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Poor Catholic Church ...always the victim

#91 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 09:50 PM

QUOTE (barend @ Jun 6 2006, 05:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
on it's own... not technically no.


What do you mean by "on its own"?
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#92 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 01:37 AM

*sigh* Alright then...

QUOTE (barend @ Jun 7 2006, 01:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
numbers don't make a religion...

True.

QUOTE (barend @ Jun 7 2006, 01:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
don't get me wrong, i like taoism, but a "religion" requires worship and belief in a higher power or powers...

And a little more...

QUOTE (Good old Wikipedia)
Religion is a human phenomenon that defies easy definition. It is commonly understood as a group of beliefs or attitudes concerning an object (real or imagined), person (real or imagined), or system of thought considered to be supernatural, sacred, or divine, and the moral codes, practices, values, institutions, and rituals associated with such belief or system of thought.


That alone should prove my point, but let's get into detail anyway.

QUOTE (barend @ Jun 7 2006, 01:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Taoism was pure lifestyle choices, then eventually the state recognised it as a religion because a multitude of people were practicing it.


It's true, people always find it difficult to distinguish between a mere philosophy and a religion when it comes to Taoism. Daojiao, however, consists of the belief in gods, ghosts and other spirits and adds the philosophical elements to that. So there, they believe in a higher power. It's assumed that there are about 8 million taoists, the numbers of those who actually practice daojiao must be even smaller, so you've got a point, I guess.

QUOTE (barend @ Jun 7 2006, 01:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
the force, jedism, could not be refered to as a religion.

Not since they tried to explain things logically with midichlorians, no. pinch.gif

QUOTE (barend @ Jun 7 2006, 01:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
budhism, is the following of one mans phyillosphies on how to conduct one's self in worship. it is supplimental to religion. a religious component.

Nope. Buddhists believe in a certain order, a certain system of thought. They believe that they'll be reborn into yet another episode of pain if they cannot escape the circle of Dharma (supernatural thing number one) and reach Nirvana (supernatural thing number two). The philosophy of Buddhism is the way to achieve this, much like the ten commandments and Jesus' teachings are supposed to be the way to heaven for Christians. There's always a philosophy surrounding a religion, but it's not all there is.

QUOTE (barend @ Jun 7 2006, 01:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
but you can't hate pasificsts who know kung fu. there's no reason to and it's not wise.

Uhh... yes.

Edit: Added "Jesus' teachings" in order to prevent people from accusing me of making Christians Jews once again.

This post has been edited by Gobbler: 07 June 2006 - 01:40 AM

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#93 User is offline   Sailor Abbey Icon

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 07:27 AM

QUOTE (Just another wretched fan @ Jun 6 2006, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I mean, Julius Caesar and Caesar Augustus were both supposedly living Gods, but I doubt many people believed it. Islam and Buddism had human founders who didn't claim to be divine.


The Pharaohs of Egypt were supposed to be living gods, but I think in this case, the people really did believe it.
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#94 User is offline   Sailor Abbey Icon

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 07:46 AM

QUOTE (Just another wretched fan @ Jun 6 2006, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Secondly where do you stand on this (somewhat weak) scenario? The impartial Roman historian Tacitus confirmed that a man named Jesus of Nazareth existed and that he was executed. All of Christianity claims that he rose from the dead, a miracle.


I know if I was a devout follower of a great spiritual leader who had been executed, I would be willing to go to some length to make sure his message lived on, including faking a resurrection, either by jacking the corpse and having everybody go and look at the empty tomb, and/or by claiming to have seen his ghost, or even the man himself in flesh.

I actually don’t have any problems with the apostles claiming to have seen Jesus alive after his death. Apparitions are a pretty common phenomena. Its possible the story tellers embellished a bit, and that Tomas did not stick his hands in the wounds of Christ. Its possible that all persons claiming to have seen Jesus after his death were all just hysterical, or all willing to lie to keep Christianity alive. Who really knows for sure.
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#95 User is offline   Just another wretched fan Icon

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 03:05 PM

QUOTE (Sailor Abbey @ Jun 7 2006, 08:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know if I was a devout follower of a great spiritual leader who had been executed, I would be willing to go to some length to make sure his message lived on, including faking a resurrection, either by jacking the corpse and having everybody go and look at the empty tomb, and/or by claiming to have seen his ghost, or even the man himself in flesh.

I actually don’t have any problems with the apostles claiming to have seen Jesus alive after his death. Apparitions are a pretty common phenomena. Its possible the story tellers embellished a bit, and that Tomas did not stick his hands in the wounds of Christ. Its possible that all persons claiming to have seen Jesus after his death were all just hysterical, or all willing to lie to keep Christianity alive. Who really knows for sure.


I agree that it is a possible explanation, but is it plausible?

Personally, I find mass hysteria or mass conspiracy theories are a stretch. Either way, many of these first hand witnesses would have had to keep a hoax with them through persecution and on to painfully bloody graves. What sort of personal gain could they have gotten out of the hoax while they lay on the chopping block as the executioner approached?

