[Sailor Abbey]

Being a Conservative actualy means that you are against gay rights, you best just declare yourself other then Conservative or Liberal so as to not confuse anyone... like me...

No, thats not what that means. Heres some stuff about concervatism

we don't pray to Mary,

Catholics do prey to Mary. But they pray to the saints and Mary as a kind of intervention. Its like asking somebody who is close to the Judeo-Christian god to pull some strings for you. Mary gets the most attention because she's the mother of god, and what son will refuse when his mom asks him a favor. Sure none of its necessary, but theyr old pagan traditions that the church had to adopt in order to convert the masses.

[Otal Nimrodi]

Statues of saints are not idols, we don't pray to Mary, and the Pope doesn't replace God. And those red dots on the foreheads of Hindus aren't cigarette burns, either.

Err.... What?

[darth_paul]

by what right does any man have to cleanse my sins?

Jesus said to Peter, "Whatever, you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven and whatever you let loose on Earth will be let loose in Heaven." This is exacatly what gives "men" (i.e. priests) the right to forgive sins through confession. Jesus gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom and made him the 1st pope, and the other Apostles were the 1st priests given their power to preach and forgive others at Pentecost. This is the begining of the Catholic Church and the only church founded by Jesus himself and therefore the [u]only true church and religion in the world. No matter what most of you want to believe that's the truth. You think that we are all brainwashed and whatever, but the reality is that the truth hurts and no one wants to believe it when it's right there in front of them and if you just open your eyes you'll see it. Revisit the bible and read the parable of the seeds in the New Testement and depending on what kind of seed you are you'll either get what I'm telling you or you won't. Yes, the Catholic Church isn't perfect, our members aren't perfect, I'm not perfect, but I believe in my religion and I will defend it, and no matter how much you bash me you will never change that so don't waste your time. My religion was founded by Jesus himself not some guy like Martin Luther or Joe Smith Whatever who like many of you just up and decided that they didn't like the "rules and regulations" and decided to start their own religions. Yes, there is a free will with us as human beings and that's why God has let us choose whether or not we wish to be Catholic, or Protestant or Athiest or whatever, and you can choose to live your lives however you want, but don't think that there are no consequences for your actions at all. You don't have to be Catholic or go to confession if you don't want to, no on is twisting your arm, no on is twisting mine. It's a matter of choice, and like I said no one is perfect and there will always be dissention in the ranks in any organization. I am not a perfect Catholic, none of us are, but I try to live my life the best that I can according to my belief system and I should hope that all of you do the same according to yours.
Anyways, I've had far too many instances in my life where bad things have happened to me in my life as a result of my actions for them to just be "a coincidence" and my life is generally better when I don't stray from the "straight and narrow path". I firmly believe in "eveything happens for a reason" and "what goes around comes around/good karma - bad karma" if you will. So, in conclusion, I am not going on here and just lashing out and bashing everyone else for their bashing of my faith and their general ignorance, I am defending my religion as I should be doing. Yes, we are the largest
& richest relgion in the world and yes we did have to incorporate pagan rituals and such to gain followers in the begining of the formation of it and so forth, but it was all according to God's plan and we didn't just make a bunch of stuff up. Anyway, I suggest that to enlighten yourselves that you pick up a copy of the Catholic Catechism and read up and if you are the right kind of seed then your eyes, minds, and hearts will be open to the truth, but if you are the wrong kind of seed then you will remain as ignorant and closed minded as ever. Take this for what you will, I hope that I have educated some, but all I expect is more bashing which is a shame really.

[Sailor Abbey]

by what right does any man have to cleanse my sins?

Jesus said to Peter, "Whatever, you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven and whatever you let loose on Earth will be let loose in Heaven."

Maybe he said that. Nobody really knows what was said. How do we know Peter was a power hungry egomaniac and paid off the author to say Jesus said that. It cant be proven one way or the other. Maybe thats not even what he meant. Its a matter of interpretation, and a matter of believing something that may never have taken place.

