of the points on this list: their unapologetic cuddliness is uncharacteristic and unwelcome; they look fake; they engage in constant physical comedy; their teddy bear design is wholly uninteresting; they live in boring surroundings; several of the film’s dumbest scenes revolve around them; they were originally supposed to have been Wookies; and they sing that damn song at the end (well, at least until the Special Edition). But aside from what we see on-screen, the Ewoks are miserable little creatures for a completely different reason: they are the single clearest example of Lucas’s willingness to compromise the integrity of his trilogy in favor of merchandising dollars. How intensely were the Ewoks marketed? Consider this: Ewok is a household word, despite the fact that it’s never once spoken in the film.

2. THE TONE IS INCONSISTENT: The Rebellion is in ruins, Darth Vader is Luke’s father, and Han is frozen. Why Lucas decided to smother these ambitious plot elements under a load of feel-good clichés and textbook plot structure is anyone’s guess (it’s our theory that he was infected with the same mania that caused Spielberg to make Hook eight years later). Jedi never has any idea of what it’s trying to be. Throughout, the mood and pacing is herky-jerked back and forth between dramatic and lighthearted. The scenes with Vader look and feel like they’re taking place in a different film from those with our heroes, and no amount of special effects or nostalgia for Wars and Empire can make the pieces fit together. Lacking any consistent driving force (pun intended), Jedi is impossible to take seriously and has little to none of the mythic, transporting feel of its predecessors. We’re always aware we’re watching a big-budget movie.

3. THE LOOK IS ALL WRONG: After the second film, did the Empire celebrate its trouncing of the Rebellion by going through the galaxy with a big bottle of Windex? Everything in Jedi looks clean and polished, from the ships to the costumes to the backgrounds. One of the triumphs of the first two films was the fact that it was next to impossible to imagine they were filmed right here on Earth. In contrast, Jedi’s sets look like sets. We can picture cameras, plywood, and the key grip eating a sandwich just out of the frame. Marquand never seems to know where to put the camera and is constrained by the space his scenes inhabit instead of inspired by it. In the end, it’s surprising that Jedi doesn’t have any cardboard tombstones falling over or a brief appearance by Vampira as the ghoul’s wife.

4. IT’S JUST A BUNCH OF MUPPETS!: Admittedly, Wars had its share of fake-looking aliens in the Mos Eisley cantina scene, but many of them were genuinely innovative at the time (Hammerhead is still impressive) and none of them crossed the not-so-thin line between costume and (shudder) Muppet. Even Yoda in Empire was constructed, filmed, and voiced well enough that we never thought to look for the hand up his rear. Don’t get us wrong -- we love Muppets, just not in the Star Wars universe. And Jedi’s Gamorrean guards (only slightly less realistic than a Tor Johnson Halloween mask), Salacious Crumb (it’s good to see the Great Gonzo is still getting work) and Max Rebo (the blue piano-playing elephant with the oft-visible wire controlling his trunk) are proof that you can take the Henson studio out of Sesame Street but you can’t take Sesame Street out of the Henson studio. Will the Criterion Edition laser disc include the deleted footage of Statler and Waldorf cracking wise from the balcony?

5. PAINFUL LACK OF INNOVATION: When it comes to scavenging, Lucas could teach even the Jawas a thing or two. Jedi borrows from Wars on levels ranging from conceptual to minute. There’s another opening scene with a Star Destroyer (though this time it isn’t even permitted to finish its awesome crawl across the top of the screen). There’s another Imperial stronghold to infiltrate and another energy beam to turn off. And of course, there’s another Death Star to blow up for the film’s climax (though at least the Emperor had enough brains to plug up that pesky exhaust port). Most of the creatures and droids seen on Tatooine in Wars make background appearances in Jabba’s court -- even Greedo’s alive and well! (Okay, maybe it’s a different Rodian. They all look the same to us). Finally, little thought seems to have been given to developing or maturing any of the main characters in a realistic manner. Han and Threepio suffer most, coming across as catch-phrase-spouting caricatures of their previous selves.

6. WITTY BANTER: Note to writer Lawrence Kasdan: If you must fill your script with witty banter, at least try to make it, well, witty. With one or two exceptions, the humor in Wars and Empire was subtle, based around throwaway lines and the personality quirks of well-written characters. Jedi’s overly contrived “humor” too often seems inspired by the setup-to-punch line wordplay found in a typical episode of Three’s Company. In what is probably the film’s single most painful moment, Solo requests Threepio to do a number of chores. After continually tapping him on the shoulder and preventing him from leaving to complete his duties, Solo quips, “Hurry up, will ya? I haven’t got all day.” Har-dee-har-har. Based on witticisms like that, it’s amazing that Luke never rebuked the Emperor by stating “Up your nose with a rubber hose.”

