[Spoon Poetic]

Um… isn't that exactly what you are, a freak who feels rejected by society or is rebelling against mainstream religion by turning to some whacked out hippie new age worship of rocks and trees?

My Stupid Religion? Abbey's the one with the Supid Religion.

Please stop being a jerk. You insist that everyone else stop saying that things you believe don't make sense to them, and then you blatantly insult someone personally, outright saying the things they believe are wrong. And without solid evidence. So far, for the most part, everyone else has just speculated, stated what they believed, and why they don't believe what they don't believe, without trying to be directly insulting. Your being a hypocrite, and a mean one at that, is just helping all the people who claim Christians to be mean hypocrites be right.
Also, this is not the time nor place to try to convert people; and even if it were, you're definitely going about it the wrong way. If I want to convince you that you should vote for Fred Blitneltski, I'm certainly not going to start by saying, "You're a freak, and a stupid one at that." Also, with threats like your breaking of the sheep's legs. (Side note: You're attributing this violence with Jesus? That doesn't sound very Christian to me.)

Please, state your beliefs. Argue for them - provide reasons why you think it's right and others are wrong, sure. Even if they're personal reasons that can't be backed up with scientific proof, they're welcome (though they'll be argued against, but this is afterall a DEBATE thread, so don't complain when it happens). But don't be a jerk - people will just take you even less seriously.

(Also, Gobbler, gotta ask you to not throw insults, too, even if in response to something else someone said - it's only fair, and besides, insults beget more insults...)

On another note - I know a lot of "pagans." I'd say there's maybe a ratio of 1:20 that I'd consider genuine. Maybe even a worse ratio. But it doesn't seem to be attributed to role-playing games that I've seen as much as just people want to be different/special/scary. It's especially prevalent among the poseur punks and goths. And some lesbians I know "converted" just because they like the idea of having a female goddess instead of a male god. Empowering or something... It just doesn't seem genuine to me 99% of the time. Just another way to put themselves in the spotlight (it works especially well here in the Bible Belt). 'Tis a shame.

(P.S. Before you start in on the "You're just another anti-Christian out to get us Godly men," let me inform you that I myself am a Christian, albeit I do practice and believe rather... differently than you.)
(P.P.S. I'm acting kind of mod-ish because with Slade home for the summer and on dialup, he can't get on to peruse this here Debate Club as much as he would like, and so he asked me to help out.)

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 09 June 2006 - 01:07 AM

[Gobbler]

(Also, Gobbler, gotta ask you to not throw insults, too, even if in response to something else someone said - it's only fair, and besides, insults beget more insults...)

Yeah sorry, got carried away back there. 'twasn't really meant as an insult, just an honest evaluation from my point of view. You may try to make it appear all good and what not, but if you just pay attention to what this religion has brought people to do and to accept without giving it a second thought, then it becomes just this: A stupid and illogical system of thought.

You and civillian_number_two did a very good job to explain what I meant with stupid and bullshit, thank you very much for that. I'll try to take that as an example and be more precise about my opinion in the future without getting carried away.

[Sailor Abbey]

I agree that it is a possible explanation, but is it plausible?

More plausible than somebody coming back to life after 72hrs of being dead I would imagine.

[Sailor Abbey]

darth_paul, on Jun 8 2006, 10:16 AM, said:

Um… isn't that exactly what you are, a freak who feels rejected by society or is rebelling against mainstream religion by turning to some whacked out hippie new age worship of rocks and trees?

Not at all. As I mentioned before, I have no real qualms with Catholicism, or even mainstream religion for that matter. The only problem I have (gods I hate repeating myself), is the concept that there is only ONE WAY to do ANYTHING.

Even in math, there are an infinite # of equations that will arrive at a given answer. 1+1=2. So does 4-2, 2x1, ect ect. Why should divinity be any different. The microcosm reflects the macrocosm, and here in our lovely little world, there are multitudes of creatures, colors, beliefs and truths. There is NO ONE WAY to comprehend something. Every human beings brain understands things differently. The idea that every human being that ever was, is or will be, should be able to comprehend and implicate the exact same religious philosophy is regoddamndiculous, and any omnipotent deity who thinks this is possible has obviously forgotten how unique he made each human being. If he wanted them all to be sheep, perhaps he should have had them evolve that way.

darth_paul, on Jun 8 2006, 10:16 AM, said:

Eariler in this tread one of your responses was that you didn't like priests telling you, "Well, you just have to have faith."

Because its a shoddy reason to believe in something. And its the last resort, because in the end, theyve all been brainwashed to believe it too.

darth_paul, on Jun 8 2006, 10:16 AM, said:

Well, that's fine but really as I see it you do have faith, it's just that you've chosen to put it into the wrong things.

