[Deepsycher]

Well the torture seemed nice to the prison workers who were smiling in the photos until the developing stages to their prison sentence. Some officers claimed that they were under orders but now most were put under newer orders to be stripped of their command and be put into a cell. I question, are they getting the same treatment?

This post has been edited by Deepsycher: 13 June 2006 - 06:46 AM

[Sailor Abbey]

If you think POWs are suppose to be having a shitty time, obviously you never heard of how well the German WWII POWs were treated here.

Actually I have, and that is pretty cool. But they went above and beyond what was necessary.

I know this is wholly incomprehsible to you, but is it possible that America could be wrong and that the people fighting this global empire might not be evil and inhuman?

Hmmm... lets see... were fighting people who hate everything about us and want to kill us... hmmmm....

The first reason is that torture really hurts, but you don't care that you're hurting other people, do you Joey?

Aw, that’s so sad. I'm sure putting underwear on somebody’s head is an excruciatingly painful experience, but you'll excuse me if I reserve my pity for somebody who isn’t a terrorist.



I think the problem here is ones definition of torture. Hanging somebody by their toes and smacking em around to get some information doesn’t qualify. Twisting peoples limbs out of their sockets, cutting off body parts, and tossing your pals into tree mulchers while you watch does.

I just don’t see what the big goddamn deal is. I beat the crap out of my brothers all the time to get em to tell me stuff.

And what's worse is that it gives your enemies all the more reason to fight you by proving that you're a souless infidel, Joey.

They’re going to hate us regardless of what we do, because were rich and powerful and theyre jealous, we might as well get some something out of the deal. You know, people say torture doesn’t work, but you don’t know what kind of information is being divulged by people on the inside of al qaeda because of it. All you see are some pictures and automatically assume that were just hurting people because we like it. You don’t know how many lives have been saved, or how much valid authentic information were getting.

Not only will this hasten victory against the infidels, but it will ensure that when American soldiers are captured by enemy sopldiers, they will be treated especially well. The prisoner exchanges of WWI and WWII were for faggots. We should not have any prisoners left to trade, but we can sell them back their captured dead as dog food, soap, and lamp shades.

What, you think just because the Germans treated their POWs like human beings that Al Qaeda would do the same? Not bloody likely. These are the same people who have no problem rigging a car to blow up innocent civilians on the street. How come you don’t here JM and Dr. Lecter complaining about the inhumane treatment of the terrorists own countrymen?

Maybe you should not be so quick to disagree with a person just becouse you dont like them.

And I'm a pretty fucking likeable person too.

[Cobnat]

Well the torture seemed nice to the prison workers who were smiling in the photos until the developing stages to their prison sentence. Some officers claimed that they were under orders but now most were put under newer orders to be stripped of their command and be put into a cell. I question, are they getting the same treatment?

Tell me Dee... have you ever heard of the Mai Lai Massacre?

http://en.wikipedia....ai_Lai_Massacre

William Calley was convicted in 1971 of premeditated murder in ordering the shootings and initially sentenced to life in prison; two days later, however, President Richard Nixon ordered him released from prison, pending appeal of his sentence.

My point is that even though Calley massacred 500 people, old men, women and childgren, he didnt even serve in prison. I doubt that men who torture a few people and which dont have any evidence against them other then few general testamonies, will get bad treatment.

[Gobbler]

You don’t know how many lives have been saved, or how much valid authentic information were getting.

But you do? It all sounds like a could/could not be situation to me and since none of us can really tell, I'd have to stick to in dubio pro reo.

[Dr Lecter]

I think SA would have loved these guys: http://en.wikipedia..../Black_and_tans

I bet you wish we could send them out into the middle east to do as they wished... For any of you that haven't heard of them, they were most despicable excuses for soldiers in the history of modern warfare. They make the Nazi actions in France and Poland look almost merciful. One British soldier was killed in Ireland, can you guess what the Black and Tans did? That's right, they looted and burnt an entire village to the ground, killing innocent bystanders as they went along.

When Michael Collins ordered his men to kill a couple of British spies, can you guess what the Black and Tans did? That's right, they drove into a sports field surrounded by around 15,000 spectators bystanders and shot into the crowd. But this wasn't enough for the Black and Tans, they had a machine gun covering the entrance to kill people as they ran.

Can you imagine them in Iraq now? Would there even be an Iraqis left? I'm sure if it wasn't for the media, they would be doing this on a daily basis in Iraq. Maybe they are and just making sure the media don't hear of it.