7. PHYSICAL COMEDY: This is a galactic rebellion, for heaven’s sake! Yet an Ewok clocks himself with his own slingshot. Threepio’s legs point skyward after he falls off the skiff into the sand. Countless adorable Muppets zanily cover their eyes or flip-duck off their perches when faced with tense situations. Worst of all, there are two solid instances where burps are used for cheap laughs. Burps! And where are the fart jokes? Well, maybe in the next film. Jedi is as good a parody of the trilogy as one could hope for; there was really no need for Mel Brooks to make Spaceballs.

8. UNINTERESTING LOCALES: Wars and Empire took us to locales that many of us have never been to in real life, namely a vast desert, a run-down spaceport, an enormous space battle station, a planet of ice and snow, a dense, slithering swamp, and a floating cloud city. Jedi just rehashes what we’ve already seen (though Jedi’s Tatooine looks significantly less exotic than it did in Wars, having been filmed in California instead of Tunisia), adding only one new biome: the woods (oh, so that’s what trees look like). If this pattern continues, expect the next Star Wars film to be set on the mysterious planet of sidewalks and suburban ranch homes.

9. THE FOREST BATTLE ON ENDOR: If we wanted to see improbable jungle shenanigans, we’d have rented Battle for the Planet of the Apes. The myriad traps and offensive weapons constructed by the Ewoks (apparently over the course of one night) work with such predictable precision against the Imperials that the “battle” is little more than scene after predictable scene of sticks and stones taking out high-tech weaponry and forest-trained stormtroopers. Jedi may be a fantasy film, but the Ewoks’ victory still flies in the face of all reason, logic, and precedent. It’s a cute little war in which dozens of human stormtroopers are beaten to death and we’re treated to only one dead Ewok. Happily, audiences have always responded to the stupidity of this imbalance: in screening after screening, the Ewok’s groaning demise is typically met with more cheers and applause than the destruction of the Death Star.

10. SOLO: In Empire, Threepio states that the carbonite would keep Solo safe, provided he survived the freezing process. Safe, yes, but Threepio said nothing about the side effects. Namely, that people in carbon-freeze gain twenty pounds and take on the demeanor of Ward Cleaver on Quaaludes. Wars and Empire established Solo as a braggart, pirate, and all-around scoundrel. In Jedi, he’s just a good-hearted, slack-jawed simp whose comments and actions are almost exclusively played for laughs. In not a single scene does Solo have the same acerbic edge he possessed in the previous films. Harrison Ford does nothing to help the situation (perhaps to his credit), acting with a boredom rarely paralleled as he kills time waiting for another Indiana Jones installment.

11. MUSIC: The soundtrack to Wars is an unquestioned classic. Empire’s soundtrack gave us the trilogy’s best piece of music: “The Imperial March.” What does Jedi have to offer? Some playful Peter and the Wolf-esque Ewok tunes and Jabba’s foam-and-latex band. The song “Lapti Nek’ was translated into English for an MTV video, and we learned that “Lapti Nek” actually means “workin’ out.” That whole Flashdance craze was certainly popular back in 1983, but now it’s just embarrassing. Jabba’s band is a pale imitation of Wars’ cantina musicians. The Muppets look fake, and the music they play is truly wretched. (Yet one of the scenes added to the Special Edition Jedi is another song by the band!) Even more insipid, though, is the Ewoks’ celebratory “Yub-yub” number at the end (now cut from the Special Edition), which sounds suspiciously as if it’s sung not by Ewoks but by humans. The theme to the Alien Nation TV show sounded more authentic.

12. THREEPIO: Threepio was bearable in Wars because he and Artoo played an integral role in the unfolding of the plot. He got on our nerves in Empire, but we could at least sympathize with the human characters, who were more or less stuck with him and expressed their irritation. In Jedi, Threepio’s along by choice, and everyone just loves chuckling at the way he screws everything up. They decide to bring him along to Endor for no good reason, and we’re all forced to endure another barrage of predictable outbursts highlighting the shiny droid’s cowardice, ego, and annoying verbosity. Shut him up or shut him down!

13. OBI-WAN’S APPEARANCE TO LUKE: In case you missed the first two films, Obi-Wan Kenobi is supposed to be dead. In Wars and Empire, he made himself known to Luke through an occasional voice in the head or in a floating vision. In Jedi, all of Obi-Wan’s street credibility as a wizened spiritual guide is thrown out the window when he appears on Dagobah and shuffles around like Fred G. Sanford in a coat of glow paint. Rather than floating in one place, he fades in twenty feet away and walks up to Luke, eventually resting his non-corporeal butt on a rock. The ensuing two-way conversation scrambles to tie up too many loose ends at once, made worse by the fact that the character saying it all shouldn’t even be there on such a literal level. And unlike his similarly flawed Dagobah appearance in Empire, Obi-Wan never fades back into oblivion once his message is delivered in Jedi. For all we know, he and Luke could have spent hours hanging out and gossiping like housewives.

