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Which moments in ROTS did work for you?

#151 User is offline   MyPantsAreOnFire Icon

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 07:04 PM

QUOTE (Otal Nimrodi @ May 15 2006, 07:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't like the things where a character is able to bumble into saving the world. I want to watch TPM to watch a Star Wars movie, not a Scooby Doo episode.


Exactly! Sure, some people may have a problem with a kid doing all of what we see in TPM, but I think most of us wouldn't if it was even remotely close to being handled well or presented dramatically. This child is going to grow up to be Darth Vader, and instead he's presented like he's going to grow up to be Jar Jar. It would be like making a movie about Hitler and making his childhood all sunshine and lollipops and then he randomly decides to become evil as a young adult. There is no curve in Anakin's character development into Vader. Instead, it's shown to us essentially as 2 + 2 = 5. He's a slave when we first meet him, but he's seemingly blissfully unaware of that and ends up being overwhelming happy all the time, essentially doing whatever the hell he wants. He finds out he's basically the Superman of Jedis and is taken into their ranks (with a bare minimum of fuss). He ends up in what is presented to us as a very fancy video game in space, saves the day, all while having met a stunningly beautiful woman who he will eventually marry and rock the casbah with. The ONLY truly bad thing we see happen is the death of his mother, which was at the hands of random nomads who have zero to do with anything else. He complains about Obi-Wan holding him back and being jealous, but all we ever see is Anakin acting like a jerk and a smartass and supremely arrogant once he hits puberty. He goes from a disgustingly sweet child to a bitter, coffeeshop dwelling emo kid for no reason whatsoever.

Again, show us what's being said. Obi-Wan is being too demanding or holding back? Show us that, or at least something where it could be seen how Anakin takes it that way. Instead we hear it and see NOTHING. There's no pay off. The movie fails again and again with each new plot development that ends seeming like an afterthought with absolutely zero build up or foreshadowing.
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#152 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 07:53 PM

QUOTE
In a movie, that is accomplished by saying something like, "this kid's the best pilot I've ever seen" and then we see him doing some great piloting! "This guy is the best detective in all of the city"...and then we see him being a great detective! "This guy is the best fastball pitcher I have ever seen"...and then we see him pitching incredible fastballs!


You’re making leaps and presenting things that just don’t appear in the script. Lucas takes a wide eyed, innocent kid template one second and turns him into Dan Dare the next. If there was something in the film that pointed to Luke being a great X Wing pilot, like your great detectives or baseball players, then we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
The fact is he doesn’t. Not only that, he barely even bothers to develop the “great pilot” angle at all.
The kids unexperienced, lost in the falcon (“whats that flashing?”) ecstatic when he takes out his TIE, which, when Lucas puts him up for comparison with the nearby Han, Lucas is obviously trying to say “this is the first encounter of this kind for this kid, on the other hand it’s Han’s millionth”.

It’s a massive jump to go from “bullseyeing wamp rats” on a terrestrial environment to shooting and evading highly skilled TIE pilots in space, while whipping down a metal gorge at a million miles an hour.

What’s left (a line of dialogue, a comparison to beggars canyon) just seems half arsed, and certainly not enough to address the problem that no one can adequately address- Luke managed the impossible. Not only was he untrained, he had never sat inside the cockpit of one before. We can say “here’s some evidence that flying is easy and anyone can do it”, or “here’s a driver that changed vehicles and did really well” (although we’ve been over that), or even “well, a T16 is probably a bit like an X Wing”, but in the end you’re just filling in the holes in Lucas’ script.

“I’m not such a bad pilot myself”. Luke, you’re a full on miracle worker, don’t sell yourself short.
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#153 User is offline   DragonLord Icon

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 07:54 PM

Wow this discussion just never ends. It's amazing how much effort it takes to explain something trivial to human beings so that they start understanding. Let me reiterate what a couple of people including myself have written on this topic.

In ANH, we hear that Luke is a pilot. Like Barend said, Luke had directions to an unguarded weakness. He knew where to aim. With the help of Obi-Wan, he trusted himself to use the force in order to make that difficult shot and save the day.

Anakin is a podracer. TPM doesn't imply anywhere that Anakin has ever flown a ship, which is highlighted by the fact that he can't even find the trigger at first when he's in the fighter.
He flies - by accident - into the starbase. He presses a few buttons and - by accident - destroys the main target. The keyword here is "accident".

Understand the difference?


Like Otal says:

ANH = StarWars
TPM = Scooby Doo

End of story.
People there is nothing more that can be said in this argument. I honestly believe that it is ridiculous to even contemplate to compare these two endings, but that is just my opinion. If they don't understand, then so be it.
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#154 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 08:02 PM

That wasn't the original idea though.

I brought them up to say "they're both equally unrealistic".
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#155 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 09:45 PM

and you failed. all arguments against yours have been made multiple times and in multiple ways from multiple angles by multiple people.

your choice to ignore these points, or one while adressing another can be considered little more than intentional antagonism. I assume you're doing this to force people into flamming you and thereby getting the thread shut down...

i'm sorry that is all i'm left to be able to belive given that you attack using arguments i've redundified.

you've wasted everbody's time. and seriously, i don't see why i should give you any more of mine...

stop being a wanker...

yipee i wonder if it spins, crash, the bad guys are dead, is not comparable.

and a kid with THAT much skill and repair +20 blah blah blah... would have been herd of and taken by jabba or someone. there wasn't one fucking realistic thing about anikans existance, and you know it...