This post has been edited by Dr Lecter: 13 June 2006 - 10:15 AM

[Cobnat]

I think SA would have loved these guys:

Who the hell is SA?

I bet you wish we could send them out into the middle east to do as they wished... For any of you that haven't heard of them, they were most despicable excuses for soldiers in the history of modern warfare. They make the Nazi actions in France and Poland look almost merciful. One British soldier was killed in Ireland, can you guess what the Black and Tans did? That's right, they looted and burnt an entire village to the ground, killing innocent bystanders as they went along.

Damn... just damn... killing your own people like is just... beyond words...

When Michael Collins ordered his men to kill a couple of British spies, can you guess what the Black and Tans did? That's right, they drove into a sports field surrounded by around 15,000 spectators bystanders and shot into the crowd. But this wasn't enough for the Black and Tans, they had a machine gun covering the entrance to kill people as they ran.

How nice...

[Deepsycher]

Tell me Dee... have you ever heard of the Mai Lai Massacre?

http://en.wikipedia....ai_Lai_Massacre
My point is that even though Calley massacred 500 people, old men, women and childgren, he didnt even serve in prison. I doubt that men who torture a few people and which dont have any evidence against them other then few general testamonies, will get bad treatment.

Not until now. I read it, that seems to me like an act of terrorism. I don't understand why America is involved through the information I see. I heard before that they oppose communism and started wars in smaller countries because of that.

Guantanmo Bay is starting to sound like an excuse for unnecessary torture (I agree the real terrorist may deserve it but not for the existing prisoners who are not terrorists.) Also hearing about the secret planes from England that carry suspects when the real terrorists are being politically kept in a soft cell or pretty much natively running out on the streets. To rule in, they could be the source of importing unusual long shaped knives to groups in an attempt to focus the attention away from them.

[Cobnat]

Not until now. I read it, that seems to me like an act of terrorism. I don't understand why America is involved through the information I see. I heard before that they oppose communism and started wars in smaller countries because of that.

I understand, not many people know of the massacre, its a tragic event that is forgotten in history, a memory many people want to forget but shouldnt... that massacre was commited by soldiers (some) who fought in Vietnam for 5 or more years, constantly seeing thier friends being blown up or falling to traps, all of the Soldiers serving in Vietnam developed Shell Shock. It didnt stop there ofcourse, many Soldiers in the first Gulf War developed Gulf War Syndrome, and even now hundreds of soldiers in Iraq are developing Shell Shock... What happened to the Soldiers who got Shell Shock? The lucky ones lives normal lives with a only a few hundred nightmares a month, while other went crazy and ended up in insane asylums or shotup the local tavern... the cycle never stops, never.

Guantanmo Bay is starting to sound like an excuse for unnecessary torture (I agree the real terrorist may deserve it but not for the existing prisoners who are not terrorists.) Also hearing about the secret planes from England that carry suspects when the real terrorists are being politically kept in a soft cell or pretty much natively running out on the streets. To rule in, they could be the source of importing unusual long shaped knives to groups in an attempt to focus the attention away from them.

The fact is that the United States is the sole superpower in the world, it can do whatever it wants, its been like that since 1985, many atrocities were commited by Bush Senior and Clinton but were covered up or made to look good, nowdays the only thing people can do is throw empty accusations at the US goverment becouse of this legacy, no matter what happens, the US will win, even if it loses. The tragic legacy and its ordinary people and ordinary soldiers that suffer, the guards at Guantanamo Bay are prisoners too. Although Im not exusing thier behaver, they too suffer under the system.

[Deepsycher]

I understand, not many people know of the massacre, its a tragic event that is forgotten in history, a memory many people want to forget but shouldnt... that massacre was commited by soldiers (some) who fought in Vietnam for 5 or more years, constantly seeing thier friends being blown up or falling to traps, all of the Soldiers serving in Vietnam developed Shell Shock. It didnt stop there ofcourse, many Soldiers in the first Gulf War developed Gulf War Syndrome, and even now hundreds of soldiers in Iraq are developing Shell Shock... What happened to the Soldiers who got Shell Shock? The lucky ones lives normal lives with a only a few hundred nightmares a month, while other went crazy and ended up in insane asylums or shotup the local tavern... the cycle never stops, never.

So the soldiers who murdered the innocent people might have gone insane after seeing their friends blown up. Did they went there for the interest in it or by someone else's word? I think that is a misuse of resources to send out soldiers to win a political battle by starting a war. It is not even their country.

How about China then:
(1) Was the population too big to fight?
(2) Is it because the English enforced the sales of drugs there to start with and made changes that are in favour of America?