14. LUKE: We like Mark Hamill, really. But though he was perfectly cast as the wet-behind-the-ears student in the first two films, he simply lacks the dignity to pull off a believable Jedi Knight. To top things off, he has Aunt Beru’s haircut from the first film. We forget, was Jedi released before or after the advent of the Supercuts salon chain?

15. SURPRISE! THEY’RE BROTHER AND SISTER: After Jedi came out, Lucas would routinely go on record stating that in his mind, Star Wars was always first and foremost a story about a brother and a sister. Does anybody really buy this? Wars and Empire both had sexually charged scenes that play significantly creepier when watched with the knowledge that Luke and Leia are siblings. It seems unlikely that Lucas would have included those scenes if he knew that one day people would be seeing them from such a different perspective. What seems likely, however, is that when Jedi came around, Lucas was grasping at straws, searching desperately for a plot revelation to equal Empire’s classic father/son moment. Oh well -- even if Lucas is telling the truth (Yoda did, after all, say in Empire that there was “another”), the issue could have been handled in a less clumsy manner. Having Luke and Leia learn about their relationship through means other than spur-of-the-moment (albeit Force-guided) guesses would have been a start.

16. UNFORGIVABLE DIALOGUE: Threepio approaching Jabba’s palace: “I have a bad feeling about this”; Han Solo, when confronted by Ewoks: “I have a bad feeling about this”; Leia, after releasing Solo from carbon freeze: “I gotta get you outta here”; Leia, after being freed from Jabba’s chains: “We gotta get outta here”; Leia, after she and an Ewok are ambushed on Endor: “Let’s get outta here.” With dialogue like this, it seems Lucas finally put that “million monkeys at a million typewriters” theory to the test.

17. HORRIBLE EXPOSITION: “Artoo, look! It’s Captain Solo -- and he’s still in carbonite!” Lines like this are for those people who somehow missed the first two movies. Threepio is the main offender throughout, even going so far as to offer a long, Ewokese summary of the trilogy’s plot thus far (with sound effects, no less). Of course, Lucas would probably say that scene was to show “the entrancing magic of storytelling.” Call us cynical, but entrancing magic makes us want to puke.

18. JABBA THE MUPPET: Er -- Hutt. Jabba isn’t all that scary. It seems Lucas became so enamored of his technology that he forgot humans are far more ominous than any shop-built alien life-form could ever hope to be. Remember Grand Moff Tarkin? Now there was a creepy villain. We’re so busy trying to figure out where all the puppeteers were hiding beneath Jabba’s frame that we’re never able to accept him as a living, breathing character. And no matter how you cut it, his eyelids still look fake. If only they hadn’t lost the phone number of that fat Irish guy who originally played him in that deleted Wars scene.

19. STUPID COINCIDENCES: “We have been without an interpreter since our master got angry with our last protocol droid and disintegrated him.” Pan over to said droid being pulled apart in a machine, to allow for a startled reaction shot by Threepio. Numerous scenes like this further damage Jedi’s ability to convince us this stuff is really happening. Jabba and his minions sit silently behind the Let’s Make a Deal curtain, and the fact that the escape skiff just happens to have two magnetic retrieval devices to pluck the fallen droids out of the sand are further examples of this problem. None of these scenes needed to center around such ridiculous leaps in logic; more often than not they’re simply indicative of lazy screenwriting or are inserted for excessive rim-shot-ready moments.

20. BOBA FETT’S DEATH: It’s inexcusable that such an imposing figure as Boba Fett -- the one bounty hunter good enough to capture Solo -- flies clumsily to his death in the Sarlacc pit while screaming like Shemp from the Three Stooges. Any Star Wars geek worth his weight in trading cards will tell you that Boba Fett is the trilogy’s most underused character. His brief but badass appearance in Empire had us all anxiously awaiting the next film, assuming his role would be greatly expanded by the events surrounding what we then thought would be an incredible escape by Han. Not only does Fett have nothing to do in Jedi, but in the ultimate indignity, he’s killed off without ceremony or honor for no better reason than another damn burp joke. According to the novels and comics, Fett survived. But that’s not what’s implied in the film itself, and it doesn’t make the scene any less shameful. Who cares though? I'm with Chefelf, what was the fuss over Boba Fett, other than the parody I cannot find at the moment called "Bubba Fett: A Lost Hope", the saga about Boba Fett's lost cause, beer drinking brother.

21. TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE POSTPRODUCTION LOOPING: In about half of Jedi’s scenes, little attempt is made to match the dialogue with the characters’ lip movements -- it’s almost like watching a Mothra flick. If Lucas were smart, he’d blame this on the film’s being dubbed from its original language. You know -- the one they spoke a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

22. SUBPAR SPECIAL EFFECTS: It’s strange that the film that gave us sci-fi’s most intricate and well-choreographed space battle to date also gave us so many effects that look just plain silly. The rancor aside (see below), consider Han’s light-streaming release from the carbonite, the seemingly Magic Markered shadow under Jabba’s sail barge, and the explosion of the shield generator on Endor (in which Han and his team, about twenty feet from the bunker, aren’t affected in the slightest by an explosion that, from our viewpoint, engulfs several square miles of forest).

23. THE RANCOR EFFECTS: In quite probably the worst use of a blue screen in the history of big-budget film, the rancor looks so awful it deserves its own separate mention. Planning this sequence, the ILM team seems to have been inspired by old episodes of Lidsville, as the admittedly well-designed puppet appears at all times either flat or two-dimensional or surrounded by an unearthly glow. This is one effect we won’t mind seeing cleaned up.

24. LEIA AND HAN’S RELATIONSHIP: It’s A Galaxy Far, Far Away 90210! The subtle, repressed passion of Empire is simplified to high school relationship levels in Jedi. They kiss, they say “I love you,” Han throws a hissy fit and gets jealous of Luke. The couple play off each other in such obvious ways that we’re reminded of the Screenwriting 101 rule of “show, don’t tell.” Han and Leia never look or act like two adults in love -- and no amount of gushy language can cover up that fact.

25. CARRIE FISHER’S “ACTING”: Han: “Who are you?” Leia: “Someone who loves you.” When Carrie Fisher isn’t staring vacantly into space, she’s emoting to degrees previously seen only in Mexican soap operas. At least today she’s cool enough to admit that she was zoned out on coke the entire time.

26. OBVIOUS MISSED OPPORTUNITIES: Putting aside the fact that the entire movie is a missed opportunity in the context of the trilogy, Jedi has specific missed opportunities too numerous to count within its own structure. These range from major (Lucas’s throwaway admission that he had originally intended Endor to be a planet of Wookiees, and the fact that Lando doesn’t die in the Death Star assault, as Jedi’s original script dictated) to picayune (when the Alliance fleet suddenly realizes the Death Star’s shield is still functional, it would have been nice to see one or two X-Wings crash into said shield and explode, having not had enough time to pull up).

27. YODA: In Empire, Yoda was a sagacious sprite who brought to mind Gaelic legend. In Jedi, he’s an annoying toad who sounds like Super Grover (thanks to Frank Oz’s forgetting how to do the voice) and looks about as realistic as his Kenner action-figure likeness (thanks to bad, overlit cinematography; see point 3). Like the movie he’s stuck in, Jedi’s Yoda is lacking in wisdom and festering with cuteness. Get out your laser discs (okay, or your videotapes) and compare the two Yodas head-to-head. You’ll be surprised.

28. THE OPENING TEXT CRAWL: Let’s compare the opening text crawl in which we are given our first taste of each of the three films, shall we? Star Wars: “It is a period of civil war...” Empire: “It is a dark time for the Rebellion...” Jedi: “Luke Skywalker has returned to his home planet of Tatooine in an attempt to rescue his friend Han Solo from the clutches of the vile gangster Jabba the Hutt. Charo guest stars.” Okay, we threw in the part about Charo. But the point is, we’re talking mythic tracts versus a blurb from TV Guide. The first sentence in Jedi centers around the word friend. Well, that’s just peachy, but we much prefer the first two films’ implications that we’re about to see something a bit larger than a buddy picture.

29. IMPERIAL TECHNOLOGY: Imperial engineers should really figure out a way to keep their vehicles from blowing up so easily, both in space and on the ground. In Jedi, not only does a single crashed A-Wing take out an entire eight-kilometer Super Star Destroyer, but several scout walkers explode like Pintos whenever something taps them a little too hard. (True, the Imperial walkers in Empire could be tripped up a bit easily, but at least they didn’t burst into fireballs until hit by Rebel blaster fire.) It seems strange that the Rebels even bothered procuring spaceships and blasters -- based on what Jedi shows us, the Empire could have been defeated with a couple of well-placed safety pins.

30. JABBA’S DROID TORTURE ROOM: First of all, torturing droids is stupid on a purely conceptual level, seeing as how they’re machines and all. But what on earth was going through Lucas and Marquand’s heads when they decided to play the scene in Jabba’s droid room for laughs? Wars and Empire both have torture scenes. They’re pretty unsettling. Know why? Because they’re torture scenes, for Christ’s sake! Torture’s not supposed to be funny -- no one wants to laugh at a screaming power droid as a bad steam effect shoots out of its feet to simulate the application of intense heat. But to the makers of Jedi, there’s nothing like a little humor at the expense of torture victims, even if they are mechanical. Following the release of Jedi, Amnesty International must have logged hundreds of reports of people flogging their waffle irons and blenders.

