[Otal Nimrodi]

If you saw a retired pro wrestler in his 60's, could you fathom that maybe he was a good pro wrestler in his 20's?

Could I use a guy who doesn't wrestle MUCH who's in his sixties?



Yes.

[Gerhard]

ILM works on model work for the Death Star. No matter how much time they spend on it, it looks awful, the tests are rejected, a different end is needed for ANH.

ILM works on stop motion animation for ESB. No matter how much time is spent on it, it looks awful against the white backdrop, the tests are rejected, and a major script change is needed.

Lucas is constrained by the limits of the technology he has to work with. This has been on the page since day one. Why are you pointing this out now?

I don't regard that as a analogy, if the Death star does not work, use something else.
At-At's don't work, use Empire like speeder's. It does no retract from the story. It does not change characters. Nor important story lines.

And if nothing works, don't make the film.
Failed to see your point.

Back in '77, SW detractors were saying exactly what you're saying now, "he put the effects over the story". In fact, a lot of people have continued to say that since SW first appeared (even though a lot of it has been mysteriously erased now that the OT has become 'accepted').

I won't comment this, since I don't read 1977 internet boards
but your point is valid.

About your other stuff, of course it could have gone either way. Like you said, its a script. All I showed you is how Lucas had had
this stuff planned out for a long time.
I personally just can't envisage the films where there wasn't some moment when the bad guys of the past 6 hours finally came out of the shadows and cast his hood back, and such a moment naturally calls for a confrontation.
Like I said, he knew Mace would die, he knew Obi would fight Ani...it almost writes itself. How can he prepare the audience for it? He can he let people know that Yoda is capable of stopping the Emperor? How can he build up the "this is it!" tension?
Have Yoda fighting in AotC.
You're thinking backwards, from the OT to the PT. If you saw a retired pro wrestler in his 60's, could you fathom that maybe he was a good pro wrestler in his 20's?

Changing the route to Palpy now, His portrait in the all SW Films (before ROTS) as a manipulator, someone in the back stage avoiding to get his hands dirty. It totally goes against his character having him jumping around with a lightsaber, besides I think he was 60 in ROTS? Again if they could not use a stunt with Mcmerdian (spell?) face photoshoped there was no fight, thus Palpy would be the a more real dictator (which is what he wants to be right?) and dictators don't fight, they send their army's do the dirty work.

That's my point. although satisfy fan boys (which, I know you don't agree with) is also a major masturbation factor for Lucas non-sense and assassination of a good story.

[jariten]

if the Death star does not work, use something else.

But you were saying that technology is what governed the stories in the PT. You said No CGI= No Fighting Yoda. I say No Model Work= No Death Star.

By simply saying "use something else" you are actually aware that this would require a serious rewrite of ANH, which is exactly what you said would have to happen in AotC if Lucas didn't have CGI!

Understand?

All Lucas has been doing all along is using the technology available to tell (in his eyes of course) the best story possible.

And no, dictators don't fight, but presumably they would if a/ they were as powerful as Sidious (who was no older than Qui Gon would was also a powerful fighter) and b/ it would've meant their death if they didn't.

Notice the first thing Sidous tries to do after blasting Yoda is try to escape.

[Gerhard]

But you were saying that technology is what governed the stories in the PT. You said No CGI= No Fighting Yoda. I say No Model Work= No Death Star.

But CGI Yoda (as in quit using a puppet and start using 100% CGI) was never done before.
Models have been used in movies like 10 years before to some degree of success, it was not as Lucas was making a gamble with the Death Star as he was with CGI Yoda.

If your point is valid, then there's no Lucas "vision", there is only technology, because we now know that if the OT was made today it was a different story, as if the PT was done in 85/87/89 there would be no Jar Jar and Yoda fighting for instance.

But I feel a contradiction in your words, since you have no problem admitting certain plot decisions where made based on whatever technology was available, but on the other hand you defend Lucas made the movies to tell his story. A story totally dependable on the technology and that major plot lines are changed because it can or cannot be done. It's his Story? or his showcase of what can and cannot be done in film technology? (and I'm including both trilogies here, so the "OT was the same" argument does not work)

Notice the first thing Sidous tries to do after blasting Yoda is try to escape.