How do you know they are wrong, again?

darth_paul, on Jun 8 2006, 12:34 PM, said:

My Stupid Religion? Abbey's the one with the Supid Religion. Everyone's entitled to thier wrong opinion, Gobbler. I just speak the truth, there's no bull shit.

Wow, even I didn’t say Catholicism is stupid. What an awesome Christian you are. Whatever you do, don’t stop talking.

civilian_number_two, on Jun 8 2006, 02:30 PM, said:

Abbey, in another thread I suggested that we didn't have enough evidence to show that pagan people made human sacrifices. To show your erudition, you then cited sources to show that they had.

I’m pretty sure (and I’m not willing to actually go back and check at this time, but I’m pretty sure) that I wasn’t referring to the Celts specifically, but ancient Pagans in general. For me to say that no Pagan ever participated in human sacrifice would be absurd, especially given my lack of witnessing first hand all pagan practices ever for the past 10 or so thousand years.


You believe that pagans sacrificed humans, and you believe that you can prove it. Askig Jordan to prove it is simple contrariness.
[/quote]

Hmm, I cant seem to find where I said this. It could be my lack of caffeine this morning. But yeah, see the above paragraph. Im sure that covers it.

civilian_number_two, on Jun 8 2006, 02:30 PM, said:

They don't go on about "one way" and heresy.

Perhaps the Church does not, but many Catholics still do. I have talked about the Churches recognition of baptism by desire, the idea that if one is not able, for some reason, to receive gods grace and therefore to receive the sacrament of baptism by water, that he or she receives baptism of desire, so long as they are a good person. But the church doesn’t just go spreading that around either. Most Catholics don’t even know about it.

But even with this loophole, the idea is still one must be a catholic - baptized in the catholic church to enter into the kingdom of heaven, even if one is simply baptized by desire. Its still the my god is the only true god theory.

civilian_number_two, on Jun 8 2006, 02:30 PM, said:

This conversation started because the Catholic Church doesn't like the Da Vinci Code. Poor poor Catholic Church, that folks might say things about them. I see it that it is their duty to their stockholders to protect their brand name from infringement. Even in this thread, whgen other beliefs are challenged and questioned, proponents rise to the call and defend their faith (yes I mean you, Abbey). I wouldn't say that questioning this reportedly bad film (haven't see it) and worse book (reviews critique remedial English and limited scholarship) shows that the Church is defensive or sensitive. Responding to irreligious claims that include the name of Catholicism is simply their duty to their constituency. I haven't heard of any threats at excommunication or auto de fe. Any general attacks on Catholics regarding this film are the prejudices of the attackers; they're not based on anything the church itself has said or done.

Actually, this thread was started because I have personally noticed Catholics (not the church) getting pissy about people always knocking the Catholic church, and how I proceed to educate said Catholics as to why there might be some animosity towards the Catholic Church.

[Sailor Abbey]

I'm with Jordan on modern paganism being a load of baloon juice. It's little more than nationalism, really, followed by folks who can trace a blood line to folks who believed the stuff in the old days.

Ancestor worship isn’t confined to blood relations, and in most neo-pagan circles, it is not necessary to have blood ties to the path you choose to follow. For example, lots of people who follow the native American traditions don’t have an ounce of native American blood in their veins. The connections they feel on a spiritual level matter more than their lineage.

I know many people who practice Irish traditions, and the fact they are of Irish decent is the least important factor in their spirituality, if it is a factor at all. In Celtic communities, it is the devotion to the gods that matters, not your bloodlines.

As far as ancestor worship specifically, it does not necessarily refer to only your current physical ancestors. Many times people honor the ancestors of a traditions, or the ancestors of multiple incarnations they believe they have had, as well as human beings in general. It varies considerably from person to person and it not simply confined to nationalism.

[darth_paul]

[b]Peace Be With You…[b]

Wow, even I didn’t say Catholicism is stupid. What an awesome Christian you are. Whatever you do, don’t stop talking.

1. Well, Thanks, that means a lot to me, and I am taking it as a compliment.

2. I wasn't trying to be a jerk and single anyone out or anything, but seriously, what kind of awesome Chistian would I be if I didn't try to convert some of you here, especially you challenging pagans, agnostics, and athiests.

