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Poor Catholic Church ...always the victim

#1 User is offline   Sailor Abbey Icon

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 08:15 AM

I guess I could have stuck this on the God thread, but then Cyzyk might not have been able to find it, and we cant have that now can we.

My family, most of whom are devout Catholics are constantly raving about the poor Catholic Church, and oh how persecuted it is, and Jesus said this would happen, but that no matter what, the Church would never be destroyed because its His One True Church and bla bla bla ect ect.

I hear this tripe EVERY TIME somebody talks about the Da Vinci Code, and I’m so bloody sick of it. My response, much to the dismay of my family is something like:

QUOTE (Sailor Abbey @ May 20 2006, 09:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh the poor Catholic Church. sad.gif Always the victim. crying.gif

ohmy.gif I know, stop making people feel guilty for doing things that nature intended them to do and don't go around saying your belief system is the only valid one, and maybe everybody will stop hating you. How bout that, Catholic Church? thumbsup.gif


Allow me to elaborate.

Nature designed (and subsequently intended) human beings to have sex, and lots of it. The Catholic religion asks its constituents to suppress this primal urge - not to prevent against over population, no sir. In fact the Catholic church prohibits the use of any kind of birth control other than “family planning.” It also teaches its peeps that the sole purpose for marriage is to have children, and lots of them - hell, if we cant convert em, we’ll breed em! So you're in love and you don’t want kids. Too bad. Don’t get married.

The Catholic church is losing people left and right, and none of em can seem to figure out why. Of all the Christian denominations not called Jehovah's Witnesses or The Church of Later-Day Saints, Catholicism is the most dogmatic. For every commandment, there’s a whole slew of subcommandments that fall under the category of mortal sin. And a mortal sin will send you straight to hell. If your ever so unfortunate as to have committed one, you must immediately stop what your doing and go directly to the nearest priest and ask to have your confession heard.

Got a little carried away watching Monica Bellucci get naked in Brotherhood of the Wolf. Had to go and relieve a little tension… that’s called masturbation kids, and it’s a sin. It’s a mortal sin in fact. Falls under the seventh commandment of “Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery.”

In fact every sex related incursion falls under this heading, and the repercussions are a fine mixture of guilt, shame and a one way ticket to hell. Hope that lotion doubles as a sunscreen!

So why does everybody rag on the Catholic Church you ask. I cant help but think people are sick to death of all the ridiculous rules that make less and less sense as we move into a more technological and informed world, (the rules I touched on are just the tip of the iceberg folks, it would take years to list em all) and that people are sick and tired of feeling guilty for things nature intended them to do. Like have crazy freaky premarital sex with yourself, a member of the opposite gender, or even a member of the same.

I would like to add, that I do not hate the Catholic church. I respect its traditions and I absolutely love the ritual of the Mass. What I cant stand, is the narrowminded view, that there is only ONE WAY to worship the divine. And the Catholic church is as guilty of this crime as any other monotheistic religion.
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#2 User is offline   SimeSublime Icon

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 10:11 AM

Sorry to take the topic off track after a single post, but you like mass? I'm just completely flabbergasted. I'm having a lot of trouble thinking of something more boring, add to that the horribly uncomfortable pews...I thought not having to go to church was one of the best things about not being Christian.

So, anyway, feel free to ignore me and continue on the conversation.
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#3 User is offline   Sailor Abbey Icon

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 11:10 AM

I’m a big fan of ritual. I’m an even bigger fan of Pagan ritual, and there are a lot of pagan elements in the Catholic Mass. If you’ve ever heard a Latin mass, especially accompanied by those old canticles, you might not think it was so terribly boring. Very beautiful. The traditions within the ritual are centuries old. I love the tradition and the symbolism and the solemnity of it all. But I definitely don’t think its for everybody and I can understand why somebody would rather praise the lord in a different way. You cant be serious all the time. One of the problems I have with Catholicism is that I don’t believe this is the way Jesus intended for people to worship his “father.” I think he would prefer a more social celebration.

I also don’t think Jesus would be too approving of all the extra crap the Catholic church has added to “his” religion, like all the extra dogma, doctrine, precepts and cannon, and all the extras the so called “doctors of the church” have added in.
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#4 User is offline   Cyzyk Icon

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 12:53 PM

Let's start from the beginning. Do you agree there is such a thing as sin? If you don't, obviously there's no point in discussing the finer points of it. If you do, do you agree there are varying degrees of it? That stealing candy from a Wawa is probably less wrong than raping someone to death.

QUOTE
Nature designed (and subsequently intended) human beings to have sex, and lots of it. The Catholic religion asks its constituents to suppress this primal urge - not to prevent against over population, no sir. In fact the Catholic church prohibits the use of any kind of birth control other than “family planning.” It also teaches its peeps that the sole purpose for marriage is to have children, and lots of them - hell, if we cant convert em, we’ll breed em! So you're in love and you don’t want kids. Too bad. Don’t get married.

