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Which moments in ROTS did work for you?

#121 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 03:21 AM

... hey... wait a sec... that's right. Boy, am I glad that I'm not a starwars-geek now... me poor head would be all confuzzled. wacko.gif

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#122 User is offline   Sailor Abbey Icon

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 07:47 AM

QUOTE (jariten @ May 11 2006, 12:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Are you suggesting that anyone can just leap in one, know immediatly how to operate one, and then take on the Empire?

Well, no, apparently not, because all of his highly trained pals die while the UNTRAINED TEENAGER who had sat in the thing for the first time 20 minutes prior to the battle makes it through.


I gotta say, I’ve been in the cockpit of many an aircraft, and its pretty much all the same. I know an assload of pilots and pretty much any of em will tell you, if you can fly a heavy (a large transport type aircraft) you can fly a fighter. That goes pretty much the same for international aircraft as well.

Just figured I’d throw that out there.
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#123 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 06:55 PM

jaritens just chasing his own tail now... the conversation should have moved by now... everytime he quotes me he attacks it ignoring a prior quote that redundified his current argument.

it's getting a little pointless now...
---------------
BIGGS: You ought to take it easy Luke. You may be the hottest
bushpilot this side of Mos Eisley
---------------
BEN: He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior.
I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself.
---------------
HAN: But who's going to fly it, kid! You?

LUKE: You bet I could. I'm not such a bad pilot myself! We don't have
to sit here and listen...
---------------
BIGGS: Sir, Luke is the best bushpilot in the outer rim territories.
---------------
RED LEADER: I met your father once when I was just a boy, he was a
great pilot. You'll do all right. If you've got half of your father's
skill, you'll do better than all right.
---------------
---------------
hmmm.... they seem to be trying to tell us something in this film... but what?

don't be a lamewad, jariten. you know you're argument is completely hollow. you'll just have to find something else to attack to try and pwoove us big nasty pwequel bashing bullies wwong....
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#124 User is offline   DragonLord Icon

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 08:39 PM

Obviously Luke is a pilot. What's more, he knew what had to be done to destroy the Death-Star.
He aimed, using the force, and fired.

Anakin: Where's the trigger? Oops, wrong one.. Maybe this one....

Anakin on the other hand couldn't find the trigger at first, and when he destroyed the federation-starbase he did it by accident by pressing all the buttons availabe.

To clarify: Luke is a pilot

The end
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#125 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 11:34 PM

If by saying "Luke is a pilot" you actually mean "Luke shouldn't be a good pilot" then I agree with you.

This conversation annoys me. Just like jariten said, for Barend and his gang of supporters the reasons they give for justifying that an immature, overconfident farm boy can destroy the Empire's massive weapon would be classified as excuses if anything in the PT was being justified.

I just cannot comprehend how people can see that situation with Luke as believable. It really requires a child's imagination.
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#126 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 11:48 PM

i guess you've never heard of the Red Baron...

there are many young heros in war in our history, there are people who won battles their first time out.

the whole thing that makes it a worthwhile story is that fact that it wasn't likley that he would win. the odds were stacked against him, that's what makes it a gripping story. But you seem disasatisfied that the rebellion won without building a bigger death star and filling it with veterans.

and don't accuse me of double standards, the whole point of this forum is that we expected something as good as the OT, and it wasn't delivered...

i'm not one of these dorks who put 'jedi' down in his religion, i just like a good movie when i see one, and thought three were on offer, sadly they weren't. you're the ones with the 'lucas can do no wrong' attitude and suddenly jump to the defence.

jaritan and you tried to give it back to us, but you didn't have the material...

i'm sorry, you've really lost this one, and the sooner you realise the more dignified you'll feel at the end of it.

and what's this "Barend and his gang of supporters " crap...
it's not my website, or list of reasons.
huh.gif
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#127 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 11:54 PM

I don’t see how any of that dialogue helps resolve the stupidity of an untrained teenager stepping into a ship HE’S NEVER EVEN SAT IN BEFORE MUCH LESS TRAINED IN and destroy the Death Star, the biggest, baddest and most important weapon in the all powerful galaxy spanning Empire.

What, you’re seriously, SERIOUSLY telling me that the line describing Luke as “quite a good pilot” ("quite"?! Someone described me as quite a good artist once...) makes you believe the scene has even an ounce of realism in it? (And I like the cut line of dialogue you resorted to quoting too, and this from the “if its not in the films its not important!” guy).