The fact is that the United States is the sole superpower in the world, it can do whatever it wants, its been like that since 1985, many atrocities were commited by Bush Senior and Clinton but were covered up or made to look good, nowdays the only thing people can do is throw empty accusations at the US goverment becouse of this legacy, no matter what happens, the US will win, even if it loses. The tragic legacy and its ordinary people and ordinary soldiers that suffer, the guards at Guantanamo Bay are prisoners too. Although Im not exusing thier behaver, they too suffer under the system.

It seems that they do have a share of that super power in Manufacturing. Do you think that China might soon start a war with America?

Considering recently to what I read, companies are now using China to make their products whilst the design works are done somewhere else to improve the quality. The problem I see is that it is sending a message that it is okay to deal with manufacturing from countries who abuse their own workers to it. As a result as before the workers may not feel committed to the jobs and mistakes in the design are likely to happen noted by the impact on the quality.

If they get this one right then the companies are in on it for cheap labor unless they also consider that human rights are required for the job.

This post has been edited by Deepsycher: 13 June 2006 - 01:08 PM

[J m HofMarN]

Gobbler- Thank ye.

Hmmm... lets see... were fighting people who hate everything about us and want to kill us... hmmmm....

Oh dear! You mean the people we're in a war against don't like us and want to kill us? CLEARLY this is a completely new situation and none of the rules of engagement written previously can possibly apply. IMAGINE! Enemies that don't like us! How fiendish!

Aw, that’s so sad. I'm sure putting underwear on somebody’s head is an excruciatingly painful experience, but you'll excuse me if I reserve my pity for somebody who isn’t a terrorist.

You're severely whitewashing what the US does. 20 people that they'll admit to (not counting those killed secretly) have died in US custody from beating or other forms of torture. And how many do you think they've killed in places where no one can even investigate?

I think the problem here is ones definition of torture. Hanging somebody by their toes and smacking em around to get some information doesn’t qualify.

So just what will be theMinistry of Love approved Newspeak term for it?

I just don’t see what the big goddamn deal is. I beat the crap out of my brothers all the time to get em to tell me stuff.

And your brothers probably flicked buggars at you. I suppose that means biological warfare is ok?

They’re going to hate us regardless of what we do, because were rich and powerful and theyre jealous, we might as well get some something out of the deal.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HEHEHEHEHE

Ok I'm alright now

hehehehehe

That statement is inherently nonsensical. Why would people drive planes into buildings because they wanted to wear cool sneakers like us? If they wanted our money they'd be out robbing banks, not comitting suicide missions to try to stop us.

Shit, I might be jealous of your tits, but if I was I'd go to a plastic surgeon, not shove an M80 up my ass and stand on your lawn. It dosn't make logical sense at all.

I suppose slaves only wanted their freedom because they were jealous of their rich masters?

Fuck no. There is a fundamental human desire for freedom and self determination. The US is dominating the middle east and people fight them because they want their freedom back. A man will give his life for his freedom gladly, as oh, 200000 Iraqis already have. But why don't you ask your greedy scumbag piece of human feces president whether he'd be willing to die for his oil, or to bring Haliburton's stock up? No way. Bush is in this for profit. The rebels, they're the ones who actually believe in something and that's why they'll win.

You don’t know how many lives have been saved, or how much valid authentic information were getting.

Also, the next person I see could be the wicked witch of the west. The only way to be sure is to douse everyone I meet with water. Some people might think it's going too far, but I have a right to protect me and my little dog too!

What, you think just because the Germans treated their POWs like human beings that Al Qaeda would do the same?

Bin Laden's Qaida organization treats POWs better than the US. Hands down. If you get captured by Al Qaida you can expect a quick execution. That's a better guarantee than what the US offers.

Al Qaida in Iraq however is a different story and they have apparently beaten captives before but nowhere near as frequently or systematicly as the US. Hopefully with Zarqawi out of the picture their methods will improve and they'll stop torturing captives and blowing up people based on their ethnic background.

How come you don’t here JM and Dr. Lecter complaining about the inhumane treatment of the terrorists own countrymen?

You're using the car bombings in Iraq to justify the torture of prisoners taken from Afghanistan before the aggression against Iraq even began. Odds are the prisoners being tortured in Guantanamo and Eastern Europe don't even know Iraq is going on. Yes what's happening in Iraq is bad, but it's only occuring because Bush decided to start a war of opportunity and kill some people to glut his thirst for Muslim blood.