This is the begining of the Catholic Church and the only church founded by Jesus himself and therefore the only true church and religion in the world.

Maybe Jesus had already established a church - in the heart of mankind. If he wanted a "church" so bad, he could have come right out and established one. He had the financing. He had the people around to take notes. I think if Jesus wanted a big ass governing organization he would have come right out and said it, not casually mentioned some cryptic bullshit.

This is the begining of the Catholic Church and the [u]only church founded by Jesus himself and therefore the [u]only true church and religion in the world. No matter what most of you want to believe that's the truth. You think that we are all brainwashed and whatever, but the reality is that the truth hurts and no one wants to believe it when it's right there in front of them and if you just open your eyes you'll see it.

See, this is exactly what I was talking about. If I didnt know better, I'd swear Darth Paul was my grandma's screen name.

Maybe what’s right in front of everybody’s face is doesn’t make a lick of sense, and that’s why they don’t believe it. Usually the person who blindly accepts something is the one who is afraid to face the truth.

Do you even know why you believe the things you do? It sounds like your just repeating something thats been beat into you over a period of years.

My religion was founded by Jesus himself not some guy like Martin Luther or Joe Smith Whatever who like many of you just up and decided that they didn't like the "rules and regulations" and decided to start their own religions.

Everything in Catholicism was invented by men. Which part or your religion exactly did Jesus found? Have you ever bothered to study Catholicism. Its been molded from the beginning as those in power have seen fit. Everything from the subcommandments to cannon law.

we didn't just make a bunch of stuff up.

Yeah, ya did. Crack open a history book my friend. Its all there.

Anyway, I suggest that to enlighten yourselves that you pick up a copy of the Catholic Catechism and read up and if you are the right kind of seed then your eyes, minds, and hearts will be open to the truth, but if you are the wrong kind of seed then you will remain as ignorant and closed minded as ever.

You're the one whose being close-minded Darth Paul. Your so convinced the Catholic Church is the ONE AND ONLY TRUE way to worship divinity that you refuse to even try to see where other religions and spiritualities are coming from. Are you afraid to really sit down and think about it, with an open mind?

This post has been edited by Sailor Abbey: 26 May 2006 - 11:36 AM

[Cyzyk]

Ignoring all the dithering about details-

I believe in unjust acts, but I do not believe such acts leave an indelible mark on your soul which can only be removed by the sacrament of reconciliation, the sacrament of communion (if it’s a venial sin), or any length of time in purgatory.

So you don't believe said unjust acts will keep you out of heaven unless you recognize them as wrong?

Some people don’t seem to possess the strong desire to pass on their genetic code. Its quite possibly something in their make up. The only problem is, according to the Catholic church, this makes them ineligible for marriage.

At no point have you explained why you consider sex to be a recreational activity when your touted nature points to the contrary.

and i don't think anyone has actually killed more than ye olde catholic church, so it's all a little academic really.

The Catholic Church has killed how many people? The Inquisition wasn't at the behest of the church, neither were the Crusades. Why don't you take a nice little number check on the Mongols over a much shorter period. That statement is patently incorrect.

the church also likes to push the saved by works thing, which is a bit of a jesus slap really.

So in spite of Jesus telling people constantly to 'go and sin no more', what you do doesn't matter?

aside from killing my anscestors and forcing us to move (although i prefer being able to say i'm dutch rather than french

I happen to be a Syrian Christian. You know who got massacred by both the European Christians and the Moslems during the Crusades? Arab Christians. Do you let history dictate everything you do? If so, you'd better start apologizing to the Catholics for the rumors the Dutch spread about them in Japan.

why have the statuettes or bear a crucafix if not to rely upon it in some manner?

what the hell is hale mary then?

the pope one is in some special catholic book manuel thing, i'll have to make phone call to get the quote.

Devotional items are not worshipped. They are to lend focus to worship. It is harder to get distracted from praying or meditating if you have something physical to focus on.