3. I was going to go into another long-ass tirade about why I believe what I believe, but as I got to the end of it I accidentally hit the delete button and LOST IT ALL DAMN YOU SATAN!!!!
Anyway, maybe I can treat you all to that some other day , but for now I'll just use "Plan B" which is the below quote from Civilian No. 2:

The Catholics of late have made much of the passage "in my father's house there are many mansions." It is a belief spread among Catholic missionaries that conversion to Catholicism is not necessary to avoid fire and brimstone. Catholics don't believe that anyone not exposed to Catholicism, say if they live in a part of the world not in contact with a Catholic missionary, will burn in hell for all eternity. This is a general Christian belief, and it fuled the "white man's burden" that was self-appointed by Anglican warlords and eventually American colonials. It is no longer a Catholic belief however. Catholics do try to spread the word of God, and specifically Catholicism, but they talk more of sin and using God to guide you, etc. They don't go on about "one way" and heresy. Catholics see Protestants as separated brethren, no longer as heretics. Catholics haven't accused anyone of heresy in about 200 years. In that case, too, it was really the Inquisition and not the Catholic Church at all. Catholics last accused someone of heresy in the time of Shakespeare (Giordano Bruno, executed in 1600 for a collection of heretical beliefs including Copernicanism and (probably more important) an unlimited universe with innumerable inhabited worlds). Info per wikipedia.

[Just another wretched fan]

To get to the roots of the topic, I'll agree with the statement that Christians get beat up on the most. No one cares if you make fun of Christians, but you have to be PC when it comes to other world religions.

Secondly, I'll agree with the statement that as the worlds largest religion, and the religion of the people who happened to conquer 1/2 of the planet (even though their religion probably told them that's not nice), they become an easy (and possibly deserving) target. I suppose its kinda the same way the NY Yankees get hated on.

Thirdly, I'll state that as a Catholic, sometimes I do feel beat up on, but I understand why.

Fourthly, I'll state that at least, unlike Muslims, Christians didn't riot when their major religious figure was mocked.

Fifth, I really don't understand what Pope John-Paul II did that pisses people off so much. The guy was a Polish national hero and a really smart, peaceful, and holy man. What did he do to deserve such ridicule? "What did he ever do to you?"

And please don't go back to the middle ages or the inquisitions or the crusades or the Bogia Popes, etc. I mean strictly in modern times.

[Otal Nimrodi]

its kinda the same way the NY Yankees get hated on

I'm from Boston, we're still pissed that we traded Babe Ruth.

[Jordan]

Christianity is big, especially in the West. Therefore it's 'ok' to beat up on them. (it's not like they're underdogs)

Paganism is a blend of feminism, new age music, and pricey power crystals- all of which is superimposed on Celtic ritual.

Those are my two biggest points that I'd like to make obvious.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 09 June 2006 - 05:54 PM

[Sailor Abbey]

Paganism is a blend of feminism, new age music, and pricey power crystals- all of which is superimposed on Celtic ritual.

There you go making crazy generalizations again. I think you are referring to Wicca specifically, wherein feminism, new age music, and pricey power crystals are superimposed on a hermetic system. Wicca is new age, there’s no question about it, but not all paganism is Celtic, and much of it doesn’t resemble Wicca at all.

The vast majority of Muslims are not militant fanatics, most Christians don’t think homosexuality deserves the death penalty, and not all Pagans wear medieval clothing, hate men and worship Celtic deities.

You know, I try to at least have a basic understanding of subjects I am debating before I take time out of other peoples days by having them read my posts.

[Slade]

2. I wasn't trying to be a jerk and single anyone out or anything, but seriously, what kind of awesome Chistian would I be if I didn't try to convert some of you here, especially you challenging pagans, agnostics, and athiests.

You'd be a tolerant one.

I'd love to come in here and yell at people for petty insults, but the Spoon did a wonderful job of taking care of it. In regards to modding, I'm working 8-5 for the summer, and I kinda just flop at the end of the day, which makes Internet usage limited, especially being on dialup, but I'll still be around. Just listen to the Spoon. She knows what she's talking about! *brandishes mod stick and glares balefully* Play nice, people. No insults, no returning insults, no petty cheap shots and broad generalizations, regardless of race, creed, height, hair color, etc. Ex: That Muslim comment was a cheap shot, and violence by Muslims is very obviously caused by much more than being of a certain faith. I'm sure that any people of any belief system would get pissed off at being mocked when in social conditions that strongly resist relaxing and not taking everything so seriously. Craziness doesn't follow any one religion.

[Jordan]

The vast majority of Muslims are not militant fanatics, most Christians don’t think homosexuality deserves the death penalty, and not all Pagans wear medieval clothing, hate men and worship Celtic deities.

But isn't that a genralization too? Why can't we generalize, it's impossible not too. We all have our views based on our experience and thats all there is too it.