I just don't have a good answer.
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#96 User is offline   Otal Nimrodi Icon

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 03:51 PM

I don't think they would have done it for PERSONAL gain. If the sort of stuff that Jesus said in the Bible is anything NEAR what he actually said, he had some pretty good ideas. Some pretty good ideas that, frankly, needed to be payed attention to, and still need attention payed to them. They may have figured that 'look, here's this guy, we liked this guy, and he was spot on when it came to ideas that could prevent people from killing each-other, but who will LISTEN to them if they come from just a guy.' If that's what they thought, immediately they would need him to have some sort of DIVINE reason. Now, one could argue 'look at all these miracles he's done.' But miracleworkers were still a dime a dozen in the old days, they were like modern parlor magicians. So they need something REALLY unique, a trick that no other magician has pulled. No magician has become famous by doing what everyone else has done before. That trick was coming back from the dead. NOW people will listen.
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#97 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 04:01 PM

QUOTE (Just another wretched fan)
I agree that it is a possible explanation, but is it plausible?

Personally, I find mass hysteria or mass conspiracy theories are a stretch. Either way, many of these first hand witnesses would have had to keep a hoax with them through persecution and on to painfully bloody graves. What sort of personal gain could they have gotten out of the hoax while they lay on the chopping block as the executioner approached?

I just don't have a good answer.

You did notice that people were plenty stupid back then, right?

Edit: Still are, even.

This post has been edited by Gobbler: 07 June 2006 - 04:23 PM

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#98 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 06:14 PM

budhist beleive in a cycle of reincarnation that, if handled peacfully and well, places ones self on a higher level of existance in each turn. it's slower than the christian belief of being eventually resurected and going to heaven (or becoming a ghost of your catholic), but it is a belief in holy assention.

Taoism, while devotional, was...

no, wait...

i said i wasn't going to baited into this... accept my glib interpretations and lazy abreviations or don't. i don't really care... we're so off topic.
but good old wikpedia would have us beleive that a blockbuster video membership was religious invlolvememnt...
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#99 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 02:03 AM

I know, I know, I just used it for the sake of argument. To me, religion actually isn't more than good merchandise, but meh... let's get back on-topic.

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#100 User is offline   darth_paul Icon

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 09:16 AM

QUOTE
Fine then, Budhism isnt a religion also. Can anyone think of any others?


-"Presbytrian is [not] a religion." tongue.gif Sorry, couldn't help myself with the lame reference from the movie, Fools Run In - (Which I can't stand btw since my college roommate watched it every day which is the only reason I even know that line!)

QUOTE
What’s happened with Wicca is unfortunate. It seems to attract a lot of people who feel rejected by society or who are rebelling against mainstream religion. In all fairness, I’ve met a lot of freaks who claim to be Wiccan. But there’s a lot of regular folks too, people who don’t feel the need to wear nothing but velvet corsets and 10 different pentacles every day.


Um… huh.gif isn't that exactly what you are, a freak who feels rejected by society or is rebelling against mainstream religion by turning to some whacked out hippie new age worship of rocks and trees? Eariler in this tread one of your responses was that you didn't like priests telling you, "Well, you just have to have faith." and that you are an extreme religious fanatic. Well, that's fine but really as I see it you do have faith, it's just that you've chosen to put it into the wrong things. Instead of staying strong in the faith in Jesus you've decided to worship false idols. You also say that you aren't a sheep and aren't part of anyone's flock, and yet as much as you don't want to believe it you are. You are the lost black sheep, and do you know what happens to the sheep that wanders away from the flock? The shepherd breaks the sheep's legs so that it never leaves again.

One more thing, yes the world is a beautiful multicolored place, full of different thoughts and ideas, it would be pretty boring if it wasn't, but there is black and white, good or evil and there are no greys in between. You either choose one or the other and you make your choices and you live with the consequences.
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#101 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 10:37 AM

QUOTE (darth_paul @ Jun 8 2006, 04:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You also say that you aren't a sheep and aren't part of anyone's flock, and yet as much as you don't want to believe it you are. You are the lost black sheep, and do you know what happens to the sheep that wanders away from the flock? The shepherd breaks the sheep's legs so that it never leaves again.
Whoa. I know that your stupid religion demands that you try to spread the message and convert people, but I don't think this method is very likely to have the desired effect.

QUOTE (darth_paul @ Jun 8 2006, 04:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
One more thing, yes the world is a beautiful multicolored place, full of different thoughts and ideas, it would be pretty boring if it wasn't, but there is black and white, good or evil and there are no greys in between. You either choose one or the other and you make your choices and you live with the consequences.
*cough* *cough* Bullshit *cough*

This post has been edited by Gobbler: 08 June 2006 - 10:37 AM

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#102 User is offline   darth_paul Icon

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 11:34 AM

My Stupid Religion? Abbey's the one with the Supid Religion. Everyone's entitled to thier wrong opinion, Gobbler. I just speak the truth, there's no bull shit.
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#103 User is offline   Otal Nimrodi Icon

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 12:38 PM

OMG! ohmy.gif

The way you talked about truth there made me realize something.