I find that unbelievable, like some of the kids over at TheForce.Net trying to rationalize some of the crap in TPM.

I mean, whats a bushpilot again? Someone who has the miraculous ability to gain full mastery of a military ship and its weapons systems, instantly becoming more proficient in the ship than his other, highly trained comrades and highly trained enemies just by sitting in it for a few seconds? If so, then I take back what I said, although I don’t remember any of that stuff being in the film to be honest.

Why can’t you see that all Lucas had the time in this film to do was to add a few lines of dialogue to quickly pull the wool over our eyes for a few minutes and hope that we just don’t think about it too much? Is it so bad to say “I can just suspend my disbelief and enjoy it”? There’s a flimsy scene in ANH every 20 minutes.

Like I said, the only reason he gets through is because the script is tied together with loose string and has the line “Luke destroys the Death Star” written on it.
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#128 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 01:05 AM

i just found a copy of the script and posted every bit of dialogue that came up from ctrl-f 'pilot'

they were all about luke save for two about han.

the 'quite a good pilot' line is comming from a guy Luke doesn't even know. when luke describes 'ben' as that crazy old hermit, i rather got the impression that he didn't come around to dinner every thursday and have beru tell him shit.

Ben, a hermit i might ass again, had actually heard of Luke's pilot and heard that it was in fact worth hearing about. ergo, the muthafucker could fly a mean ship!!!

FOR CHRISTS SAKE, IF EVERYONE'S SO FUCKING HAPPY THAT 4' TALL GIRLS ARE DRIVING AROUND IN FOUR WHEEL DRIVES WITHOUT A TRUCK LISCENCE, I CAN'T BELIEVE A PILOT OF REPUTATION, THAT REACHES EVEN HERMITS IS BEYOND CAPACITY IN PILOTING !?!

dude!

I'm not rationalizing anything... i'm explaining how movies work to people who's minds have been fucked up by needlessly lazy stupid films.

i'm sorry, should they have had luke in a pod race for 30 minutes? would that have settled you the way it did on phantom menarse?!?






of course i realize you're not a dialogue heavy enjoyer of stories. smile.gif

just, BOOM, cool, another explosion, yipeeee!
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#129 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 01:51 AM

*Barand’s patroniz-o-meter now at 88% capacity*

I can believe Anakin can pilot a pod because the film clearly shows that he has been piloting pods for a while. Yes, it shows it. Even if it was just dialogue, I could believe it if they talked about Anakin and pods (how good he was etc.) and then we saw him being skilled in pod racing, because that’s the same type of vehicle he was connected with earlier. I could even believe that he was a good podracer if we saw him flying around in something that wasn’t a pod racer but had a similar design, feel etc.

The trouble with Luke’s miraculous victory at the end of ANH is that Lucas doesn’t even give us that, he gives us a miracle (which it was) with nothing to hang it off.

He does it in the equally stupid ending to TPM too, where Anakin should clearly have been killed, or at the very least have crashed and died as soon as he had control of the ship.
So I’m guessing you found the ending of TPM realistic too, right? Going by your logic, you should find even more to love in TPM than in ANH. In ANH we only get about 3 lines of suspect dialogue (and one of them was from Luke!), at least in TPM we see that Anakin is proficient in some kind of extremely high speed maneuvering in life or death circumstances.

But of course you’ll say no.

You say “God, people need everything explained to them, you’re such an idiot!”. Which is funny, since you always come out with “If it’s not in the movies, it doesn’t count!”, yet there’s barely enough justifiable evidence in ANH to prove that Luke was anywhere near the level of skills he magically learned only minutes after first sitting in the X Wings cockpit. It’s also funny because I’ve come out with the “You don’t need everything explained to you, some stuff is obvious” line when defending the PT in places, to which you’ve always replied again “If it’s not in the movies…you’re just making excuses”

I know you’ll come back with, “but it was in the movies! Look at these three lines of dialogue I quoted!”

Like I said before though, those three lines of dialogue don’t even begin to explain Luke’s miracle that is, for me, the second biggest Switch Your Brain Off moment in the OT, after the Ewoks beating the Stormtroopers farce in RotJ.

If there was an equivilant moment to this in the PT you'd be all over it in a second, complaining how dumbed down the movies of today are, how stupid people are to enjoy this crap! (wait there is, its Anakin vs. the Trade Feds. Your thoughts on that if you will. "Its stupid! How can I believe that a kid with no training can step into a ship he's never piloted before and destroy a space station!")