Jews pull the same stunt as Pagans. They ignore their responsiblity to sacrifice living things and just play some other game to fit with the times, but would never actually admit they are fitting in. It must be embarrising for them since it's well known that the 'proper' method involves killing things.

Thats why chrisitianty is the best. You really don't have to do anything. No clothing, no manditory prayers 4 times a day, no killing animals or people, no crystals. Nothing.

But it's also harder to follow since there is no strict religious exercises. It's easy to just forget about for a few months. LIke right now, If i died, I'd probably go to hell. I have not done shit all in ages.

[civilian_number_two]

I’m pretty sure (and I’m not willing to actually go back and check at this time, but I’m pretty sure) that I wasn’t referring to the Celts specifically, but ancient Pagans in general. For me to say that no Pagan ever participated in human sacrifice would be absurd, especially given my lack of witnessing first hand all pagan practices ever for the past 10 or so thousand years.

It was a while back. Madame Corvax said that Celts performed human sacrifices. You asked her to cite a source. I said that Caesar wrote about it, but that I doubted he really knew what he was talking about. So I was taking a skeptic's route, suggesting that "human sacrifice" may well have been mundane execution. You then went on to show that no, from what you had read, celts actually sacrificed humans. You then mentioned that while druids were present, there wasn't any evidence they performed the actual killing. You didn't doubt however that some sacrifice occurred, so I am not 100% as to what you were trying to prove.

Here it is:

http://www.chefelf.c...ic=3710&st=1095

I know many people who practice Irish traditions, and the fact they are of Irish decent is the least important factor in their spirituality, if it is a factor at all. In Celtic communities, it is the devotion to the gods that matters, not your bloodlines.

You seem to have missed my point. I wasn't making an important statement about bloodlines; I was making a petty crack about how pretentious little girls drop Catholicism to take up the beliefs of their forefathers. If the people you're talking about are even a little bit Celtic, then I'm saying that's the source of their religious decision. I don't happen to know of any German medicine men or Chinese druids. It's just the way folks seem to be; they adopt religions based on what traditions seem cool and culturally appropriate. I agree that there may be some exceptions; I keep seeing white people turning to Krishna, which I think is hillarious. I just haven't seen much of the sorts of exceptions you're referring to.

I understand it may be noce to drop out of a patriarchal institution, but is it necessary to adopt a matriarchal one? It seems to me it's still a load of people telling you what and how to believe. I prefer the evidence of my own eyes to a lot of fairy stories.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 10 June 2006 - 04:11 AM

[Sailor Abbey]

It was a while back. Madame Corvax said that Celts performed human sacrifices. You asked her to cite a source. I said that Caesar wrote about it, but that I doubted he really knew what he was talking about. So I was taking a skeptic's route, suggesting that "human sacrifice" may well have been mundane execution. You then went on to show that no, from what you had read, celts actually sacrificed humans. You then mentioned that while druids were present, there wasn't any evidence they performed the actual killing. You didn't doubt however that some sacrifice occurred, so I am not 100% as to what you were trying to prove.

I think in that context, MC was trying to tell me that my ancestors (specifically Irish Pagans and Druids) practiced human sacrifice, which there is no evidence for this at all. That isn’t to say it didn’t happen, but there is no evidence at this time, and she had been quite adamant that there was.

There are Roman and Greek accounts of “human sacrifice” by the Gaulic Celts, but they are questionable given their tone, and because they are so similar - almost word for word, and it is likely they are all quoting the same source, Poseidonios. Caesar even point out that the humans being “sacrificed” were prisoners and not just random village folk. Many cultures execute prisoners of war as well as vicious criminals. Having a Druid present would not necessarily make it a religious practice as Druids also functioned as judges.

It's just the way folks seem to be; they adopt religions based on what traditions seem cool and culturally appropriate.

My love for my ancestors, the gods of my ancestors, and the Spirits of the Land, Sea and Sky are the reason I chose to follow and Irish pagan path. It has nothing to do with seeming cool or culturally appropriate.

[Sailor Abbey]

I understand it may be noce to drop out of a patriarchal institution, but is it necessary to adopt a matriarchal one? It seems to me it's still a load of people telling you what and how to believe. I prefer the evidence of my own eyes to a lot of fairy stories.

I don’t belong to an institution, there’s nobody to tell me what and how to believe. I am solely responsible for discerning the proper methods to honor and celebrate the gods, through historical research, logical deduction and meditation. There is no Vatican that decides which prayers are appropriate, no doctors of any church to tell me what days I should refrain from eating certain foods. I am only required to follow my spirit, and my gods will judge my actions accordingly.