I did not noticed that, or at least I don't remember, however it goes a lot more to his character than just start jumping around.

This post has been edited by Gerhard: 20 May 2006 - 06:05 AM

[barend]

You're thinking backwards, from the OT to the PT. If you saw a retired pro wrestler in his 60's, could you fathom that maybe he was a good pro wrestler in his 20's?

880/900

is like 88 out of 90...

given yoda's decrpid state by ROTJ i dare question his abilities only 19 years earlier...

he made a too dramatic escape for me to honestly believe his fight with palpy left him weakened...

[Otal Nimrodi]

And even if it did... THAT weakened?

[Despondent]

Every PT opening: waste of a weekend.

[Darth Player]

Every PT opening: waste of a weekend.

At least no one was camped out for months and even then in front of the wrong theatre to see any of the PT. I remember thinking I'll see it on a Monday during the first show the weekend after the big opening thinking there still would be hordes of people but less because it was a weekday and early, whereas the theatre I went to was emptier than others showing less advertised movies with no built in following or expectation of being mega-hits. Oh well.....

[Sailor Abbey]

I went to the 1st midnight showing of AOTC. I kept nodding out too. That’s WAY past my bedtime. Anyways, we ended up going to watch it a second time for some god knows why reason. That’s about the time I realized how fortunate I was during the first viewing. Strangely enough, I found myself struggling to stay awake the second time around too, only it was around 3pm instead of 3am.

[jariten]

But CGI Yoda (as in quit using a puppet and start using 100% CGI) was never done before.
Models have been used in movies like 10 years before to some degree of success, it was not as Lucas was making a gamble with the Death Star as he was with CGI Yoda.

I’m no ILM expert, sadly, but I do know that a lot of the stuff we see in ANH, and during that DS battle in particular, was actually invented by ILM and so was the first time it was used.
Again, my point is that Lucas has always used the technology available the best way he could to tell the best story possible. If he was only interested in showing off ILM’s technological prowess, he would have made the TPM Yoda CGI. He didn’t, because there was nothing in the story that required him to be so.
It’s that simple. It’s always been “use the technology to tell the story”. The only difference is that now he has a wider selection of technology to chose from. You’d be surprised how much of the PT was built from old school model work.

If your point is valid, then there's no Lucas "vision", there is only technology, because we now know that if the OT was made today it was a different story, as if the PT was done in 85/87/89 there would be no Jar Jar and Yoda fighting for instance.

I imagine they’d still be JJ (originally he was supposed to be a puppet with CGI features), but no there wouldn’t be CGI Yoda. Not because Lucas didn’t want it for the story, but because he wouldn’t have had the means to do it. Why do you think the SE’s came about? Because Lucas was frustrated with how limited he was originally. It’s my belief that if he could, Courascant would have been a main planet from day one, but without the means to make it, he was stuck with writing this story set in a desert. In that respect, his ideas have always been compromised by technology, but this is the burden that faces EVERY science fiction/fantasy director. It always has and it always will. That director has a story to tell, but has to work with, or around the parameters that the technology sets out for them.

[barend]

i really think alot of problems would be resolved if the OT:SE was abolished... the OOT was realease in maximum quality, and a a remake of the OT was made to match the PT...

everyone's happy.

[Darth Player]

i really think alot of problems would be resolved if the OT:SE was abolished... the OOT was realease in maximum quality, and a a remake of the OT was made to match the PT...

everyone's happy.

So long as the Anchorhead footage from ANH, the Wampa fight in ESB, and Sandstorm departure from ROTJ exist, Lucas will continue to milk fandom with more 'Special' editions instead of releasing a decent boxed set with all the supplemental stuff on one disk for fans.

[Despondent]

That’s about the time I realized how fortunate I was during the first viewing. Strangely enough, I found myself struggling to stay awake the second time around too

Mercy, it was awful.

they’d still be JJ (originally he was supposed to be a puppet with CGI features)

Oh, now There's a great idea.