[Cobnat]

So the soldiers who murdered the innocent people might have gone insane after seeing their friends blown up. Did they went there for the interest in it or by someone else's word? I think that is a misuse of resources to send out soldiers to win a political battle by starting a war. It is not even their country.

I agree with you, those soldiers went insane becouse they fought in a war they shouldnt have even in.

How about China then:
(1) Was the population too big to fight?
(2) Is it because the English enforced the sales of drugs there to start with and made changes that are in favour of America?
It seems that they do have a share of that super power in Manufacturing. Do you think that China might soon start a war with America?

Wether China fights against America really doesnt matter, wether China has does matter, one main reason is becouse Chinas Man to Woman (3:2) ratio is uneven and this means that China will either start eating itself becouse they're wont be enough woman to go around or China will go to war and kill off the exess men. So soon Chinese soldiers will get Shell Shock and the cycle starts.

Considering recently to what I read, companies are now using China to make their products whilst the design works are done somewhere else to improve the quality. The problem I see is that it is sending a message that it is okay to deal with manufacturing from countries who abuse their own workers to it. As a result as before the workers may not feel committed to the jobs and mistakes in the design are likely to happen noted by the impact on the quality.

In China everyone is commited to thier jobs, one reason is becouse it is its life source, thier is no unemployment benefits in China, so the people are completly commited, although that doesnt mean that they are good at thier jobs.

As for the human rights... every war the US and its Allies have fought has never ever been about human rights abuse, ever. China has commited horrible atrocities in Tibet and against thier own people, yet the Americans dont batter an eye lid, ofcourse they shouldnt becouse China is incredibly intimatating and the only country who has a chance to kick the US's ass in a war. And before anyone says something stupid like "AMERICA WILL USE NUKES OMG LMAO!!! LOL", America will NOT use nukes becouse not even Americans are dumb enough to use nukes in this day an age.

If they get this one right then the companies are in on it for cheap labor unless they also consider that human rights are required for the job.

Aye and now they have Iraqis as a cheep labor force too.

[Slade]

I haven't had time to peruse this thread, so I'll probably be being redundant, but I'd like to say that I don't support the death penality in any circumstance, and in your second post, Abbey, you show an utter lack of morality. Because you think "they probably deserved it" doesn't mean that it's ok to torture people, regardless of what they've done. Justice isn't vengence, its repaying a debt to society for violating existing social structures (ideally) put in place to protect people from harm and foul. We're talking about human beings. Your "everybody else does it too!" argument is just as silly. There's no ethical backing to the strength of numbers.

[Deepsycher]

Wether China fights against America really doesnt matter, wether China has does matter, one main reason is becouse Chinas Man to Woman (3:2) ratio is uneven and this means that China will either start eating itself becouse they're wont be enough woman to go around or China will go to war and kill off the exess men. So soon Chinese soldiers will get Shell Shock and the cycle starts.
In China everyone is commited to thier jobs, one reason is becouse it is its life source, thier is no unemployment benefits in China, so the people are completly commited, although that doesnt mean that they are good at thier jobs.

Okay I forgot to consider that but it make sense as I read that people who are unsuccessful there are encouraged to commit suicide by their families even for not getting a place at the institute or job they wanted despite passing the requirements. I have never seen it happen so it seems a bit unreal to me.

As for the human rights... every war the US and its Allies have fought has never ever been about human rights abuse, ever. China has commited horrible atrocities in Tibet and against thier own people, yet the Americans dont batter an eye lid, ofcourse they shouldnt becouse China is incredibly intimatating and the only country who has a chance to kick the US's ass in a war. And before anyone says something stupid like "AMERICA WILL USE NUKES OMG LMAO!!! LOL", America will NOT use nukes becouse not even Americans are dumb enough to use nukes in this day an age.
Aye and now they have Iraqis as a cheep labor force too.

Just thought of: So China makes money out of their people by putting them to extensive work (not for all people) because of their approach and the population growth in manufacturing. In America they seem to make profit behind people's backs in advertising, they seem good at that.

[Cobnat]

Okay I forgot to consider that but it make sense as I read that people who are unsuccessful there are encouraged to commit suicide by their families even for not getting a place at the institute or job they wanted despite passing the requirements. I have never seen it happen so it seems a bit unreal to me.

Yes, a threat to a persons family, whatever the threat may be, drives a person to do desperate things.

Just thought of: So China makes money out of their people by putting them to extensive work (not for all people) because of their approach and the population growth in manufacturing. In America they seem to make profit behind people's backs in advertising, they seem good at that.