Praying is the verb for communicating with the dead (saints, usually) and God. You worship God when you pray to Him. When you pray to Mary or the Saints, you're asking for a favor. Or thanking them for one. I'll agree that it seems a bit superstitious, but if you look at miracles in the last century, most of them happen because people pray.

The Pope is not God, the Pope is not a replacement for God, and the Pope isn't even always right. Depending on the Pope, some are almost never right.

Maybe he said that. Nobody really knows what was said. How do we know Peter was a power hungry egomaniac and paid off the author to say Jesus said that. It cant be proven one way or the other. Maybe thats not even what he meant. Its a matter of interpretation, and a matter of believing something that may never have taken place.

If Jesus didn't say that, I suspect someone else would have taken issue with it. The early church was full of people who played fast and loose with such things, and the bulk of them got run out because you had witnesses for most of it.

Maybe Jesus had already established a church - in the heart of mankind. If he wanted a "church" so bad, he could have come right out and established one. He had the financing. He had the people around to take notes. I think if Jesus wanted a big ass governing organization he would have come right out and said it, not casually mentioned some cryptic bullshit.

How small can an organization be if it is responsible for ensuring correct doctrine is available to over a billion people in around 190 countries? Catechisms do not translate themselves. Priests do not appear out of nowhere. Jesus wasn't here to set up retirement plans for the apostles and check up on liability insurance.

Do you even know why you believe the things you do? It sounds like your just repeating something thats been beat into you over a period of years.

I don't know about him, but I believe what I do because I must. For several years, I was a conservative Mennonite. Then I went back to being a Catholic. In the interim, I recieved years of religious education to the effect of 'Catholics are bad and monks shave their heads because they worship the sun'. So I'm hardly brainwashed into liking Catholicism, more like the opposite.

But as a rational and hopefully intelligent person, I have read the Bible (several translations, including the Vulgate), the Catechism, the Summa, over a dozen Bible commentaries by everyone from Mennonites to gnostics, and thousands of pages of similar material. Lives of the Saints, writings of the Saints, and hunted down historical cross-proofs of Saints. I have read up most of the available material on the miracles at Lourdes and Fatima, and cannot see any reason to disbelieve them. And if one believes them, you must admit the existance of God.

Even without those miracles, I have good reasons, not the least of which is Pascal's argument regarding faith. Basically, if I believe in God, and there is God, I am much better off for it. If I believe in God, and there is no God, then all I've lost is some opportunities to tell lies and engage in generic immorality that doesn't seem like so much fun and kills your reputation anyway. (Assuming you don't get an STD to boot.) If I do not believe in God, and there is no God, all I've been is a little more selfish and probably made the world an inferior place for the rest of you. But, if I do not believe in God and there is a God, I get to go to Hell for eternity.

I'll agree that fear of Hell is a lot more motivating that the idea of Heaven. After all, something better than what I've got can be elusive. If I tell you I've got something that tastes better than black liquorice, and you don't like black liquorice, you probably don't want it. People's like are diverse and hard to put into words. On the other hand, being stuck in a furnace doesn't really appeal to anyone.

You're the one whose being close-minded Darth Paul. Your so convinced the Catholic Church is the ONE AND ONLY TRUE way to worship divinity that you refuse to even try to see where other religions and spiritualities are coming from. Are you afraid to really sit down and think about it, with an open mind?

Again, I don't know about him, but I've seen what other religions are like. The God the Catholics worship is eternal and omnipotent. We believe that a good man is defined by his actions, not his supposed 'faith'.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
Matthew 7:16.

The Catholic Church is almost 2000 years old. It has produced many saints, and many miracles. It has also contained people eager to abuse the power it holds and is constantly tainted by those seeking to expand that power by diverting the focus of the Church. Nothing that is ancient is perfect.

[Sailor Abbey]

So you don't believe said unjust acts will keep you out of heaven unless you recognize them as wrong?