ILM came out of crafting SW. ILM got big, and came up with new technology for other movies. Wasn't Jurrasic Park the Greatest?
The Great ILM / SW Breakthrough effects you refer to came out of the needs of producing Star Wars.

When the PT came around, ILM had the CGI down already. They had nothing to prove except that they could bring Jar-jar to life, when pressed to against all logic.
What an empty artistic legacy, they might as well be animators for Disney direct to dvd.

[Gerhard]

Again, my point is that Lucas has always used the technology available the best way he could to tell the best story possible. If he was only interested in showing off ILM’s technological prowess, he would have made the TPM Yoda CGI. He didn’t, because there was nothing in the story that required him to be so.
It’s that simple. It’s always been “use the technology to tell the story”. The only difference is that now he has a wider selection of technology to chose from. You’d be surprised how much of the PT was built from old school model work.

I was rather surprised that the water falls in Naboo are actually salt if I'm not mistaken, not CGI.

Anyway, that is not the point, the thing is, for instance, Spielberg was originally using stop motion animation for the dinosaurs in JP 1, but then used CGI after a demo from ILM, same as CGI Yoda? Not in my opinion since if we got Stop motion Dino's in JP 1 I'm sure the story would be exactly the same, maybe less well done, or more fake, but I doubt major story elements have changed. (Ok maybe they did things with CGI that which Stop Motion they wouldn't but the characters, their motivation and their action's would be exactly the same). Yoda Fighting is like Han not shooting first, it shows a Different character, and that is really my point. There's no story, there's technology.

I don't buy the OT samples you made, because, whether they did new things, the basic story line could have been told using 1930's tech.

TPM had a mixed of tradicional SFX and a lot of CGI, ROTS was almost 100% CGI, they say this in commentary. So there was an evolution from TPM to ROTS, if Lucas started the PT today would it be different? would TPM be diferent? Yoda would certainly be CGI, so why not make him jump around?

(you may say, no jump's because the story did not require Yoda to jump, fair enough, however can you prove this? we are talking about a director that has no problem changing old movies because he now can fulfill he's vision. would not the same be applied to TPM? It would not be the first time, he even changed stuff from the theatrical version of TPM to the DVD version (minor stuff, but there were changes)

Interesting stuff I found:

Tests were conducted to see if Yoda could be realized digitally but it was determined that the technology was not up to scratch. A CG model of Yoda was nevertheless created, but only used in one shot, a long shot incidentally, during the scene on Naboo near the end where Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda discuss Anakin's future.
http://www.imdb.com/...t0120915/trivia

AOTC Written before TPM? If Lucas rejected a CGI Yoda in TPM how could he include a fighting Yoda for AOTC?

This post has been edited by Gerhard: 27 May 2006 - 09:12 PM

[jariten]

We're just spinning our wheels here.

I'll say it again- all directors of fantasy/sci fi pictures are mired in the story writing process by the limits of the technology they're working with.

AGAIN: why do you think that Lucas came back and re did the old films? Because he was unsatisfied with the limits the technology placed on him. I.E, there were things locked away in his brain that he couldnt put on screen because the technology wouldn't allow it.

Your "theres no story, only technology" line could just as easily be applied to not only the OT, but every sci fi movie ever made.

No, the Death Star scene could NOT have been made without the advancements of ILMs tech, just like the Yoda scenes in AotC. I'm not sure what to say about this line either

the basic story line could have been told using 1930's tech.

Except that you can't possibly believe that.


I explained why Yoda fighting was necessary for not only AotC, but also ROTS.

Lucas did tests to make Yoda CGI in TPM as he knew what was coming (CGI Yoda) in later episodes and wanted the whole thing to mesh more. But as Yoda did not need to be CGI in TPM it didn't affect things much either way.

AOTC Written before TPM? If Lucas rejected a CGI Yoda in TPM how could he include a fighting Yoda for AOTC?

Because they still had another 3 odd years of development left to make it!