31. USE OF EARTH SLANG AND POP CULTURE: We were almost willing to forgive the fact that an Ewok exclaims “Yahoo,” or that Threepio uses the supposedly Ewokese word boom, until we saw the abominable scene where an Ewok swings from a vine and lets out a note-for-note copy of Tarzan’s famous yell. Have we mentioned that we hate the Ewoks?

32. JEDI AFTERLIFE: The Jedi apparently have a lot in common with the Catholics. You can screw up your entire life, strangle scores of people, and oversee the construction of a planet-destroying battle station, but as long as you repent with your last breath, you get to party with Yoda and Ben in the netherworld. Speaking of that, Yoda seems to have gotten the short end of the afterlife stick -- why does Anakin’s ghost get to regrow his hair and get all spiffed up and nice looking, while Yoda, who managed to resist the dark side all his nine-hundred-plus years, still looks like a crumpled old salamander?

33. UNREALISTIC, BORING FIGHT SEQUENCES: Why stage an elaborate hand-to-hand fight with a scout trooper when you can just have Solo use the old “shoulder tap” trick? Or when you can throw a duffel bag at an Imperial guard and he’ll backflip over a railing and into the shield generator’s energy core? Not since Charlton Heston took out a gorilla bare-handed have we been asked to swallow such nonsense.

34. STORMTROOPERS HAVE BECOME WUSSES: “Look out -- teddy bear creatures! And they’ve got primitive handmade weapons! Let’s forget our years of intense military training, put down our high-tech weaponry, and run away!”

35. VADER’S REAL FACE: You know, Darth, that scar will never heal unless you stop scratching it. But enough with the clever bon mots -- it should have been David Prowse under that helmet. Period. He deserved at least that much, and probably would have been willing to shave his head. Sebastian Whatsisname [Shaw] delivers an acceptable acting job (actually, one of Jedi’s only acceptable acting jobs), but that pudgy head just doesn’t match up with the body we see on Vader throughout the rest of the trilogy.

36. BAD EDITING: It seems that the folks at Supercuts were hired by Lucasfilm not only to style the actors’ coils but to hack and splice the film as well. That Jedi has problems with its editing is largely a subjective opinion and hard to quantify, but we base our belief on the fact that certain scenes just plain lack the punch and pacing we know they could and should have had (though whether this is the director’s fault or the editor’s isn’t always clear).

37. THE ALIEN LANGUAGES ARE POORLY PRESENTED: Bib Fortuna repeatedly lapses from Huttese into English for no apparent reason, and we learn from Leia’s bounty hunter alter ego that at least one translation of “Thirty thousand, no less” is “Yoto. Yoto.” Huh? And while we’re on the subject, if Threepio is Jabba’s translator, why does he translate what others are saying into English rather than Huttese? The precedent is there to employ subtitles, but they’re only rarely used to suggest some iota of realism.

38. INCONSISTENCY WITHIN THE ESTABLISHED UNIVERSE: It can always be argued that the Star Wars universe contains a wide array of peoples and languages. Still, it strikes us as sloppy that codes on Jedi’s computer screens are in alien gobbledygook language, while the tractor beam controls in Wars were in English. And speaking of English, almost all the Imperials in Wars and Empire have an English accent. Jedi doesn’t continue this trend -- unfortunately, because as everyone knows, the British are inherently terrifying.

39. YODA’S DEATH SEQUENCE: Yoda says, “Soon will I rest. Yes, forever sleep.” Less than four minutes later -- bam! He’s a goner. And what does Luke do while his beloved master lies choking and gasping for his final breaths? Well, he just sort of sits there like a doofus and watches him writhe in pain. Not that dialing 911 is an option on Dagobah, but a simple, “Hey, Master -- you okay?” would have been a nice gesture.

40. THE ALLIANCE BRIEFING: In Wars, the briefing before the attack on the Death Star had the feel of a serious military operation. In Jedi, the briefing is a forum for witty repartee, attended by chuckling, smirking buddies and a medical droid who has no business being there other than to fill a vacant seat. It’s no wonder the Rebels got their asses kicked in Empire if this is how their top military leaders conduct themselves when the galaxy is at stake. Eventually, Luke barges in unannounced and the “meeting” breaks up with all the parliamentary procedure of porno night at the Elks Club.

41. PARADOXICAL LESSONS IN THE FORCE: Yoda says the only way Luke can become a Jedi is to face Vader. Minutes later, he says it’s unfortunate that Luke rushes to face Vader. This is in addition to Yoda’s assertion in Empire that if Luke faces Vader, he’ll become an agent of evil. So he needs to face Vader to become a Jedi, but he can’t face Vader or else he’ll become a slave to the dark side. This is a paradox on a par with the one Kirk used to confuse and blow up Nomad.