I don’t believe in heaven and hell. I believe in the Otherworlds. And I do not believe that unjust acts will keep me out of one of them - I have to go someplace between incarnations. I believe there are repercussions for unjust acts, and I will either experience them in this life, or the next.

At no point have you explained why you consider sex to be a recreational activity when your touted nature points to the contrary.

Oh I believe its purpose is for procreation. But I've also seen a monkey jerk itself off. Nature intends for pleasure as well, if it did not, we wouldn’t experience such fabulous sensations during intercourse. The point I was getting at was that the Catholic church doesn’t allow for sexual pleasure outside of the sanctity of marriage. In fact, it does its best to make sure such acts are laden with feelings of guilt and shame. Impure thoughts. Masturbation. Premarital Sex. All sins in the eyes of god. What the fuck ever.

The Pope is not God, the Pope is not a replacement for God, and the Pope isn't even always right. Depending on the Pope, some are almost never right.

Right but he is infalible on the subjects of faith and morals. So sayith the Catholic Church.

If Jesus didn't say that, I suspect someone else would have taken issue with it. The early church was full of people who played fast and loose with such things, and the bulk of them got run out because you had witnesses for most of it.

The gospels are full of contradictions. You weren’t there, you didn’t hear it, you have no way of knowing those were his exact words. You can believe it all day, but it doesn’t make it true.

How small can an organization be if it is responsible for ensuring correct doctrine is available to over a billion people in around 190 countries?

Well maybe Jesus didn’t want a catechism. Maybe his message was so simple that it didn’t need a bunch of extra additions and a lot of creative interpretations. Maybe that’s why he didn’t construct an organization himself.

I don't know about him, but I believe what I do because I must.

Great reason.

So I'm hardly brainwashed into liking Catholicism, more like the opposite.

But you don’t exactly know where other religions are coming from either. You’ve never studied spirituality from a polytheist or a duotheist, point of view for example. How do you know you would look at your belief system the same way, if you were more informed of the thousands of varying theologies from around the world.

And if one believes them, you must admit the existance of God.

Define 'god.'

Basically, if I believe in God, and there is God, I am much better off for it. If I believe in God, and there is no God, then all I've lost is some opportunities to tell lies and engage in generic immorality that doesn't seem like so much fun and kills your reputation anyway. (Assuming you don't get an STD to boot.) If I do not believe in God, and there is no God, all I've been is a little more selfish and probably made the world an inferior place for the rest of you. But, if I do not believe in God and there is a God, I get to go to Hell for eternity.

So basically, what your saying its better to be Catholic, just in case what the Catholics say is true, and it is the only valid religion in the entire universe of some 70 million trillion stars or whatever.

I think my gods are happy to know that I dont worship them out of fear. In fact, I'm not required to feel fear at all.

Again, I don't know about him, but I've seen what other religions are like. The God the Catholics worship is eternal and omnipotent.

Yes, eternal and omnipotent, but without anything negative. Your god supposedly permeates all existence, yet it is totally separate from all things evil. If your god were really the omnipotent source of all existence you think it is, it would be apart of all things, including rape, murder, toxic waste, supernovae and chocolate milk.

The Catholic god is a facet of something much bigger and better which they refuse to see. They apply human attributes to it like anger, mercy and sorrow. How can such a universal force be so simple and petty?

This post has been edited by Sailor Abbey: 26 May 2006 - 03:56 PM

[Cyzyk]

I don’t believe in heaven and hell. I believe in the Otherworlds. And I do not believe that unjust acts will keep me out of one of them - I have to go someplace between incarnations. I believe there are repercussions for unjust acts, and I will either experience them in this life, or the next.

Any reason to believe in any of that? At least I can point to miracles and the visions of saints.

Right but he is infalible on the subjects of faith and morals. So sayith the Catholic Church.

Only when speaking infallibly, ex cathedra. Which is not always or even often.

The gospels are full of contradictions. You weren’t there, you didn’t hear it, you have no way of knowing those were his exact words. You can believe it all day, but it doesn’t make it true.