PT is to OT what Avril levigne is to fugazi
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#156 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 10:31 PM

If I failed, why do you waste your time responding? Just stop. It's the internet. You have that option.

I'm just stating what I always thought about that scene- it's unrealistic, but who cares?

I've heard all the arguments- it's in his character, it's clearly explained that he's a great pilot, you don't need your hand held etc.

Except that doesn't exist on screen, only in the plugs you bring along to fill in the gaps yourselves (toys and "hostile environments" for instance).

Seriously, I maintain that if this were any other film you'd be all over it, shouting about how dumbed down and stupid films are nowadays and how can anyone buy this crap.

You tell me that Luke was a good pilot. OK.

To me it seems like taking a kid who Lucas clearly wanted to be described using words like "naive" and "inexperienced", through to being Dan Dare in a hostile environment, in space, using a ship that was totally alien to him, with 3 lines of dialogue and a kid playing with toys (your attempt not mine) just doesn't seem like enough.

Lucas didn't care about realism or exposition as much as he cared about pacing. What's wrong with that concept?
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#157 User is offline   diligent_d Icon

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 10:53 PM

Luke flying an X-wing to destroy the Death Star = 5/10 on the unrealistic meter
Anakin flying an Naboo craft to destroy the Droid Ship = 10/10 on the unrealistic meter

Yes, both are unrealistic. Bottom line though - one is far more unrealstic than the other.
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#158 User is offline   MyPantsAreOnFire Icon

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 10:55 PM

QUOTE (jariten @ May 15 2006, 08:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You’re making leaps and presenting things that just don’t appear in the script. Lucas takes a wide eyed, innocent kid template one second and turns him into Dan Dare the next.


That's the point. This isn't a bad thing. I wish he had done the same in the PT. He didn't. I'll readily admit over and over again that what Luke did IS absurd if you take a long, hard look at it. But it's framed by a movie that's pretty absurd up and down...it's fantasy. That's what fantasy is. What holds it together is it's framed well. Everything happens for a reason. I think a lot of that can be hinged on how limited the fx tech was at the time. Lucas had to make it all stick together or else nobody sticks around for the ride. Yeah, it's pretty flimsy overall...but it works. It's a template that has existed as long as movies have been made. ANH just took it a much bigger level. This film is not supposed to be overcomplicated, and you're trying to make it that way.

QUOTE
If there was something in the film that pointed to Luke being a great X Wing pilot,


You mean besides seeing him destroy the Death Star?

The point of my comparisons is in films you often are described what makes the character unique or special and then you see them do it, usually to an even greater degree. It's exciting! Take The Natural. Robert Redford is an old baseball player...his glory days are behind him. People talk about what could have been and how good he was, and lo and behold, we see him display those skills until finally, wracked with injuries, he smashes a ball into the lights above the stadium, unleashing a shower of sparks as he rounds the bases. It's absurd. It's ridiculous. Nothing we've seen or heard has shown he should be able to do anything even remotely close to that. And yet, he did! And we go with it! It's a movie! That character makes that final "push" and ends up being the hero! This isn't rocket science! Come on, man...

QUOTE
Not only that, he barely even bothers to develop the “great pilot” angle at all.


Because, honestly, there's too much going on. When are they supposed to cram this in? It's not like they had almost half an hour to blow on a useless race that kindasortamaybenotreallynotatall reinforces how good a pilot the character is. We're told he's a good pilot. The first chance he's given to fly, he IS a good pilot, plus he's got the Force (which if you're buying into that, not seeing Luke in a lfight sim is the least of your worries)...my hero! The day is won! The fact he's blowing up what looks like a giant metal tit that can destroy planets makes not having seem him train at all seem irrelevant. I do not understand how you tell people they need to suspend belief to enjoy the PT, and then criticize the same people for actually doing that with a movie like ANH, where it works.

QUOTE
The kids unexperienced, lost in the falcon (“whats that flashing?”) ecstatic when he takes out his TIE, which, when Lucas puts him up for comparison with the nearby Han, Lucas is obviously trying to say “this is the first encounter of this kind for this kid, on the other hand it’s Han’s millionth”.


So you're slamming movie for doing these things right? Why is he supposed to know how to fly a ship like the Falcoln? Why is he supposed to be a jaded mercenary-type? If he's going to be blaise about fragging Tie Fighters like it happens every Tuesday, what is the point of having Solo's character in the first place? Luke's "farmboy" persona is set to emphasize ultimately just how powerful the Force is. Remember, this before the Force was a mutated cell and it meant you could do cool flips and ninja kicks and twirl lightsabers like cheerleaders. It was vague and mysterious and supposed to be impressive! What better way to emphasize that than by setting it up so that this kid being in tune with the Force basically allows/helps him to destroy the biggest weapon in the galaxy? And you've done it within the classic mythology/fanatasy mold...naive boy saves the day and becomes a man...a hero! And not by accident in a cutesy slew of high-larious accidents and goofs. Whoopsies!