42. VADER’S NOT-SO-SPECIAL SHUTTLE: When we first saw Vader’s shuttle with its clean lines and sleek, triwing design, it seemed a fitting vessel to transport a leader of his stature. But later we find out that apparently every Imperial shuttle -- even the ones that transport supplies to work sites -- looks just like Vader’s. One explanation: after Vader damaged that fancy bent-wing TIE fighter they gave him in Wars, he lost his special-ship privileges. The more likely explanation: someone at Lucasfilm was too lazy or cheap just to design and build a model for a different style of shuttlecraft.

43. SLOPPY CONTINUITY ERRORS: In quick cuts between two different views of a character, it’s a good bet that his or her exp​ression and/or stance will be jarringly inconsistent. Check out Bib Fortuna in the scene where Jabba refers to the newly defrosted Solo as bantha fodder. Our favorite slip, however, is the star field behind the Emperor’s throne, which in every shot consists of the same group of stars crawling slowly toward the left of the screen.

44. THAT SCENE WITH THE EWOK ON THE SPEEDER BIKE: This scene doesn’t really exemplify any of the larger points in this article, but we hate it so much that we couldn’t just ignore it. If Jedi weren’t so darned cutesy, that Ewok would have been splattered into tree pizza and we’d have been a lot happier. Have we mentioned we hate Ewoks?

45. GENERALLY DUMB DIALOGUE: Vader, upon seeing that Luke has constructed a lightsaber: “Your skills are complete. Indeed, you are powerful, as the Emperor has foreseen.” (Wait a second -- all because he read a Time/Life book on electronics and soldered together some transistors? Does this mean Tim Allen is a Jedi?) Yoda, near death, to Luke: “Remember: a Jedi’s strength flows from the Force.” (That’s more of a first-day lesson, isn’t it, Yoda? Something tells us that Luke had that particular bit of wisdom written on a Post-it note and stuck to his W-Wing cockpit long ago.)

46. ADMIRAL ACKBAR: Sure, Admiral Ackbar looks neat, but he’s quite the wishy-washy leader, judging from how Lando continually questions, ignores, and overrides his orders. Dumbest of all (though never actually mentioned in the film), Admiral Ackbar’s fishlike race is called the Mon Calamari. Ha, ha, ha! (The joke isn’t quite so funny when you realize that there are more fish people in Jedi than there are black people or female people.)

47. DUMB RESOLUTION OF PROBLEMS: The most pathetic example of facile problem solving is the “secret back door” on the shield generator base, which means our team won’t have to be bothered with devising an interesting way to break in. Luckily for them, the base is apparently staffed by the one garrison in the Empire commanded by Colonel Klink.

48. ARTOO: Of all the main characters, Artoo is the only one who isn’t handled in a totally embarrassing fashion, but there are still some inconsistencies in the presentation of his personality. He’s supposed to be the brave, assured one to Threepio’s sissy-boy, but in a couple of scenes he whimsically shakes and shivers with fear like Scooby-Doo. Is he into this whole Rebellion thing or not?

49. THE WIZARD OF OZ HOMAGE AT JABBA’S FRONT DOOR: Anyone who’s ever seen MGM’s seminal musical fantasy experiences more than a little déjà vu when Threepio knocks on Jabba’s door and asks the whimsical attendant to admit him to the Emerald City -- er, rusty palace. Had there been a precedent of scene-specific homage in Wars or Empire, we might have been more forgiving on this point, but the scene as presented in jedi sticks out and degrades the overall integrity of the mythos established in the first two films. (Sure, Wars mimicked Kurosawa’s The Hidden Fortress almost scene for scene, but only socially maladapted film geeks noticed that.)

50. THE SARLACC PIT AS FREUD’S VAGINA DENTATA: Come on, like it never occurred to you. Actually, what I was giggling about in 1983 (I was 17 at the time) was the asshole in the desert looked like it had hemorrhoids. My buddy just about wet himself when it belched when Boba Fett was swallowed up by it, talking about the stainless steel suppository.

10 Reasons Why Jedi Doesn’t Totally Suck
1. LUKE’S GANGPLANK WALK: The suspense leading up to Luke’s jump-off and bounce-back on the skiff still gets us biting our nails, and the first seven or eight seconds of the ensuing battle are actually pretty exciting. Too bad the rest of the melee deteriorates into slapstick.

2. THE EMPEROR’S ARRIVAL AT THE DEATH STAR: One of the best examples of the power and importance of the Emperor is the hundreds of TIE fighters ceremoniously swarming like bees around the docking bay that receives him. The following interior shot is backed by the trilogy’s loudest, scariest, and best use of the “Imperial March” theme.

3. THE SPEEDER BIKE CHASE: The only time the forests of Endor don’t look boring is during the speeder bike chase -- primarily because most of us have never seen trees zipping by our heads at 200 mph.