Let's assume for the moment that the Bible is completely wrong and thought up by a random Korean in his spare time for a joke. Explain the existance of artifacts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Spontaneous generation is not an answer.

Well maybe Jesus didn’t want a catechism. Maybe his message was so simple that it didn’t need a bunch of extra additions and a lot of creative interpretations. Maybe that’s why he didn’t construct an organization himself.

Does Jesus ever say that cannibalism is bad? Not in so many words. Your "creative interpretations" are a neccesity. Why did Jesus have so many parables if he didn't expect people to figure it out for themselves?

Great reason.

In English, we call these things topic sentences. They are the subject of the paragraph that follows.

But you don’t exactly know where other religions are coming from either. You’ve never studied spirituality from a polytheist or a duotheist, point of view for example. How do you know you would look at your belief system the same way, if you were more informed of the thousands of varying theologies from around the world.

I've been 'informed' of the other theologies. I've had religious disputes with Buddhists, animists, druid wannabes, wiccans, Baptists, atheists, and gnostics.

Define 'god.'

If you're going to be cute, at least post a pic. Either way, you've got a dictionary.

So basically, what your saying its better to be Catholic, just in case what the Catholics say is true, and it is the only valid religion in the entire universe of some 70 million trillion stars or whatever.

I think my gods are happy to know that I dont worship them out of fear. In fact, I'm not required to feel fear at all.

That is an argument for the existance of God, not Catholicism. As for the fear, I suspect God would prefer not to be worshipped out of fear. Human nature makes them that way, and I explained the psychology of that.

The Catholic god is a facet of something much bigger and better which they refuse to see. They apply human attributes to it like anger, mercy and sorrow. How can such a universal force be so simple and petty?

Even a minor knowledge of metaphysics should clue you in to the fact that God, an infinitely complicated entity, is beyond human comprehension. As a result, we apply an image to God we can comprehend.

Oh I believe its purpose is for procreation. But I've also seen a monkey jerk itself off. Nature intends for pleasure as well, if it did not, we wouldn’t experience such fabulous sensations during intercourse. The point I was getting at was that the Catholic church doesn’t allow for sexual pleasure outside of the sanctity of marriage. In fact, it does its best to make sure such acts are laden with feelings of guilt and shame. Impure thoughts. Masturbation. Premarital Sex. All sins in the eyes of god. What the fuck ever.

Sexual pleasure outside the sanctity of marriage leads to single moms and rape. Even a sociologist will tell you these are bad things.

[Otal Nimrodi]

If you're going to be cute, at least post a pic. Either way, you've got a dictionary.

I think she meant it as a philosophical question. But, when it comes to pics, if I must, I must.


The one on the right. The floaty one.

The one on the... Wait... The all of them.

This post has been edited by Otal Nimrodi: 26 May 2006 - 07:55 PM

[Cyzyk]

And Otal scores the first, and possibly only, point.

[Sailor Abbey]

Any reason to believe in any of that? At least I can point to miracles and the visions of saints.

The Otherworld is the home of the gods, and my gods assure me that it is there. My ancestors believed in it, and I have spoken with many spirits and beings who have been there.

Let's assume for the moment that the Bible is completely wrong and thought up by a random Korean in his spare time for a joke. Explain the existence of artifacts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Spontaneous generation is not an answer.

I’m not saying is a complete fabrication. All I’m saying is there’s no way to know Jesus said any of that stuff. You take it on faith because somebody told you to.

Got a bible handy? Read Matthew 5:3 to 7:28. DO you have any Idea how long that is? Well, supposedly those are Jesus’ exact words. Let me give you a little excerpt, just to show you what I mean

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law of the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear form the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks on of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless you righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers o the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

You mean to tell me, anywhere from 40-200 years after Jesus’ death, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John just happened to remember all of that, word for word? Are you fucking kidding me? I cant remember a word for word conversation I had 3 hours ago.