DARTH PAUL IS STEVEN COLBERT!

Seriously though, if everyone is entitled to the wrong opinion, how do you know yours is right?
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#104 User is offline   Just another wretched fan Icon

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 12:51 PM

I think there are a lot of grey areas within religion.

For example, there is the whole complexity of "the lesser evil"

For mother-theresa, only working 95% her ass off to help the poor instead of 110%, every day could be a sin, where as for an abusive alcoholic, giving up on drinking once could be a major victory. True, within grey there are degrees of black and white; "helping people is good, hurting people is bad" but really those statements are incredibly large generalizations found all the time.

Take the way you dress for example. Lets say for the sake of example that making yourself into a sex object is wrong, but it degrades you into an object instead of a human being.

There are a lot of grey areas involved because what was conservative now was really racy back in victorian times. Marilyn Monroe's outfits may have given our grandfathers boners but she doesn't even phase us now.

Also, toplessness doesn't seem to do anything for those guys down by the equator.

So where there may be black and white with the rule "don't become an object" - either you do or you don't, there is plenty of grey in the application.
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#105 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 01:30 PM

Lots again. YOu folks are too prolific. I suppose I have a hard time catching up with all the 15-hour days I'm working.

1. The resurrection was documented 30 years after its alleged occurrence. I say it never happened. Christianity spread successfully outside the Jewish world, and slowly within it. Quickly it got to where the Jewish diet was dropped, and writers claimed that the reason was that God had told Peter "secretly" that it was ok. So all the stuff about "it must be true, because these guys were eyewitnesses and the facts could have been corroborated by folks in the affected area" is weak. Fact is, the documents came well after the fact, were written by men who were not eyewitnesses, were read by folks well outside the affected area (in a different language, no less), and believed by folks unable to seek out any further evidence. The spread of Christianity is a product of good advertising by people of Faith. There is no evidence however of any genuine Divine inspiration.

2. Abbey, in another thread I suggested that we didn't have enough evidence to show that pagan people made human sacrifices. To show your erudition, you then cited sources to show that they had. Now that Jordan says they did, you ask him to prove it. This is yawn-worthy. You believe that pagans sacrificed humans, and you believe that you can prove it. Askig Jordan to prove it is simple contrariness.

3. The Catholics of late have made much of the passage "in my father's house there are many mansions." It is a belief spread among Catholic missionaries that conversion to Catholicism is not necessary to avoid fire and brimstone. Catholics don't believe that anyone not exposed to Catholicism, say if they live in a part of the world not in contact with a Catholic missionary, will burn in hell for all eternity. This is a general Christian belief, and it fuled the "white man's burden" that was self-appointed by Anglican warlords and eventually American colonials. It is no longer a Catholic belief however. Catholics do try to spread the word of God, and specifically Catholicism, but they talk more of sin and using God to guide you, etc. They don't go on about "one way" and heresy. Catholics see Protestants as separated brethren, no longer as heretics. Catholics haven't accused anyone of heresy in about 200 years. In that case, too, it was really the Inquisition and not the Catholic Church at all. Catholics last accused someone of heresy in the time of Shakespeare (Giordano Bruno, executed in 1600 for a collection of heretical beliefs including Copernicanism and (probably more important) an unlimited universe with innumerable inhabited worlds). Info per wikipedia.

4. This conversation started because the Catholic Church doesn't like the Da Vinci Code. Poor poor Catholic Church, that folks might say things about them. I see it that it is their duty to their stockholders to protect their brand name from infringement. Even in this thread, whgen other beliefs are challenged and questioned, proponents rise to the call and defend their faith (yes I mean you, Abbey). I wouldn't say that questioning this reportedly bad film (haven't see it) and worse book (reviews critique remedial English and limited scholarship) shows that the Church is defensive or sensitive. Responding to irreligious claims that include the name of Catholicism is simply their duty to their constituency. I haven't heard of any threats at excommunication or auto de fe. Any general attacks on Catholics regarding this film are the prejudices of the attackers; they're not based on anything the church itself has said or done.

5. I'm with Jordan on modern paganism being a load of baloon juice. It's little more than nationalism, really, followed by folks who can trace a blood line to folks who believed the stuff in the old days. It's no stranger or less strange however than any other faith, except as abbey says when they wear corsets and think their life is a roleplaying game. Any religion I followed wouldn't involve fake Middle English or multi-sided dice. I dare say that modern paganism has more nerds than any other religion (I don't include Jedi, for reasons I hope are obvious). The burden of proof is still there howveer. Show me the ghosts, or allow me to see the direct line between one dead being and its reincarnated self. Or, you know, SOMETHING. My hand into the wounds, so to speak. Otherwise, you got as much as the rest of them, a cute little storybook with pretty pictures and funny names.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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