Both are good systems, but to run requires for the populance to be stupid, although those system work great in China and America, soon the people will open thier eyes, one can only hope it wont be too late.

(spellckeck)

This post has been edited by Cobnat: 14 June 2006 - 06:21 PM

[civilian_number_two]

@hoffy- So then if you disagree with me and Abbey, you agree that people who are planning another 9/11 or London Bombings should go free? Maybe you should not be so quick to disagree with a person just because you dont like them.

Cobnat, what you present is the fallacy of the false dichotomy. You suggest that there are exactly two ways to deal with terrorists, torture and freedom. Hoffmarn was actually suggesting that there might be other options. I would like to suggest that no one in Iraq was planning "the next 9/11." Iraq was not at war with the US until the US invaded. Iraq was not behind 9/11. Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction. I can't say anything about the London bombings, because I don't know who ordered them, but if Iraqis ordered them it is irrelevant since an English-supported US invasion had already taken place. After 9/11 (as before) the US saw fit to bomb and invade all over the Middle East on the flimsiest grounds. The US is actually the culprit of "the next 9/11;" The next 9/11 was the Invasion of Afghanistan on the pretext of capturing Emmanuel Goldstein (Osama bin Laden to you).

Abbey, Iraq is not fighting against the US because the US is wealthy and the Iraqis are jealous. Iraqis are fighting against the US because the US invaded Iraq and destroyed its government. Now numerous organizations are trying to convince the soldiers to leave because they want to be the new government. They don't care about American TV and wealth. Iraqis at the top of the food chain are the only folks there capable of starting a war or of planting themselves in office. These are some of the wealthiest men on Earth, up there with the folks at Halliburton who are profiting from the American invasion. So it's not a war about poor people envying the rich Americans. If you want to see how a government makes good on envy of foreign wealth, look to the numerous Nigerian banking scams. Nigerians are profiting from American greed; they are not crashing planes into buildings because they wish that had money or freedom (neither did any Iraqis, by the way). The notion that this is an ideological war, based on religion or freedom or any other false ideal, and that the American way of life is endangered, is utterly ridiculous. Seems you could stand to reread 1984 or at least use your own mind when reading the news, rather than accepting a silly notion like "jealousy" just because the dumbest leader in the history of the US says so on tv. If jealousy were the reason men and children were willing to commit suicide, it would be the first time in history such a war of petty spite had ever occurred. It is my belief that this is impossible. There are no new things in history. If that was a reason to start a war or to commit terrorist suicide, it would have happened before.

Hoff, wanting to win, needing to win, is no longer enough. American military power wielded even incompetently could destroy the entire military power of the Middle East. The image of the future for those people, should the US powers choose it, is a boot stamping down on a human face, forever. The Iraqis are screwed. The only power that can end their suffering is the US government.

Finally, back on topic, I don't care if Iraqis torture or execute prisoners. That is not a reason that the US should do it. In an extreme example, folks like to say that torture can be justified, like say if the guy you're torturing has information on a nuclear bomb in the middle of New York or something. The treatment of the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay has nothing to do with any of the extreme examples so frequently used to defend it. Americans are fighting a war on the pretext that they believe in the liberation of the Iraqi people from bad government, that they believe that individual liberty is supreme over all other ideals. Along the way their soldiers are torturing and humiliating prisoners for kicks and taking photos that they can leak to the news to scare the enemy into surrendering and to cow the rest of the world into submission, to say "we don't care what we do, because you can't stop us." The US military and current government has proven it doesn't give a shit about freedom or the Iraqi people. Burning the Koran in front of these soldiers is as bad as asking them to convert to Christianity for their freedom. Treating German and Japanese prisoners of war well was not overdoing it; it was showing the people there that the intention of the invading army was to supplant the government and to prepare for a future alliance of trade with the future government and businesses. The US has done this with both those countries. Torture and abuse of Iraqi soldiers is a clear message that the US has no intention of trading fairly or of allying with any Democratic Iraqi power. The invasion of Iraq has only one goal: to enslave or eradicate the Iraqi people.

Lecter, the analogy to the treatment of the Irish under British rule is bang on. The British soldiers didn't care about the freedom of the Irish people, or about establishing good government. They only wanted British rule to be easy and unchallenged. They didn't care who the killed or how many, and they did as much as they thought they could get away with without hurting business. That is exactly how the US is behaving right now in the Middle East, and just like it did in Ireland, the behaviour is encouraging terrorism and resistance, not discouraging it as the powers that be claim is their hope.