Does Jesus ever say that cannibalism is bad?

He probably figured stuff like that was a no brainer. If you need an empire of priests and theologians to state the obvious, something’s definitely amiss.

in so many words. Your "creative interpretations" are a necessity. Why did Jesus have so many parables if he didn't expect people to figure it out for themselves?

Cause people like you weren’t catching on I guess.

In English, we call these things topic sentences. They are the subject of the paragraph that follows.

Way to dodge out of your crappy reason for believing. I believe because I must. Wow. I bet Jesus really digs that.

I've been 'informed' of the other theologies. I've had religious disputes with Buddhists, animists, druid wannabes, wiccans, Baptists, atheists, and gnostics.

Yeah and I’m sure having disputes with people really qualifies as looking at their belief systems with an open mind.

If you're going to be cute, at least post a pic. Either way, you've got a dictionary.

In fact I was being very serious. How do you define god?

Even a minor knowledge of metaphysics should clue you in to the fact that God, an infinitely complicated entity, is beyond human comprehension.

But the Catholic Church OBVIOUSLY understands this infinitely complicated entity’s will. That’s how they can keep coming up with more rules and regulations that should apply to all beings in the entire universe.

As a result, we apply an image to God we can comprehend.

And put words in its mouth to boot.

Sexual pleasure outside the sanctity of marriage leads to single moms and rape. Even a sociologist will tell you these are bad things.

No it doest. Getting pregnant by douche bags leads to single moms and walking down back allys leads to rape. Having consensual sex and using protection leads to a happy fulfilling sex life. Having sex is a basic human instinct. Suppressing your sexual nature is unhealthy, and all kinds of doctors will tell you that.

[civilian_number_two]

Hey, this place is really cooking up! Here's my thoughts:

1) Pascal's wager is flawed because it proposes only two posibilities, and assumes one to be harmless while the other to have possible negative consequences. In fact both could be negative: a divine being could exist and it could hate Christians. If the only reason to believe in the Christian God is that you may as well, you may be better off believing in nothing. There may be many possible ways to believe, and many could be wrong and dangerous. Therefore it is no longer the neat mathematical argumnent Pascal wanted it to be; it's as much a leap of faith as any other motive for embracing any particular religious belief system. I would recommend having an actual personal miracle or religious experience as your motive for believing, rather than this bit of flawed logic.

2) The Catholic Church was not founded by Peter and cannot trace itself back perfectly continuously. That is crazy propoganda. The church now derives from a history of political upheavals, defecting popes, wars and huge shifts in theology. The notion that revelation did not end with the bible is what allows Catholics to change their dogma whenever it suits them. The church now is fundamentally different from the thing that Jesus allegedly started. The rot set in right away when it dropped the Jewish diet and claimed that it was ok since Peter had had a vision in his sleep, a vison telling him that it was ok to follow Jesus and not be Jewish. Jesus himself said (as Abbey cited) that none of the old laws should be broken. Once the early Christians got away with that one, they were free to create a new priesthood, and demand celibacy so the organization would not have to support priest's wives, and so on. It is so visibly an institution run by men that it is no less than a complete leap of faith to accept that any church now can claim continuity back to Jesus and his first disciples.

3) Saints and Popes are inventions of men. Even the Catholics have admitted that most of their religious artifacts were fake, and several saints have lost their authenticity over time. For instance, Saint Christopher, possibly the most famous saint that ever was, never existed. And only the last Pope finally came out and said Limbo, a long-important piece of otherworldly real estate, doesn't exist. By some sort of decree, one set of guys made the thing exist, and another made it not exist. This is pretty much by definition a load of nonsense.

4) The notion that the Bible would have been challenged in its own time and since it wasn't and still exists, it must be true, is a total cop-out. The Bible WAS challenged in its own time, and no-one can prove whether it depicts real events or not. The folks who wrote the gospels were not eyewitnesses to the events themselves, and were not even contemporaries of Jesus. Any good Catholic Bible will tell you this (Try the Jerusalem Study Bible). Not one Gospel writer has been reasonably identified, but the earliest writing, The Gospel of Mark, has been dated at about 30 years after Jesus's death. Thirty years after the death of John Kennedy, folks were still arguing about what happened there.