QUOTE
It’s a massive jump to go from “bullseyeing wamp rats” on a terrestrial environment to shooting and evading highly skilled TIE pilots in space, while whipping down a metal gorge at a million miles an hour.


It's a massive jump to buy almost anything in this film. Why does Luke get bitch slapped in this movie by the Sand People yet can escape from and lop the arm off of a snow monster in ESB? We didn't SEE him practicing his "I don't wanna get beat down like a girl" skills, yet clearly they've improved. In fact, why do you buy he can fly the snow speeders in ESB? Or the bike in ROTJ? Nothing on Tattooine would prepare him for such vehicles or climates. Almost everything we see in these films happens for the first time without seeing anyone training or practicing or graduating with a major in or whatever. You're reaching!

QUOTE
What’s left (a line of dialogue, a comparison to beggars canyon) just seems half arsed, and certainly not enough to address the problem that no one can adequately address- Luke managed the impossible.


That's the point! That's why he's a hero! Kid's a decent pilot, kid's now got the Force "flowing through him"...kid does the impossible. How do you stand watching ANY kind of popcorn movie, which rely on someone doing something impossible to save the day?

QUOTE
Not only was he untrained, he had never sat inside the cockpit of one before. We can say “here’s some evidence that flying is easy and anyone can do it”, or “here’s a driver that changed vehicles and did really well” (although we’ve been over that), or even “well, a T16 is probably a bit like an X Wing”, but in the end you’re just filling in the holes in Lucas’ script.


See what I said above about us seeing anyone do ANYTHING in these films, especially Luke. By your logic, seeing him do anything besides farming whatever the hell they farm on Tattooine is complete bullshit.

QUOTE
“I’m not such a bad pilot myself”. Luke, you’re a full on miracle worker, don’t sell yourself short.


Hence why so many people love this movie so much. And why NOT having something like this in any of the PT films is a huge flaw for them. The OT is packed with flaws and nitpicks, but this is not one of them.
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#159 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 11:37 PM

Jariten. it's quite simple.

if i stop arguing you say; "see he can't argue anymore, so he stopped because he knows he's wrong."

well fuck that.


it's a film.

we followed the hero.

it's not a remarkable coincidence that the guy we followed won. the guy won, we followed his story, that's how it works. if we were following the story from the point of view of it unfolding as opposed to a long time ago yadda yadda yoda... then we probably would have followed biggs and then gone; 'oh crap! he's dead... i hope his young friend he said alot about managed to blow that fucker up'

this is story telling. the young hero, with battle in his blood takes up a sword and fights for what he believes in. against all odds he becomes a victor... the bad guys underestemate him, the audience thinks he can't do it, but there was alot riding on him, and he pulled through.

farmboy makes good, like some young english potato farmer who gets drafted and they say 'here's a gun... point it at the bad guy and pull the trigger' or some aussie farmboy who reads all these magazines on motor GP and rides lesser bikes on his first day out on the big boys he kicks major ass!, or etc.

It wasn't probable but it happened. out history is full of stories like this, some people have a natural affinity for things.

as for the naive, thing i know heaps of people just like that description, who through personal interset are absolute freaks about things like racing or whatever...

but a fucking 9 year old... fuck off. that's just dumb. if i wanted that i would have watched spy kids or lava girl and shark boy...

you're just taking the piss now!

and don't give me this reaching for straws crap...
that would be you and we all know it.
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#160 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 12:15 AM

QUOTE
bumble
tongue.gif

Back to the topic of which moments in ROTS DID work for you?

I'd say the moments (post order sixty6) Obi-wan was underwater. Maybe his lizard is going to drown, hopefully? Gosh! This reminds me of the positive optimism I was holding onto with the first underwater scenes from TPM. Always a bigger letdown.
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#161 User is offline   SithAvenger Icon

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 12:52 AM

QUOTE (diligent_d @ May 16 2006, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Luke flying an X-wing to destroy the Death Star = 5/10 on the unrealistic meter
Anakin flying an Naboo craft to destroy the Droid Ship = 10/10 on the unrealistic meter

Yes, both are unrealistic. Bottom line though - one is far more unrealstic than the other.


That's exactly what I think.
Sorry, you won't be seeing a smartass sig here. Try with the next poster.
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#162 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 05:45 AM

QUOTE
I'll readily admit over and over again that what Luke did IS absurd if you take a long, hard look at it. But it's framed by a movie that's pretty absurd up and down...it's fantasy.


Thats what i've been saying for the last 4 pages.

It's absurd, but I can swallow it nicely. etc.
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#163 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 06:52 AM

Yes. Exactly.

So, who's down for some pizza? I really could use something to eat now.

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#164 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 06:20 PM

how about some lava.

aparently everyone can eat THAT!
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#165 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 08:08 PM

Just because you can survive on it doesn't mean you have a taste for it. smile.gif
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