4. THE EMPEROR: It was wise to cast human Ian McDiarmid, and not another damn Muppet, as the Emperor. He exudes pure, seductive evil, and the scenes with him are the best in the film. A couple are even among the best in the trilogy.

5. WEDGE’S PROMOTION: Wedge Antilles would have been number one on our list of side characters, but he appears in all three films, so we consider him one of the main bunch. In Jedi he’s deservedly been promoted to Red Leader and gets to fire the decisive shot that leads to the second Death Star’s explosion. Good shooting, Wedge!

6. THE AT-STS: The scout walkers may blow up too easily and resemble rampaging chickens, but they’re still wonderfully designed and are animated inside a complex environment more or less flawlessly. If only they’d stepped on a few more Ewoks (Have we mentioned we hate Ewoks?).

7. THE FINAL SPACE BATTLE: No space combat before or since has taken such consistent advantage of all three axes of movement. The scenes are exceptionally well choreographed, and it’s always clear what’s going on -- compare Jedi’s battle to the confusing mess of planes and spaceships that zip around aimlessly in the final scenes of ID4.

8. OUTRUNNING THE DEATH STAR EXPLOSION: Setting aside the fact that Lando really should have died, the Falcon outrunning the explosive wave is always impressive. Nowadays, every action film made seems to have a shot like this. Problem is, movies like The Long Kiss Goodnight expect us to believe that not only spaceships but people on foot can outrun explosions. Yeah, right.

9. THE AT-AT ON ENDOR: Seeing an AT-AT emerge from the forests of Endor at night adds a welcome dark and moody touch to the film. When it delivers Luke to Vader, Jedi almost feels like Empire for a few wonderful seconds.

10. VADER’S SKELETON: If you have a laser disc player or a good enough videotape, you can pause and see Vader’s insides lit up by lightning as he hoists the Emperor above his head. Someone at Lucasfilm took the time to make those fleeting shots count, designing a skeleton for the Dark Lord that is mostly human but partially bionic. Little things do, indeed, mean a lot.
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#33 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 08:01 AM

Yeah, I read this article when it was first printed back in the early 90's. I really feel bad for Gould and Vebber because they really got raked over the coals for this when they were just being honest, and they really not only echoed what I was thinking about ROTJ at that time, but it also opened my eyes to other problems with ROTJ.

What's amazing is that they PREDICTED that the next Star Wars film would have fart jokes and stepping shit!! How prophetic! I really would love to see a Gould and Vebber list lambasting the PT, but I think they were severely burned on this one. The wrote it at a time when ROTJ was still defended as a great SW.
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#34 User is offline   georgelucas4greedo Icon

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 08:32 AM

I watched ROTJ completely this weekend and I have to say as bad as it is, it is still a pretty good movie. Its way better than the prequels and if that space battle doesnt take your breath away, nothing will.

The thing I like about the OOT is the feel that you are watching three different movies that remain integral parts of an over-arching story. I'm sorry to all the LOTR fans out there, but the major problem I had with that triology was the feel that I was watching the same movie for 9 hours. Not so for SW OOT.

The same can be said of the PT, the three different movies feel, but it was done so horribly that none of the films are entertaining in themselves. There is no value in the PT.

Jedi was a mediocre close to a timeless story.
It seems like everyone is over the nitpicking. Too bad.
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#35 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 09:15 PM

At least LOTR was an entertaining series.

And of course it was based on three wonderful books which were grafted into the three films presented. That's where the element of suspense went.

Suspense where the PT was concerned was the collective, hopeful longing that they would get it right next time.
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#36 User is offline   Casual Fan Icon

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 09:27 PM

You may have to revoke my geek license, but I have never had much of a problem with Return of the Jedi other than the Ewoks not being fierce enough. The other problems are pretty minor and more of an issue of tone or style than anything else.

On building the second Death Star, why not? After all, the first Death Star came minutes away from completely destroying the rebellion, and was an unbeatable terror weapon for "keeping the systems in line", which was the empire's main interest. If no planet will aid the rebellion for fear of being blown to bits, then the rebellion will die out. And the flaw in the first Death Star was pretty easy to fix.

The plan for using the second Death Star as bait to get the rebel fleet to show up was probably unnecessarily risky, but again it almost worked. The only problem was that the Ewoks were discounted. Again, if the Ewoks were more fierce, and even started out working for the empire, than this is a believable flaw.

Going back to LOTR, why does everyone have a problem with the Ewoks but will accept the Ents destroying Isengard? The answer is pretty obviously. Imagine if Lucas had stolen from Tolkein (after all, he stole all the time from Asimov), and put ent-like creatures on Endor. I don't think anyone woudl be complaining about the Sarlaac burping or alien languages if he did that.
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#37 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 01:50 PM

I wouldn't have a problem with the Ewoks, if like you said, were a little fiercer. Seeing them bumbling around in those woods and falling over every minute or two makes me lose my suspension of disbelief because I know it's a bunch of midgets and dwarfs who are uncoordinated in the first place, but then you add on 10 lbs. of fur and headgear (and lack of peripheral vision). It's really hard to buy them. A little easier to buy them than the Roger Rabbit Gungans, though....

