[Gerhard]

Lucas asked his henchmen to develop a CGI Yoda for TPM as practice for the AotC Yoda. The CGI Yoda may still never see the light of day.
Yes, he was only developed for AotC, because there were scenes that required him to be CGI. I'm not sure what your point is here.

TPM= puppet, because the story didn't require him to do much.
AotC= CGI, because the story required him to fight.

My point is perfectly clear.
if you don't agree with me its OK. But I'm not going to lose more time explaining something so obvious to understand. And I'm sure you understand what was my point.

And how can you show that, except with your own bias against them?

So what? you are biased towards the PT.
I showed you facts. I'm still waiting for your facts besides opinions like "So he sat down and wrote the treatments for all three before he made the first one. Who wouldn't?"

You basically just said "its technology driven because they used a lot of modern technology to create it".

You realise that you could say the same for the OT though, right?

I did not say that. I said he made plot decisions based on if they could do certain stuff or not. No CGI Yoda, no Yoda Fighting. Got CGI Yoda? Yoda Fight's.

But, I'm sure you prefer to discuss nitpick's like if a fight above lava is possible or not rather than poor story lines, lack of character motivation or terrible acting. (I know, everything in the OT is as bad as in the PT, I know)

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

This whole "bias" theory is very Bill O'Reilly-esque.

[georgelucas4greedo]

Nature finds a way.

Unless you have technology, then nature doesnt matter. Like the way the laws of nature didnt matter when Obi Wan and Vader were surfing on lava.

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

Lucas was just making SW more x-treme. Anakin totally does the Dew.

[Despondent]

These films are coming out of Lucas' own pocket.

I guess you're qualified to know.

[georgelucas4greedo]

Well it explains why the films are aimed at 10-12 year olds, so mommy and daddy can buy the merchandise to refill Lucas' pockets...

[barend]

You basically just said "its technology driven because they used a lot of modern technology to create it".

You realise that you could say the same for the OT though, right?

R2D2 flying, shoots that argument right out of the water!

[jariten]

My point is perfectly clear.
if you don't agree with me its OK. But I'm not going to lose more time explaining something so obvious to understand. And I'm sure you understand what was my point.
So what? you are biased towards the PT.
I showed you facts. I'm still waiting for your facts besides opinions like "So he sat down and wrote the treatments for all three before he made the first one. Who wouldn't?"
I did not say that. I said he made plot decisions based on if they could do certain stuff or not. No CGI Yoda, no Yoda Fighting. Got CGI Yoda? Yoda Fight's.

But, I'm sure you prefer to discuss nitpick's like if a fight above lava is possible or not rather than poor story lines, lack of character motivation or terrible acting. (I know, everything in the OT is as bad as in the PT, I know)

You show me a "fact" thats like saying "ice is cold". I just don't see what point you're trying to make with it. No CGI= no fighting Yoda. No puppets= no walking Yoda (no Yoda at all?).
Lucas is just using whatever technology is at his disposal to make the best story he can.
You taking that fact and then applying it to statements like "this proves that technology came over story" is just an opinion.
No models = no Death Star.
I don't know exactly what technology ILM invented for ANH, but I know they knocked out a few new things. Why does the story come before technology in the OT, but not the PT? is I suppose what I want to ask.

Lucas said numerous times that when writing the PT he didn't have the restrictions he had on the OT in terms of how much of his imagination he could put on screen.
We all know that he felt the original OT to be "unfinished", hense the SE's.

Technology gave him the freedom to realise what he wanted to realise with the story.
Whether you think the story he came out with was poor or not is another matter, the fact is Lucas was just using the technology (in 1977 and 1999) to tell the story he wanted.
I don’t have an exact quote, but he often says as such, “the technology is just there to help tell the story. Technology without a story is a boring thing”.

He needed Yoda to fight in AotC because he knew there would be a climatic showdown between him and the Emperor in RotS, and the audience needed to know that Yoda was capable of killing him. Even in the PT, one line of dialogue from Obi Wan aside, he just looks like a doddering old bastard. Lucas also needed to get that “wtf!” factor out of the way and get people used to the fact that Yoda is capable of kicking arse when the time comes.
He also knew Mace was going to die, and obviously that Obi was going to fight Ani. That’s why he needed Yoda fighting in AotC, and that’s how the technology was just a tool to help him tell the story.

I said he made plot decisions based on if they could do certain stuff or not

Again, how is this different from the OT?

[barend]

I can't believe people are arguing about this...

i mean you just have to watch the films. technology was as neccesary to assist in making the OT as it was to make the PT.

but the PT and SEs of the OT just took the piss. little flying freaks and silly buggery just because the tech is there, its lame... and the puppets looked better




if he'd only used the CGI when neccesary, it may have been plausable... but he used it many times where it wasn't the best option.

and that goes for green screening it aswell.

[jariten]

I’m with you on the SE’s. Although I knew he was trying to ‘fill out’ Mos Eisley for instance, it was bad because it stuck out like a sore thumb and jarred with what was already there.