I wish you'd actually step back and take a look at what Star Wars is.
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#130 User is offline   Black Dog Icon

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 02:45 AM

Hi, normally I am a reader, not a writer, but this is just my 2 cents worth thrown in. Barend was talking about motorcycles a few posts ago, discussing Luke ability to jump in an X-Wing, so I will do the same thing. Valentino Rossi just jumped into Ferrari's formula one car a couple of weeks ago and was posting lap times pretty close to Schumacher's right off the bat. I think Ferrari signed him up for next year. Maybe Barend is the only guy here who knows about Rossi, but he is a mortorcycle rider, and not a car driver. If a guy can go straight from MotoGP to F1 and get a contract, I don't see why Luke can't go from his t16 to an X Wing and fly it.

Luke at least thought he knew what he was doing, tried, and succeeded. Anakin on the other hand, had no idea what he was doing and succeeded anyway. I seem to remember Luke even took over the squadron and was giving orders after the real leaders were blown up, because he was confidant in his abilities.

Anakin in the ship was not stupid in itself - but the fact that he was clearly inept, (rather that a young Darth Vader with the force with him) made it stupid. Why wasn't he as confident in that space ship as he was in the pod. That's almost all it would have taken for me to make the jump from stupidity to believability.
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#131 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 04:23 AM

http://en.wikipedia....Valentino_Rossi

QUOTE
Rossi tested the Ferrari in 2006 on January 31, February 1, and February 2 at Valencia. The first day saw Rossi spin out on the damp track into the gravel trap ending his day.


Luke leapt into the X Wing and was a master (outstripping highly trained pilots on both sides, btw) in minutes.

This can't be rationalised. All we can do is shrug our shoulders and get caught up in the moment.
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#132 User is offline   Sailor Abbey Icon

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 08:03 AM

QUOTE (jariten @ May 12 2006, 05:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
http://en.wikipedia....Valentino_Rossi
Luke leapt into the X Wing and was a master (outstripping highly trained pilots on both sides, btw) in minutes.

This can't be rationalised. All we can do is shrug our shoulders and get caught up in the moment.


Maybe it was his destiny to survive and succeed where others crashed and failed.


Personally, I find his ability to pilot a ship entirely believable. Even if he was a little shaky at first, getting the feel for it and all, after a good 10 minutes of screwing with the controls it probably would have been pretty straight forward.

Again, I feel it necessary to reference real life pilots who will vouch for the ease of learning to fly an aircraft. I have heard it said many times that "a monkey could do it."

If a monkey could do it, I wonder how easy it would be for an already decent pilot who has a mystical force at his disposal.

QUOTE (Storm @ May 12 2006, 12:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I just cannot comprehend how people can see that situation with Luke as believable.


Sounds like a personal problem.

QUOTE (jariten @ May 12 2006, 12:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don’t see how any of that dialogue helps resolve the stupidity of an untrained teenager stepping into a ship HE’S NEVER EVEN SAT IN BEFORE MUCH LESS TRAINED IN and destroy the Death Star, the biggest, baddest and most important weapon in the all powerful galaxy spanning Empire.


Maybe he got some simulator time beforehand. Or maybe a t-16 is EXACTLY like an x-wing. Or maybe he used the force. Or maybe its actually really easy to fly an x-wing. How do you know either way?

This post has been edited by Sailor Abbey: 12 May 2006 - 07:59 AM

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#133 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 09:02 AM

This calls for a book reference... let's see...

Leader Blue: "Aren't you Luke Skywalker? Did you train in the Incom T 65?"

Alright. T-16s were those speeders, T 65s were the predecessors of the X-Wings. Luke flew both apparently. And then there's this...

Leader Blue: "Ain't a big difference between an X-Wing-T 65 and a skyjumper." His smile suddenly looked wild. "Only the maxium load is of a different kind..."

There. X-Wings are military T-65s. Luke trained on the normal ones back on Tattooine. No big deal. He's a pro.

This post has been edited by Gobbler: 12 May 2006 - 09:03 AM

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Pop quiz, hotshot. Garry Kasparov is coming to kill you, and the only way to change his mind is for you to beat him at chess. What do you do, what do you do?
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#134 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 09:54 AM

It must suck to feel compelled to defend the PT.
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#135 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 10:09 AM

Yeah, poor defenders. sleep.gif

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Pop quiz, hotshot. Garry Kasparov is coming to kill you, and the only way to change his mind is for you to beat him at chess. What do you do, what do you do?
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