5) Sex for pleasure is not the most common cause of single motherhood. That cause would be Divorce. In the first world, most children are born in wedlock, and planned. But anyway, on its own, I don't see what is morally wrong with single motherhood. Maybe two parents would be nice, for the second income, but I don't get what that has to do with sex for pleasure, and I don't think I know of any sociologists who go about saying that single motherhood is a "bad thing." As for rape, I am an atheist and I am not interested in raping anyone. I do however enjoy sex for pleasure. I can't speak for most sociologists, but it's a common understanding that rape isn't really about pleasure to begin with. The stand you are taking is prudish.

6) Abbey's definition of things that are anathema to her religious peoples, beliefs, and unseen gods sounds reasonably close enough to me to be the same as "sin," and it appears that she is making only a semantic distinction. I can only be bothered enough to mention it here; I'm not going to get into that argument.

Edit: some typos

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 28 May 2006 - 08:17 PM

[barend]

The Catholic Church has killed how many people? The Inquisition wasn't at the behest of the church, neither were the Crusades. Why don't you take a nice little number check on the Mongols over a much shorter period. That statement is patently incorrect.

that was hyperbole... i meant out of churches but still. something to be proud of.

So in spite of Jesus telling people constantly to 'go and sin no more', what you do doesn't matter?

what you do matters... but isn't the ethos about accepting jesus into your life?

not making a check list of how many times you sin against how many hail mary's or our fathers you've repeated.

saying the same prayer over and over again doesn't do anything. i'm pretty sure your god heard you the first time.

I happen to be a Syrian Christian. You know who got massacred by both the European Christians and the Moslems during the Crusades? Arab Christians. Do you let history dictate everything you do? If so, you'd better start apologizing to the Catholics for the rumors the Dutch spread about them in Japan.

first of all there's a big difference between mistrusting a church with a shady background who made crap up to booste numbers and murdered, than judging someone for be being born of the same race as someone who did something... that's just racism.

and what lies are they?

the catholic church is definatley not in a position to call anyone a liar.

Devotional items are not worshipped. They are to lend focus to worship. It is harder to get distracted from praying or meditating if you have something physical to focus on.

something physical to focus on? hmmm... isn't that idolotry? shouldn't you be focusing on god?

Praying is the verb for communicating with the dead (saints, usually) and God. You worship God when you pray to Him. When you pray to Mary or the Saints, you're asking for a favor. Or thanking them for one. I'll agree that it seems a bit superstitious, but if you look at miracles in the last century, most of them happen because people pray.

Praying to the dead? despite the bibles warning against necromancy?

and how is it the dead hear your prayers? the bible doesn't support this, infact it condemns it.

the catholic church certainly has warped the whole state of the dead. another liberty taken by a church despit the last few words of revelation.

The Pope is not God, the Pope is not a replacement for God, and the Pope isn't even always right. Depending on the Pope, some are almost never right.

good. now tell everyone else that!

[Cobnat]

Before I become joined in this debate I would just like to state that I am not against the entire Cathelic Church orall Cathelics... only the ROMAN Cathelic Church and Roman Cathelics... but people must understand that Im also against Sunni Islam and Sunni Muslims... Both these religons and its people I consider a deformed reality of what its/thier beliefs really are.

[Slade]

Might I remind everyone to kindly refrain from ad hominem attacks? Pick on a belief system using what you consider logic all you'd like, but don't pick on people themselves.

[Cobnat]

Might I remind everyone to kindly refrain from ad hominem attacks? Pick on a belief system using what you consider logic all you'd like, but don't pick on people themselves.

Thats right! Im a Budhist Extremist, if anyone says anything bad about me I swear on Budhas lard that Im going to find inner peace even faster!