[barend]

it's a bit like when you get used to an instrumental track that vocals are later added to...

it just doesn't feel right.

that and it didn't match in hue, contrast, lighting, color balance, or any of that other photoshop stuff people getting paid so much should know...

[Despondent]

I didn't like the smell.

[Gerhard]

No CGI= no fighting Yoda. No puppets= no walking Yoda (no Yoda at all?).

1978, in the process of making of Empire Strikes Back, tests are made for a puppet operated by Frank OZ.

The tests are successful, Yoda is a puppet, no changes in the script.
Lucas rejects the puppet, calls Kenny Baker or another small person, make a suit, no changes in the script.
(Lucas adjusts his "vision", Yoda was not as small has he had imagined)

(even if Lucas rejected a guy in a suit, put a woman there, no changes in the script)

2000, in the process of making of Attack of the Clones, tests are made for a CGI Yoda.

The tests are successful, Yoda is CGI, no changes in the script (assuming originally Yoda fights)
Lucas rejects the CGI Yoda, he has to continue being a puppet (Yoda, not Lucas ), a different end is needed for AOTC and major changes are done for ROTS

I don’t have an exact quote, but he often says as such,“the technology is just there to help tell the story. Technology without a story is a boring thing”.

Yes he says, but he also said the O-OT was never to be released, and it will be.

He needed Yoda to fight in AotC because he knew there would be a climatic showdown between him and the Emperor in RotS, and the audience needed to know that Yoda was capable of killing him. Even in the PT, one line of dialogue from Obi Wan aside, he just looks like a doddering old bastard. Lucas also needed to get that “wtf!” factor out of the way and get people used to the fact that Yoda is capable of kicking arse when the time comes.
He also knew Mace was going to die, and obviously that Obi was going to fight Ani. That’s why he needed Yoda fighting in AotC, and that’s how the technology was just a tool to help him tell the story.

I don't wish to offend you or anything, but you are aware the story could have gone either way? It was a guy who wrote it, it's not like it was something historical that really happened. Lucas done this way, Any other story writer would probably done it differently. So "Yoda has to fight" being important to the story is totally subjective.

(you are aware that your argument here is "Yoda had to fight because Yoda had to fight"?)

(in "my PT" neither Yoda nor Palpitine fight, why? not because of technology, but because it goes against what it was established for the characters in the OT. which you can say, that if the OT was made today, Yoda would fight, and would spend his time in Dagobah jumping around, but then again if the OT was made today I would not be here for sure, and, as a personal opinion, SW was far from being as popular as it is)

Again, how is this different from the OT?

1968, "2001: A Space Odyssey" had believable space craft models, 1969, "Planet of the apes" had guys in monkey suits who looked very real, It's not like, as LucasFilm's propaganda likes to claim, that it was never done before. It was improved sure, but knowing what technology was made in previous films, no major plot points were changed or altered due to technology, just like in the Yoda puppet in the OT example above.

This post has been edited by Gerhard: 19 May 2006 - 04:57 PM

[jariten]

2000, in the process of making of Attack of the Clones, tests are made for a CGI Yoda.

The tests are successful, Yoda is CGI, no changes in the script (assuming originally Yoda fights)
Lucas rejects the CGI Yoda, he has to continue being a puppet (Yoda, not Lucas biggrin.gif), a different end is needed for AOTC and major changes are done for ROTS

ILM works on model work for the Death Star. No matter how much time they spend on it, it looks awful, the tests are rejected, a different end is needed for ANH.

ILM works on stop motion animation for ESB. No matter how much time is spent on it, it looks awful against the white backdrop, the tests are rejected, and a major script change is needed.

Lucas is constrained by the limits of the technology he has to work with. This has been on the page since day one. Why are you pointing this out now?

Back in '77, SW detractors were saying exactly what you're saying now, "he put the effects over the story". In fact, a lot of people have continued to say that since SW first appeared (even though a lot of it has been mysteriously erased now that the OT has become 'accepted').

About your other stuff, of course it could have gone either way. Like you said, its a script. All I showed you is how Lucas had had this stuff planned out for a long time.
I personally just can't envisage the films where there wasn't some moment when the bad guys of the past 6 hours finally came out of the shadows and cast his hood back, and such a moment naturally calls for a confrontation.
Like I said, he knew Mace would die, he knew Obi would fight Ani...it almost writes itself. How can he prepare the audience for it? He can he let people know that Yoda is capable of stopping the Emperor? How can he build up the "this is it!" tension?
Have Yoda fighting in AotC.

in "my PT" neither Yoda nor Palpitine fight, why? not because of technology, but because it goes against what it was established for the characters in the OT.

You're thinking backwards, from the OT to the PT. If you saw a retired pro wrestler in his 60's, could you fathom that maybe he was a good pro wrestler in his 20's?

[Harmonica]

If you saw a retired pro wrestler in his 60's, could you fathom that maybe he was a good pro wrestler in his 20's?

Question!

Wouldn't a more accurate analogy be "If you saw a exiled magical alien space wizard in his 900's, could you fathom that maybe he was a good magical alien space wizard in his 880's?"