This merits its own mention. Nature intends for sex to result in reproduction. If you don't understand that, I suggest you study some anatomy. So if you're in love and you don't want kids, you must be some kind of unnatural freak, this by you own admission. Even with our shiny science, which is quite adept at the killing people unnaturally fast, most of the methods of preventing pregnancy are less than 100% effective. Abortion doesn't count, because using salt or a vacuum to kill someone is still murder, and hardly qualifies as science.

The purpose of marriage isn't to have kids, but to raise them properly. And if you look at the incarceration rates of children of normal, married couples and everything else, you'll notice a large difference.
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#5 User is offline   Otal Nimrodi Icon

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 02:37 PM

Thank you. See, isn't it easier to talk about this in Debate?
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#6 User is offline   Chyld Icon

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 02:50 PM

Do we get numbers for the last point?

As for the whole sex thing: for any species, its best if it reproduces lots. So evolution (or design, whathaveyou) makes it so that reproducing is fun! Or at least the part that requires effort. Make of that what you will.
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#7 User is offline   Sailor Abbey Icon

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 03:43 PM

QUOTE (Cyzyk @ May 23 2006, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Do you agree there is such a thing as sin?


Uh, no.

QUOTE
Nature intends for sex to result in reproduction. If you don't understand that, I suggest you study some anatomy. So if you're in love and you don't want kids, you must be some kind of unnatural freak, this by you own admission.


Some people don’t seem to possess the strong desire to pass on their genetic code. Its quite possibly something in their make up. The only problem is, according to the Catholic church, this makes them ineligible for marriage.

QUOTE
The purpose of marriage isn't to have kids, but to raise them properly.


Well that might be how you understand it, but alas, that is not what the Catholic church teaches. Sorry.
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Posted 23 May 2006 - 03:59 PM

I'm not sure where this argument is going, but you don't believe in sin? Is murder OK then, in the eyes of God, or ought it to be? I don't follow this at all. I appreciate that you think sex is ok, and that it is for more than reproduction, but no sin at all? You sound vaguely like an atheist when you say that. Even pagan societies have rules and commandments.
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#9 User is offline   Sailor Abbey Icon

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 07:21 PM

The concept of sin is Hebrew in origin if I’m not mistaken, and in no way am I (or anyone else for that matter) required to apply it to my code of ethics for me to be an acceptable member of society.

I believe in unjust acts, but I do not believe such acts leave an indelible mark on your soul which can only be removed by the sacrament of reconciliation, the sacrament of communion (if it’s a venial sin), or any length of time in purgatory.
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#10 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 07:32 PM

Yay! a catholic bash...

i'm in

QUOTE (Sailor Abbey @ May 23 2006, 08:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My family, most of whom are devout Catholics are constantly raving about the poor Catholic Church, and oh how persecuted it is, and Jesus said this would happen, but that no matter what, the Church would never be destroyed because its His One True Church and bla bla bla ect ect.


poor? the richest organisation in the world?

QUOTE (Sailor Abbey @ May 23 2006, 08:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I hear this tripe EVERY TIME somebody talks about the Da Vinci Code, and I’m so bloody sick of it. My response, much to the dismay of my family is something like:
Allow me to elaborate.


I haven't read or seen the davinci code... but i'd like to take this opportunity to remind the general public that leonardo DaVinci was born on 15 April 1452. that's 4152 years AFTER jesus...

jesus and pals (and judas) did not pose for the 'last supper' pic.

he painted it from imagination.

QUOTE (Sailor Abbey @ May 23 2006, 08:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nature designed (and subsequently intended) human beings to have sex, and lots of it. The Catholic religion asks its constituents to suppress this primal urge - not to prevent against over population, no sir. In fact the Catholic church prohibits the use of any kind of birth control other than “family planning.” It also teaches its peeps that the sole purpose for marriage is to have children, and lots of them - hell, if we cant convert em, we’ll breed em! So you're in love and you don’t want kids. Too bad. Don’t get married.


there is no place in the bible that backs up the catholics on this... or celibacy for anyone.
although i think it's a bit redundant saying that because 'do not murder' is virtually the only part of the catholic ethos actually backed up by the bible... and i don't think anyone has actually killed more than ye olde catholic church, so it's all a little academic really.

QUOTE (Sailor Abbey @ May 23 2006, 08:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The Catholic church is losing people left and right, and none of em can seem to figure out why. Of all the Christian denominations not called Jehovah's Witnesses or The Church of Later-Day Saints, Catholicism is the most dogmatic. For every commandment, there’s a whole slew of subcommandments that fall under the category of mortal sin. And a mortal sin will send you straight to hell. If your ever so unfortunate as to have committed one, you must immediately stop what your doing and go directly to the nearest priest and ask to have your confession heard.


so much for only god can forgive... by what right does any man have to cleanse my sins?

that was the speech i gave when i was 10 at a catholic school when asked if i wanted to go to confession.

the church also likes to push the saved by works thing, which is a bit of a jesus slap really.