I don't like the DS2 because it smacks of MAJOR LEAGUE lazy writing. Lucas couldn't be bothered to come up with a scenario where the rebels invade Coruscant (ne Had Abbadon)---well, he DID, he just went the cheap route rather than giving us fans a film that would've blown us out of the water!! He could've had the ultimate Star Wars film, but he really wussed out in many respects. Again, don't get me wrong. I prefer ROTJ over the PT travesty. I just feel its weaker than the previous two films.
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#38 User is offline   mireaux7 Icon

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 10:40 PM

We all know Lucas made many changes to the OT. Lucas wasnt happy with some of the video, but also wasnt happy with some of the music and audio sequences as well.

take into consideration Return of the Jedi. Here, Lucas boldly expressed his dissatisfaction not only with the original musical score in Jabba's Palace, but also at the end during the celebration in the ewok village on endor commencing the destruction of the death star.Lucas decided to replace the music for both scenes.

if Lucas wanted to fit the celebration scene in the ewok village more appropriately, he should have set the music to the tune of Men in Hats:"Safety Dance". I cant think of a better song that fits this scene the way the ewoks are nimbly parading about.


Ewoks dancing alongside C3PO in the village as Leia, Luke, Han, Chewie and Lando look on with amusement..........

" we can dance if we want to, we can leave your friends behind
Cause your friends don't dance and if they don't dance
Well they're no friends of mine
I say, we can go where we want to, A place where they will never find
And we can act like we come from out of this world
Leave the real one far behind,
and we can dance or sing"

we can go when we want to the night is young and so am I
And we can dress real neat from our hats to our feet
and surprise 'em with the victory cry

Say we can act if want to if we don't nobody will
And you can act real rude and totally removed
And i can act like an imbecile

say we can dance, we can dance everything out control
We can dance, we can dance we're doing it in multiple
We can dance, we can dance everybody look at your hands
We can dance, we can dance everybody takin' the chance

We can dance if we want to, we've got all your life and mine
As long as we abuse it, never gonna lose it
Everything'll work out right
I say, we can dance if we want to we can leave your friends behind
Cause your friends don't dance and if they don't dance
Well they're are no friends of mine
I say we can dance, we can dance everything out of control
We can dance, we can dance we're doing it wall to wall
We can dance, we can dance everybody look at your hands
We can dance, we can dance everybody's takin' the chance
Oh Well the safety dance
ah yes the safety dance."

(you may think Im crazy, until you play the song and watch this scene simoultaneously,.then youll see how much they really match up)

yell.gif
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#39 User is offline   dark_vyce Icon

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 01:21 AM

I'd have to agree with a lot of their points, and the ones you guys make.

Although one of the things I would change, would be replacing the scene in the beginning with the Imperial fleet showing up at the DS2, with the Executor mostly in focus, instead of the star destroyer. It would feel less recycled that way from using the idea from ANH.

I also belevie everyone that Boba Fett was 'cool' for all the wrong reasons. I'm also sick of hearing all this bull George Lucas keeps coming up with to cover his tracks.

Hah, those would be a tad amusing, I would prefer the Ewoks to be a little more.. battle hardered... while I can see some of their tactics would work (like the avalance of rocks tripping the AT ST, or the two heavy tree trunks smashing the walker's head in.), but the rest of it is so damn stupid. I'm one of those guys who hate the ewoks, cute things toppling an Imperial Army drives me up the wall. Which is one of my joys in Star Wars Battlefront and the Empire at war expansion. You can kill the stupid furry animals, one way or another...

I could go on all day if I chose to...

This post has been edited by dark_vyce: 04 February 2007 - 01:22 AM

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#40 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 10:02 AM

QUOTE (dark_vyce @ Feb 4 2007, 02:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
to cover his tracks.


Skidmarks...

QUOTE (dark_vyce @ Feb 4 2007, 02:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I could go on all day if I chose to...


True. smile.gif And I could watch ROTJ without fast-forwarding if I chose to.
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#41 User is offline   Prequel dialogue coach Icon

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 03:02 PM

the more i think about it, the more ROTJ sucked. the space battle and appearance of the old characters is the only think good about it.
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#42 User is offline   Infernus Icon

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 03:27 PM

Great ideas, only thing I have to add is I would have enjoyed more inmformation in the film itself on Anakin's descent into Vader, either by Old Ben or the dying Yoda telling Luke about it, or the Emperor gloating when trying to anger Luke.
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