QUOTE (Sailor Abbey @ May 23 2006, 08:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Got a little carried away watching Monica Bellucci get naked in Brotherhood of the Wolf. Had to go and relieve a little tension… that’s called masturbation kids, and it’s a sin. It’s a mortal sin in fact. Falls under the seventh commandment of “Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery.”


again, abs... we have way too much in common.

QUOTE (Sailor Abbey @ May 23 2006, 08:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In fact every sex related incursion falls under this heading, and the repercussions are a fine mixture of guilt, shame and a one way ticket to hell. Hope that lotion doubles as a sunscreen!

So why does everybody rag on the Catholic Church you ask. I cant help but think people are sick to death of all the ridiculous rules that make less and less sense as we move into a more technological and informed world, (the rules I touched on are just the tip of the iceberg folks, it would take years to list em all) and that people are sick and tired of feeling guilty for things nature intended them to do. Like have crazy freaky premarital sex with yourself, a member of the opposite gender, or even a member of the same.


i'll tell you what my problem is...

aside from killing my anscestors and forcing us to move (although i prefer being able to say i'm dutch rather than french tongue.gif)

my first day at a catholic school, a thursday... mass day.... i saw that white round flat bread thing and thought, 'man that looks yummy' so they made me line up for communion, and then a teacher asked if iwas catholic when i was only two kids away from strange snack i've never seen in stores, and i said; 'no, i'm dutch reform' and she said "well you can go sit down:" and i said, 'to hell with your church'

so until someone sends me a full disc of unbroken catholic communion bread, and a bottle of red to wash it down, jihad jihad jihad!!! devil.gif

QUOTE (Sailor Abbey @ May 23 2006, 08:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would like to add, that I do not hate the Catholic church. I respect its traditions and I absolutely love the ritual of the Mass. What I cant stand, is the narrowminded view, that there is only ONE WAY to worship the divine. And the Catholic church is as guilty of this crime as any other monotheistic religion.


the real problem is how many rules they actually made up. it's one thing to harshly dictate a relegion to its devout bretheren, but to pull shit out of your ass and say, do these things or go to hell, is really really messed up.

people will give you shit for making fun of a relegion because its somthing sacred to people, but for the exact same reason its just so wrong to exploit people's beliefs and shape them to suit your own designs... which is what "thou shalt not use the Lords name in vain" was all about.

i think we could do a fair bit of cleansing on every relegion if everyone one just read their damn book!

at no point, for example, should any christian of any denomination ever see john edwards or post life clairvoyant. No Jew should ever be racist towards germans. No satanist should ever accept a grammy. etc. etc.

READ UP FOLKS, forget what captain blah blah tells you do... obey your own ethos and everyone might actually get along.

This post has been edited by barend: 23 May 2006 - 07:32 PM

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#11 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 07:33 PM

Im sorry Abbey, it must be hard growing up in a family of Cathelics.
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#12 User is offline   Kirby Icon

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 10:33 PM

QUOTE
poor? the richest organisation in the world?

I don't think she ment poor as in "No money" more like in "Awe Poor thing" poor. But that's getting pendantic.

On that same note, this sums up the whole Poor Catholic Church deal perfectly


Cobnat: Hey now, just because the rest of her family chooses to get up early on sunday for storytime doesn't mean that they are bad people akin to the wicked step mother and her three daughters. Family is family no matter their beliefs.
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#13 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 10:48 PM

QUOTE (Kirby @ May 23 2006, 07:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Cobnat: Hey now, just because the rest of her family chooses to get up early on sunday for storytime doesn't mean that they are bad people akin to the wicked step mother and her three daughters. Family is family no matter their beliefs.


No I ment... if her family is Cathelic, that means they are no doubt ultra-crazy conservatives... and Abbey... well... her needs are different from her families and... well it must have been hard telling them.
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#14 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 11:14 PM

Catholics are harmless, leave them alone.

I used to bash them back in the day, but whatever I've actually never had a problem with one. They are a large part of the largest religion in the world. If you consider that, along with the fact that they have a shady past, then you can conclude that it's ok to take pot shots at them.

You're allowed to insult majorities. Therefore, people will take millions of shots at the catholic church knowing fully well that they are not over stepping some boundary, like insulting Islam.

I only hear people insult Islam when they are with good friends. Catholics are mocked in every Tim Burton film, most movies in general, and literature. Keep in mind I'm only talking about the West here.

Fuck, even the Godfather included the vatican. SO catholics feel a bit abused and cry about it once and awhile, not a biggie.

The wicked pope, corrupt cardinal, evil deacon, or the molesting monk have become a favorite antagonist for many writers.

I guess it's super cool and interesting because the above mentioned are part of a 'good' organization but are acting bad and this is not what you'd expect! Plot twist!

This post has been edited by Jordan: 23 May 2006 - 11:15 PM

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#15 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 11:24 PM

Cathelics are harmless my fucking ass... but at least they arent as bad or as evil as Roman Cathelics...

Dun Dun DUN
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